Youtube Takers

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Bob Farmer
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Youtube Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » August 9th, 2022, 11:35 am

I have sent the following email to this guy.


To Oscar Owen Learnmagic.com

I just watched your Youtube video where you explain how Penn and Teller were fooled by a card trick.

To attract viewers you display their names, then you proceed to explain the trick. The trick is not yours to explain and you give no credit to the person who actually invented it, Simon Aronson.

Then you provide a commercial where you offer to teach magic.

You are not qualified to teach magic because to do so requires something more than a knowledge of secrets, it requires an understanding and use of the ethics of magic. Those ethics require that credit be given to those to whom credit is required. Those ethics require a respect for others’ reputations, not the wholesale exploitation of those reputations.

There are too many Youtube takers like you and magic would be so much better if you were all cut from the herd.

Please find something else to exploit and get out of magic, magic doesn’t need you or your ilk.

Bob Farmer

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 9th, 2022, 12:02 pm

I detest You Tube exposures but alas and alack people tell me there is nothing that can be done about it. Magicians used to scream, yell and get agitated over the Masked Magician who did a lot less harm but don't seem to care any more where You Tube is concerned. They seem to have given up. I really don't know what the answer is. The most appalling part about it is that unlike the old days when there was newspaper and TV exposures the exposures nowadays are by the magicians themselves.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby I.M. Magician » August 9th, 2022, 1:11 pm

Of course it is annoying when this stuff happens and it happens all the time. There was or still is a guy on there that took a handful of Tenyo tricks and exposed the secrets to each and every one. He actually did it in what could be described as an angry manner tossing each trick aside when he was done with them.

Not only are they exposing magic methods but making some bucks doing it.

Some years ago, I was performing an effect for a group of teenagers when a young fella yelled out that he knew how it was done because he saw it on YouTube. I was pleased that a young lady told him to shut up.

Like I have said many times over many years, stealing magic methods may well be the world’s second oldest profession. So maybe exposing magic secrets is the third oldest profession. These two disgusting things are certainly nothing new.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2022, 1:11 pm

There is no answer because there is no form of protection for magic tricks.
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby magicam » August 9th, 2022, 1:30 pm

Agreed, the gratuitous public exposure of magic secrets is irritating, but I'm not sure about the long-term harm (and not intending to start that debate here). IMHO, as long as magic -- really its practitioners -- can entertain the public, I think we'll be good. English-language exposures of the cups and balls have been in print, almost continuously, for nearly 450 years, yet with the right performer this effect continues to entertain and mystify.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby I.M. Magician » August 9th, 2022, 1:40 pm

I agree magicam. One can disguise an effect by providing an interesting performance of the effect. In essence, spectators may not recognize it if the presentation does not look familiar to them and is indeed entertaining.

We should not fear the demise of magic. The characters who do what they do will not destroy peoples desire to be entertained via magic effects.

As another point, even though the Svengali deck has been around for a very long time and is readily available to layman, you can still entertain an audience of layman with that deck. And even a few magicians!

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » August 9th, 2022, 3:19 pm

This guy should be shunned by everyone in the magic world. He'd better not use one of my tricks.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 9th, 2022, 4:03 pm

He probably will now out of spite!

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » August 9th, 2022, 4:55 pm

People like this should be blacklisted. Magic dealers should refuse to sell to these people. Magic clubs should toss them out or deny them entry.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 9th, 2022, 5:16 pm

Or offer their courses they sell for free and use their names to advertise them.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 9th, 2022, 5:32 pm

There seem to be two basic gripes here. One from the point of view of the inventor of a given "trick"; the other from the perspective of the performer.

The inventor of course, can't copyright a method, unless it is truly unique--a "trade secret" as it were. All he can do is protect his 'intellectual property", which is the routine. Thus the exposure of the method is generally not actionable.

The performer (no allusion to Mark intended) fears the obsolescence of his act.

But the one thing they both have in common is the anxiety associated with very specific routines. It is inevitable that any recognisable effect will be exposed. The remedy is always to revise and disguise.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 9th, 2022, 5:44 pm

The remedy is to give the audience something they will value more than the knowledge of the method.

Then they will actively avoid exposures like this, in order to better preserve the magic you have created and shared with them.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby I.M. Magician » August 9th, 2022, 5:47 pm

I suggest that there is no remedy. If there was, all of this stuff would not continue to happen in such a widespread manner.

Just checked out the guy Bob referred to and it appears that his followers love him. They don’t care about the stuff we care about. So, they love and follow him and we wish he didn’t do what he does. Looks like he wins.

Keep in mind that this is nothing new. Has it ended the popularity of the art of magic? No! In fact, magic is more popular than ever. So, don’t sweat it.

All he is doing is ruining the enjoyment of magic for those who follow him. Once they know the secret, it is not a miracle for them anymore. Talk about deflation…

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 9th, 2022, 5:59 pm

There is only one source that can stop this crap and that is You Tube itself. Some pressure should be put upon them although I have no idea what. Perhaps a press campaign or something. I often wonder if any of the people who used to scream at the masked magician and picket TV studios or the magic clubs that would kick up a fuss about exposure have ever bothered to write to You Tube and kick up hell about it.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 9th, 2022, 6:06 pm

I know! Get Uri Geller to use the power of his mind to put a stop to it! If he can do this to influence Putin You Tube will be a walk in the park!

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Robert77 » August 9th, 2022, 6:37 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:People like this should be blacklisted. Magic dealers should refuse to sell to these people. Magic clubs should toss them out or deny them entry.


Unless things have changed, magic dealers routinely rip off and copy props and resell them as their own.

Magic clubs refusing membership to someone? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sadly.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 9th, 2022, 6:57 pm

I have a sneaking suspicion that magicians take themselves far more seriously than their audiences do.

They don't generally care how you do it. To them, you're a clown; a juggler, a Morris Dancer. So long as you give them a performance that's worth their money or their time, they're satisfied.

Which is why the most popular magic acts are comedy; tossing and catching knives or flaming torches, and choreography (Copperfield, etc.).

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 9th, 2022, 7:09 pm

These exposure creeps get views, which, in turn = advertising dollars for YouTube (i.e. Google). So there's not a prayer in hell YouTube will stop or curtail this ignominious practice. As pointed out by others, magic just doesn't receive the intellectual property protection. Of course, YouTube will take down a music video or a video using someone's music in a heartbeat if the copyright holder says boo. The reality is that little if anything can be done to stop exposure on social media. Will magic go down the tubes? (No pun intended). No, not by a long shot. But I still hate exposure with a passion, and I always will. Call me old school. I'll take it as a compliment.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 9th, 2022, 8:45 pm

DennisLisi wrote: To them, you're a clown; a juggler, a Morris Dancer..


I believe this is called ‘projection’.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 10th, 2022, 3:00 am

Brad Henderson wrote:
DennisLisi wrote: To them, you're a clown; a juggler, a Morris Dancer..


I believe this is called ‘projection’.


And I believe that is called 'denial'.

What I mean is that magicians are regarded as mere entertainers, not miracle workers. They are momentary diversions. Flashes in the proverbial pan.

If you fail to astound, they will understand. You're not really a wizard. You're just an over-grown kid with a Chop Cup.

They don't idealise you, the way you idealise your magic role models. Your reverence for them is as cringe-worthy as a geeky teenager's adoration for Tommy Dorsey.

If you make a lasting impression at all, it's because you're able to engage them with your on-stage personality, not because your bag of tricks is more awesome than a rare stamp collection, or a garage full of chrome-plated Harleys.

It's not the props, but the presentation that matters is all I'm saying.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Dave Le Fevre » August 10th, 2022, 4:54 am

DennisLisi wrote:magicians are regarded as mere entertainers, not miracle workers
In general, the people who post exposure videos don't even consider us entertainers. To them, we're merely presenting a puzzle for them to solve.

And having solved it, they feel the need to boast publicly about how clever they are.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » August 10th, 2022, 7:59 am

So the fellow sent me a reply. Here it is. Note that he does not address the issues I raised, the use of others' tricks and reputations, he simply offers another commercial. My reply follows.

Hi Bob,

What a pathetic man you are. I've spent the last 5 years making the highest quality tutorial videos on YouTube so that people can learn and appreciate this art; including those who can't afford overpriced books like your Flim-Flam Conglomeration. I must have spent over 20,000 hours now just teaching magic via my courses, and YouTube videos. My book (which is sold in 150+ bookstores and was the #1 best selling magic book on Amazon) only costs £15 because I don't try and rip people off like so many other magicians. My course has over 10,000 students - it's the most popular card magic course in the world; and is more widely used then all of your magic tricks put together. I've done more to build and strengthen the magic community than you have ever done. I have 5 students of mine who have been on America/Australia's got talent. I have a coaching program for magicians where we work one-on-one to improve their routines, script their tricks, become more confident and take their magic to the next level. Check it out on my website learnmagic.com. I also have another course for people who are new to magic called 14 day magician; this currently has 5000+ students and counting.

Beyond that I'm a professional magician, I perform at parties, festivals, red carpet events, wedding etc - I recently came back from doing magic at the BRIT awards this year, so please don't lecture me on 'not being qualified to teach'. I love this art and it is my mission to inspire more people to become magicians.

And yes I am not part of the magic 'herd' you talk about, but I don't want to be, because arrogent magicians like you try and claim the moral high ground on everything and then, get upset when magic is given out for free but are completely fine charging £54 for a book (which I have by the way and it is not something I ever recommend to the magicians that I coach). I'm in my own lane on my own path, so you do your thing and i'll do mine. My goal is to keep magic alive, inspire new people to learn this incredible art, and teach it in the most streamline, easy to follow ecosystem. And that is what I'm doing. I'm always happy to take on board advice and criticism, but if you open up an email with me with such large accusations then I won't be engaging in a dialog with you.

Oscar

REPLY
Oscar Owen:

Rather than addressing my criticisms of your lack of crediting and the appropriation of the reputation of others, you offer another commercial.

Unlike you, my material is invented by me and when I use the material of others I credit them and ask their permission.

You, on the other hand, explained a trick of Simon Aronson’s, a magician who contributed more to magic than you ever have or ever will. You are a deadbeat, a bottom-feeding geek, exploiting the work of others for your financial benefit, another Youtube parasite riding your magic exposure hobbyhorse and trampling magic underfoot as you do so.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 10th, 2022, 8:32 am

The crediting issue is a valid point which he has not addressed. However, from the tone of his letter I have a suspicion that he might be amenable to discussion even if not persuasion on certain issues. I would have no objection to his book written for the public or even for his tuition. After all books have been written on magic since time immemorial. It is the You Tube exposure aspect I object to. If he were to make the videos private then I would have a lot less to complain about.

Calling each other names although understandable is not going to solve anything. I would encourage a respectful dialogue to see if there can be common ground. I would even invite him here to discuss the matter.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 10th, 2022, 8:56 am

DennisLisi wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
DennisLisi wrote: To them, you're a clown; a juggler, a Morris Dancer..


I believe this is called ‘projection’.


And I believe that is called 'denial'.

What I mean is that magicians are regarded as mere entertainers, not miracle workers. They are momentary diversions. Flashes in the proverbial pan.

If you fail to astound, they will understand. You're not really a wizard. You're just an over-grown kid with a Chop Cup.

They don't idealise you, the way you idealise your magic role models. Your reverence for them is as cringe-worthy as a geeky teenager's adoration for Tommy Dorsey.

If you make a lasting impression at all, it's because you're able to engage them with your on-stage personality, not because your bag of tricks is more awesome than a rare stamp collection, or a garage full of chrome-plated Harleys.

It's not the props, but the presentation that matters is all I'm saying.


I have no doubt this is true for you.

But I assure you, it’s not true for everyone.

And what magic person do I idolize? You seem to be full of assumptions.

People want to believe. People crave peak experiences. People will work to preserve moments that they can hold up as exceptional and rare.

The same dynamic you want to condemn magicians for possessing is innately human - maybe you should spend some time performing for humans and you will come to know this.

And yes, it is all about one’s presentation. I don’t think anyone has said anything to disagree with that.

It’s precisely that presentation which turns the revelation of a ball under a cup from a puzzle into a moment that adults will run across a convention center floor to bring their bosses to see, that will compel multi million dollar companies to spend thousands of dollars to fly the ‘child with his toy’ across the country to represent their interests in front of their most valuable clients; and create a following of fans (geeky or otherwise) who come back to see you year after year and actually break down in tears when they run into you on the street.

These things happen.

Not to you, clearly.

But keep trying.

First step is changing your attitude.

Good luck.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 10th, 2022, 9:39 am

Brad--

First of all, my comment about magicians being regarded as "mere entertainers" was a generalism. Of course there are exceptions.

But that gets us nowhere--as the same observation applies to clowns; jugglers and Morris Dancers.

What I'm saying is that Magic isn't seen as something more than any other form of showmanship. It's standards for integrity are no higher.

People don't expect magicians to achieve "real magic".

I'm glad you agree that presentation is the key to a great performance. The reason I mentioned this rather obvious notion was to downplay the hysteria concerning exposure. Simply because HOW A TRICK IS DONE is relatively unimportant to the average viewer.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 10th, 2022, 11:05 am

Regarding You Tube exposure. It is sort of OK at the moment although there are tiny signs of the harm it is doing. However, the harm is not enough for magicians to be too much in panic. However, in the long run it WILL kill magic if something is not done about it. However, just like climate change magicians are in denial because they don't really think it affects them much. But it will, it will........It might take a generation or two but eventually You Tube exposure WILL kill magic off!

Oddly enough it doesn't affect professional magicians as much as amateurs because a professional magician usually has a limited repertoire that he can protect from exposure more easily and even if his material is exposed it doesn't happen until he is well clear of the venue with the money in his pocket. So he is fairly safe for now although he may not be in the future. However, for the amateur it is not a good thing at all. Oddly enough the GOOD amateur (or professional) has far more to worry about than the mediocre performer. Laymen won't bother looking up the secrets of a mediocre performer because they won't care too much. However, if a good performer stuns them with amazement they WILL look up the secret! If you doubt this then you are in denial. I know for a FACT it happens because I have experienced it with my own eyes. And don't think hiding the name of the trick will protect the secret. They will look up the DESCRIPTION of the effect and still find out what it is.

The end is nigh for magic in around 30 years or so (possibly shorter). It won't affect me because I will be too dead to care. However, it will affect some of the rest of you if nothing is done. It WILL kill magic! The illness has already set in albeit the early stages. Just being entertaining is NOT enough. The magic has to stun, mystify and baffle. (I refuse to use that demeaning word "fool") Secrets HAVE to be kept for magic to stay alive.

RK EDITS: Unfortunately climate change has become a political issue, and as such we don't allow discussion of it here. So this essay has been edited slightly.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 10th, 2022, 3:07 pm

While the exposure - and certainly the lack of crediting - is discouraging, what is encouraging to me is that in working regularly in bars and at events during the entire time YouTube has been in existence (i.e., since 2005), I am hard pressed to think of anyone who has said to me words to the effect of "I know how you did that," or "I know the secret to that, I saw a YouTube Video" [or "Googled it."]

This is actually quite surprising to me, since I've performed for dozens upon dozens of "regulars," in some cases, literally over the course of several years, and most of them would not be the least bit shy about letting me know if they knew or thought they knew how a trick was done. I have no empirical evidence, but this would seem to indicate that the vast majority of people for whom I've performed don't watch YouTube exposure videos or go scurrying online to try to find the secret. And I would add that I have encountered many people that love Magic and who have openly declared that they don't even want to know how it's done.

In any event, YouTube is available in most places in the world, The current world population is 7.753 billion people. It appears that Oscar Owen's videos receive an average of up to 200,000 views. (Only the most sensationalistic ones have received over 1,000,000 views, e.g., "The Trick that Fooled David Blaine." "The Trick that fooled Penn and Teller," which he posted 4 weeks ago got only about 50,000 views.) So, in actuality, the percentage of people who are learning secrets from him is exceedingly minuscule.

Please don't get me wrong, from my point of view, the exposure of even one trick to one person is too much, but I think that when this is analyzed, YouTube exposure will not spell DOOMSDAY for magic. Magicians who practice and rehearse very little and settle for mediocrity, or who don't care about being entertaining, or who are not gracious and respectful to people, pose far more of a threat to magic than YouTube ever will.
Last edited by MagicbyAlfred on August 10th, 2022, 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 10th, 2022, 3:19 pm

Mark--

Magic AS WE KNOW IT will surely become antiquated. Just as top hats, tuxedos, and rabbits out of hats.

But that is the nature of the biz. It needs to evolve on order to survive.

Yes, we need to do more than change the name of an effect. We need to wrap it in silk and place it in a box and set it on fire.

The basic moves will be the same, but they must be thoroughly masked. Take bits and pieces from various routines and cobble them together in novel ways.

Now there's a difference between customised routines and store-bought tricks. The former are going to be as safe as ever, but the latter will inevitably be rendered as quaint as an Imp Bottle.

Do you see what I did there? I used an example that has ALREADY BEEN OVER-EXPOSED. It's nothing new. We must accept the fact that items that flood the market will sooner or later be as fascinating as the Jack in the Box or The Mexican Jumping Bean.

"Novelties" will become antiquities. Nostalgic trinkets. 'Twas ever thus, and 'twill always be.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby I.M. Magician » August 10th, 2022, 3:34 pm

Perhaps the greatest danger to the future of magic is all of those electronic devices being released on a routine basis. Electronic dice, markers, and on and on.

The public are well aware of the power and “magic” of electronics. They use a variety of forms of these devices daily. It won’t be long before they come to the conclusion that all the magician is doing is making use of electronic devices to achieve their miracles.

So, the reaction to performances may become “big deal”. Then what?

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 10th, 2022, 4:11 pm

I.M. Magician wrote:Perhaps the greatest danger to the future of magic is all of those electronic devices being released on a routine basis. Electronic dice, markers, and on and on.

The public are well aware of the power and “magic” of electronics. They use a variety of forms of these devices daily. It won’t be long before they come to the conclusion that all the magician is doing is making use of electronic devices to achieve their miracles.

So, the reaction to performances may become “big deal”. Then what?


I say, Make omelettes out of broken eggs. If The Public thinks everything is done with mirrors--or done with electronics--show them that it isn't.

Fake them out. Use their focus against them. It's a great gift when your audience does the misdirection for you.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 10th, 2022, 7:46 pm

DennisLisi wrote:Brad--

First of all, my comment about magicians being regarded as "mere entertainers" was a generalism. Of course there are exceptions.

But that gets us nowhere--as the same observation applies to clowns; jugglers and Morris Dancers.

What I'm saying is that Magic isn't seen as something more than any other form of showmanship. It's standards for integrity are no higher.

People don't expect magicians to achieve "real magic".

I'm glad you agree that presentation is the key to a great performance. The reason I mentioned this rather obvious notion was to downplay the hysteria concerning exposure. Simply because HOW A TRICK IS DONE is relatively unimportant to the average viewer.


Dennis. I disagree

All arts aspire to the resultancy of magic. What do we call any peak artistic experience - magic!

Magic can convey a feeling no other art can convey. Other arts can symbolize the experience of the impossible, only magic can convey it directly.

And while people may have come to learn not to expect us to do real magic, that doesn’t mean they don’t hope we would and are willing to go along for the ride as long as we meet their basic needs.

In fact, I believe the reason they mock magicians is because we potentially promise them so much and only end up disappointing them so badly.

I think we as magicians, with not so much of an effort, can actually convey deep and meaningful experiences to audiences that go behind mere diversion and amusement aka ‘entertainment’.

We too often set the bar too low for ourselves BUT to your point, we often do that because we focus too much on methods and tricks and not how we might choose to use them to convey unique and meaningful feelingful responses - deeper than mere puzzlement or the appreciation of skill.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 10th, 2022, 10:41 pm

The internet is really a kind of wild west. For example I came across this video by Darryl on Daily Motion. It seems to be produced by Murphys Magic according to the opening credit. However, I suspect strongly that Murphy's didn't put it on Daily Motion simply because it is an hour long which is probably the length of the entire video. Nobody needs to buy the DVD now since the information is all there to see. I am not optimistic about the future. Anyway here it is:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6m6dvj

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Paco Nagata » August 11th, 2022, 4:36 am

Bob Farmer wrote:So the fellow sent me a reply. Here it is. Note that he does not address the issues I raised, the use of others' tricks and reputations, he simply offers another commercial. My reply follows.

Hi Bob,

What a pathetic man you are. I've spent the last 5 years making the highest quality tutorial videos on YouTube so that people can learn and appreciate this art; including those who can't afford overpriced books like your Flim-Flam Conglomeration. I must have spent over 20,000 hours now just teaching magic via my courses, and YouTube videos. My book (which is sold in 150+ bookstores and was the #1 best selling magic book on Amazon) only costs £15 because I don't try and rip people off like so many other magicians. My course has over 10,000 students - it's the most popular card magic course in the world; and is more widely used then all of your magic tricks put together. I've done more to build and strengthen the magic community than you have ever done. I have 5 students of mine who have been on America/Australia's got talent. I have a coaching program for magicians where we work one-on-one to improve their routines, script their tricks, become more confident and take their magic to the next level. Check it out on my website learnmagic.com. I also have another course for people who are new to magic called 14 day magician; this currently has 5000+ students and counting.

Beyond that I'm a professional magician, I perform at parties, festivals, red carpet events, wedding etc - I recently came back from doing magic at the BRIT awards this year, so please don't lecture me on 'not being qualified to teach'. I love this art and it is my mission to inspire more people to become magicians.

And yes I am not part of the magic 'herd' you talk about, but I don't want to be, because arrogent magicians like you try and claim the moral high ground on everything and then, get upset when magic is given out for free but are completely fine charging £54 for a book (which I have by the way and it is not something I ever recommend to the magicians that I coach). I'm in my own lane on my own path, so you do your thing and i'll do mine. My goal is to keep magic alive, inspire new people to learn this incredible art, and teach it in the most streamline, easy to follow ecosystem. And that is what I'm doing. I'm always happy to take on board advice and criticism, but if you open up an email with me with such large accusations then I won't be engaging in a dialog with you.

Oscar

REPLY
Oscar Owen:

Rather than addressing my criticisms of your lack of crediting and the appropriation of the reputation of others, you offer another commercial.

Unlike you, my material is invented by me and when I use the material of others I credit them and ask their permission.

You, on the other hand, explained a trick of Simon Aronson’s, a magician who contributed more to magic than you ever have or ever will. You are a deadbeat, a bottom-feeding geek, exploiting the work of others for your financial benefit, another Youtube parasite riding your magic exposure hobbyhorse and trampling magic underfoot as you do so.

Bob Farmer
Bammomagic@cogeco.ca


A magic teacher who doesn't know that "Prior Commitment" is a card magic masterpiece created by Simon Aronson, or doesn't teach such piece of information, can't be a magic teacher, but just an uncultured magic tricks exposer.

Teaching magic is not only about how things work, but also about history, pioners, evolution, references... Likewise a science teacher not only teaches how science works, but also who and how discovered and invented.
"The Passion of an Amateur Card Magician"
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"La pasion de un cartómago aficionado"
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Tom Stone
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tom Stone » August 11th, 2022, 7:46 am

DennisLisi wrote:The inventor of course, can't copyright a method, unless it is truly unique--a "trade secret" as it were. All he can do is protect his 'intellectual property", which is the routine. Thus the exposure of the method is generally not actionable.

I can’t make any sense of this text. Too many contradictions.
But all artistic work is covered by copyright. There shouldn’t be any doubt about that now, in 2022.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tom Stone » August 11th, 2022, 7:53 am

DennisLisi wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion that magicians take themselves far more seriously than their audiences do.

Yes?
Isn’t that true of every profession?
Movie directors take their profession more seriously than movie-watchers.
Will you tell us that water is wet next?

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katterfelt0
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby katterfelt0 » August 11th, 2022, 9:01 am

Tom Stone wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion that magicians take themselves far more seriously than their audiences do.

Yes?
Isn’t that true of every profession?

Most, but not quite every profession. I care about my neurosurgery than does my neurosurgeon. The worst that could happen to him is a lawsuit and loss of medical license. The worst that could happen to me...

Yep, that's katterfelt0 being nitpicky again. ;)
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

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DennisLisi
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 11th, 2022, 9:14 am

Tom Stone wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion that magicians take themselves far more seriously than their audiences do.

Yes?
Isn’t that true of every profession?
Movie directors take their profession more seriously than movie-watchers.
Will you tell us that water is wet next?


I made that comment in regard to this topic. I mean that magicians are too proud of the the Art of Deception. They concern themselves too much with who invented the tricks, and not enough with their own ability to entertain an audience.

May I say something really controversial?

I think it's the most foolish thing you can do. To be loyal and faithful to A PARTICULAR ROUTINE, just because a brilliant inventor created it. To feel that you must acknowledge the inventor and perform it exactly as he designed it.

This pride in Magic is like the pride of owning a Rolls-Royce automobile.

The audience is not impressed by the fact that Dai Vernon performed it at The Magic Castle. YOU NEED TO MAKE IT YOUR OWN.

Yes, we should give credit where it is due. But guarding and defending a copyrighted routine is of interest only to the company that sells it. Those who perform it for audiences ought to ignore who invented it, and give the impression that it is UNIQUE TO THEMSELVES.

This discipline of following the instructions is what makes magic boring. The important thing is not to preserve the integrity of the trick, but to modify it to suit your own style.

The "exposure" of a method or a routine is only a problem if you make it obvious WHOSE TRICK YOU ARE PERFORMING.

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Paco Nagata
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Paco Nagata » August 11th, 2022, 9:43 am

Obviously we don't need to give a magic history lecture for the audience when performing a magic trick, but just performing it as a magician and full stop.

However, when we are talking about magic tricks to other magicians, teachers and pupils, we must talk properly about all the backgrounds of any subtlety, ruse, idea, gimmicks, routines... as far as one know about it.
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 11th, 2022, 11:02 am

Paco Nagata wrote:Obviously we don't need to give a magic history lecture for the audience when performing a magic trick, but just performing it as a magician and full stop.

However, when we are talking about magic tricks to other magicians, teachers and pupils, we must talk properly about all the backgrounds of any subtlety, ruse, idea, gimmicks, routines... as far as one know about it.


Yes, Paco, I agree. There is a clear-cut dichotomy between the performance of magic for the general public, on one hand, and the teaching, writing, and discussion of magic, on the other hand.

Exposers on YouTube or other media have no sense of ethics to begin with, and are motivated purely by capturing as many views as possible, so they are certainly not going to care about giving the provenance of a trick or move. Exploiting the work and ideas of others for personal gain, and especially without even giving credit, is at least the moral equivalent of theft and fraud.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » August 11th, 2022, 5:28 pm

There is one theme in this thread I'd like to correct but I don't want to engage in a lengthy legal discussion, since every case is unique. Magic tricks can be protected by various legal protections, such as patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc. etc. It depends on the trick and how the protection is applied. So, do not assume that magic tricks all the time always are not protectable--it may cost you money.


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