Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

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Bill Duncan
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Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Bill Duncan » November 29th, 2003, 12:47 pm

I'm becoming increasingly confused about the parentage of the effect known as Printing. I bought the VHS version of Duviviers version to get the special cards and on the video he explains that he showed the trick to Daryl but did not give him permission to market it. I found this suprising as Daryls version is both excellent and quite a bit different from the one I bought.

But now, just the other day, Im flipping through the pages of the November/December 1988 issue of (Tannens) Magic Manuscript and on the back inside page I see an add for:
Wild Cards 2010 Printer"
The effect description exactly matches the Duvivier effect and the ink drawing illustration shows a card with the Atlantis card box design, which is the same brand of cards used in the set that was included with my VHS tape. There is no credit to Duvivier in the ad, only the cryptic note that the effect was refined by the famous Sam Schwartz.

Now, I know very little about Mr. Schwartz and Im well aware of Tannens reputation, so rather than draw my own conclusions I thought Id see if any of the New York gang, or Mr. Racherbaumer can shed any light on this.

Im very fond of the effect and Id like to have my credits sorted out. If the effect is, as I suspect, DDs then what did Mr. Schwartz add to the version marketed by Tannens.

Or am I just opening a can of worms?

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Pete Biro
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Pete Biro » November 29th, 2003, 4:33 pm

Sounds like a large can that SHOULD be opened.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 29th, 2003, 11:04 pm

It was my understanding that Daryl DID have permission to sell Duvivier's trick "Printing." He also included his own version. He was requiredto buy the Belgian Atlantis cards from Duvivier. It was only through the number of sets of cards bought that Duvivier knew exactly how much he should be paid by Daryl. At some point Duvivier became convinced that Daryl was trying to avoid paying him by having the necessary cards printed with Bicycle backs.
So, that's the story on that end of it.
Daryl's handling of "Printing" simply eliminated the sleights so he felt he could sell more.
As to whether or not the trick is Duvivier's, I don't know. It is certainly not a new trick and Duvivier has been doing it for decades. It is certainly possible that Sam Schwartz might have put out a version years ago.
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Bill Duncan
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Bill Duncan » November 30th, 2003, 12:38 pm

Richard,
On the video DD states that he created the effect in "the seventies" which clearly predates the Tannen's ad (1988) by as much as a decade.

With the exception of a line in the ad which states that a blank FACE changes to match the card case (it's actually the back of the ten of hearts) the description matches DD's effect exactly.

Your statement clears up his comments which were basically;
I sold some to Daryl Martinez but I never gave him the rights to make them.

Sounds like he isn't happy about Daryl's reworking of the effect. Personally, I think Presto Printo is a great variation of the original effect and changed enough that it's practically a different trick.

I like the original but the handing is a bit odd and I couldn't come up with a reason why some of the cards where tens and some were blank.

I've managed to put together a set using the new "FAKO deck" set of cards and some other stuff that I had laying around so that I can show blank face cards and have them copy a selection, after which things get a bit out of hand. It's a nice combination of Daryl's ideas with some of the original transformations and some handing of my own.

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Pete Biro
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Pete Biro » November 30th, 2003, 1:37 pm

Is this the effect where your necktie design and even part of your face winds up printed on a card? :confused:
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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 30th, 2003, 3:12 pm

Yes Pete...if you had a green tie (based on the set sold by Daryl). Or, if you were clever, the final card could be whatever you wished it to be.

I have the same belief as Richard: It seems to me--quite vividly--that Daryl did indeed have selling rights, but the base product came from Duvivier.

Dustin

Bill Duncan
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Bill Duncan » November 30th, 2003, 5:50 pm

You can see a video demo of Presto Printo at Penguin Magic .

Basically set set of doubleblank cards take on the identity of a selected card (10 of spades) and then print in various odd ways (spots over the back pattern, smeared your your fingertips, etc.

The original effect is more abstract and harder to describe.

I wonder if Daryl still sells the original cards too or if you only get the ones in his set?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 30th, 2003, 6:59 pm

If you like the "Printing" effect, then you'll probably like his trick deck "Chameleon Cards" even better, since it prints all kinds of other things as well. I believe it's in the book I published. Don't know how you can order the deck at the moment. Perhaps Denny has it.
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Guest » December 1st, 2003, 9:28 am

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Don't know how you can order the deck at the moment. Perhaps Denny has it.
Denny does have the Duvivier's version of the deck listed on his website {LINK} , and Elms Magic has Daryl's version {LINK} as does Cards By Martin {LINK}

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Rennie
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Rennie » December 1st, 2003, 1:53 pm

I have Daryl's effect " Chameleon Cards" and it is a packet trick and does not include a deck.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Rennie
The effect is the important thing, how you achieve is not !!

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 1st, 2003, 2:06 pm

Daryl's trick Chameleon Cards has NOTHING to do with the Duvivier Chameleon Deck. Entirely different. If I recall correctly, Daryl's trick is a version of Bro. Hamman's "Magic Cards."
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Pete Biro
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Pete Biro » December 1st, 2003, 7:12 pm

I find that the word "version" is the most used word in the magic world. At least it is my version of the story... :confused:
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Bill Duncan
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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Bill Duncan » December 1st, 2003, 8:36 pm

Richard,
Thanks for the tip. It reads like a nice effect.

Daryl's "Cardboard Chameleons" is a like "The Magic Cards" on steroids but it's without a doubt the hardest packet trick ever created. His "Kissing To Be Clever" is much easier.

My own version of "The Magic Cards", which extends the effect by causing the audience to imagine an impossible solution to how the trick works, can be found here .

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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Oliver Corpuz » December 1st, 2003, 8:44 pm

Bill is correct, Daryl's packet trick that was part of his FISM winning act is called "Cardboard Chameleons" not Chameleon Cards.

Cardboard Chameleons is a very magical routine, but it is not easy to do and requires lots of practice to make the combo count and two/four counts smooth and convincing.

In the directions, Daryl does credit Brother Hamman for independently developing the similar but not exactly the same, 2-for-4 count, and Daryl also credit's Hamman for the Flustration count used in the routine.

Presto Printo is Daryl's packet trick that is similar to Duvivier's Printing. I believe Daryl does credit Duvivier's Printing effect in the instructions. (Got to locate that instruction sheet to verify).

I understand that Daryl on his foolerdoolers.com website still sells both Chameleon Cards and Presto Printo. You can also get alternate cards for Presto Printo so you can repeat the effect with different cards.

- Oliver

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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Oliver Corpuz » December 1st, 2003, 9:10 pm

OK, I managed to locate my Presto Printo Instructions, which state that Daryl did market Duvivier's Printing effect with Daryl's simplified handling from July 1988 to April 1994, when Presto Printo was released.

Daryl writes that what he offers (Presto Printo) is as different from "Printing" by Duvivier as "Printing" is from the original "Wild Card" by Peter Kane. Daryl also lists six reasons how Presto Printo is an improvement over the original "Printing" effect.

I believe Printing and Presto Printo are more similar than Daryl claims, but I certainly do not think Daryl neither failed to credit Duvivier's Printing effect for inspiring Presto Printo nor do I believe Daryl failed to get permission to market Duvivier's Printing effect with his simplified handling. If Daryl didn't have permission, it would make no sense to mention that he marketed Duvivier's printing from 1988 to 1994 in the Presto Printo instructions. Stating publicly that you marketed someone else's effect would not be a good idea if you didnt have permission to do so.


- Oliver

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Re: Printing by Dominique Duvivier or ?

Postby Daryl » December 24th, 2003, 11:08 am

As I read over this post, I realize that its a bit long winded and Ive gone into more detail than was probably necessary. Having said that, I usually think its better to give more information than needed than not enough.

My good friend Rich Marotta mentioned to me the discussion about Dominique Duviviers Printing and my Presto Printo and suggested that I set the record straight. I just joined the Genii Forum so that I would have the opportunity to do just that.

Richard Kaufman in his post on November 29, 2003 was 100% correct. Of course I had marketing rights to sell Dominique Duviviers Printing effect. I purchased literally thousands of sets of cards from Dominique himself in order to sell them. I made my intentions very clear to Dominique before I began purchasing the cards. I would purchase the special cards from him, which I would include with his original instructions along with the instructions of my simplified handling for his effect. I planned to perform, teach this item in my lectures and I would sell it through my mail order business, at my lectures, and at magic conventions. At my lectures, I mentioned the idea of printing the last card with the pattern of your necktie or anything else youd card to duplicate. I believe it was Scotty York who came up with the idea of printing is face.

Over the years, I purchased several thousands of sets of cards from Dominique and I gave him probably between twenty and thirty thousand dollars worth of business. His discount price structure to me was interesting. I was to purchase a minimum of 300 sets per order and the price per set would be reduced by .50 a set for each subsequent order in each one year period. The price per set began, I believe, at $9.00 a set and the maximum discount would be $6.50 a set (this figure I know for sure). So the first order of 300 sets would be at $9.00 each ($2,700.00 plus shipping), the next order in the same 365 day period would be at $8.50 per set ($2,550.00 plus shipping), the third order at $8.00 per set ($2,400.00 plus shipping) etc. This would continue until I had reached the maximum discount level of $6.50 per set (300 x $6.50 = $1,950.00 plus shipping). As soon as the 365 day purchase period had ended, the price would go back up to $9.00 per set and the next purchasing year would begin.

There was probably a year or two when I never made it to the maximum discount level and I remember suggesting to Dominique that he consider selling me the cards at $6.50 per set if I agreed to purchase the sets in a much larger quantity all at once. Dominique did not agree to this idea. In my last year of doing business with Dominique, I did what I thought was the logical thing to do. I had reached the maximum discount level and I decided to purchase and additional 900 or 1,200 sets at the $6.50 price before the end of the current 365 day purchase period. I didnt need these cards, but sales had begun to slow down and I thought it would be smart to keep these in reserve as I felt that this would be my last order. Several months later, Dominique called me (actually, I think it was his daughter) and I was asked why I hadnt purchased any cards lately. I told her that I didnt need them anymore and this may have been when Dominique became convinced that I was printing the cards with Bicycle backs.

For the record, I have never printed Dominiques effect with Bicycle backs. There was a short period of time when I did sell a few sets with Bicycle backs, but I purchased these sets from Neil Lester of Cards by Martin. I felt that I did an honorable thing by only selling the special Bicycle sets to customers who had already purchased the original set which were printed on Atlantis cards and wanted to perform the routine with Bicycle cards. No instructions were included and they had to show me the original set and package before I would sell them the Bicycle set. Perhaps Dominique heard that I was selling Bicycle sets and he assumed that I was having them printed to avoid having to purchase the cards from him. If this is true, I think that this should have been the time for Dominique to contact me personally. He didnt.

I heard from several friends that Dominique made a comment on his Printing videotape that could easily be interpreted to imply that I was a thief. I dont have the video, but I believe he said something like I never gave Daryl the rights to market (or manufacture) this effect. This is true, he never did give me the rights to manufacture his trick and I never did. I did, however, have the rights to market his trick and in the process, I purchased several thousands of sets from him personally.

Years after my final purchase from Dominique, I released my effect Presto Printo. As was mentioned in a previous post, the first thing I wrote in the instructions was how my routine was inspired by Dominiques effect and I listed six differences or improvements between his routine and mine (there are actually several more). It was an exaggeration when I wrote in the instructions What I offer you now is as different from Printing by Dominique Duvivier as Printing is from the original Wild Card by Peter Kane. In retrospect, these were perhaps not the best words to use in order to make my point.

Not long after the release of Presto Printo, I was actually contacted by a lawyer representing Dominique Duvivier. The lawyer was told that I was infringing upon Dominiques rights to his Printing effect. I performed Dominiques original effect with his original handling for the lawyer in addition to my simplified handling and my Presto Printo effect. I then listed about a dozen or more differences between the two effects (not to mention the many differences in our handlings). The lawyer was completely satisfied that there were more than enough differences between our effects to prevent any legal action.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am honest and truthful perhaps to a fault if there is such a thing. If someone has an issue with me, I would much prefer that they contact me personally so that we can clear up the problem rather than assume I had the worst intentions and then air out these damaging opinions in public.

Daryl
Daryl - The Magician's Magician
www.Daryl.net


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