Bob Little Has Died

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Ted M
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Ted M » August 5th, 2022, 9:30 pm

It's well established that in the particular context under discussion, the judge-and-jury system has failed countless victims of sexual abuse, over and over again.

In this particular context, the judge-and-jury system has historically been stacked against victims, and has enabled their abusers.

In most other contexts, it works pretty well. But it has a dismal record in this one.

Maybe this can help you understand why championing it in this context is meeting with pushback.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 5th, 2022, 11:17 pm

Ted M wrote:It's well established that in the particular context under discussion, the judge-and-jury system has failed countless victims of sexual abuse, over and over again.

In this particular context, the judge-and-jury system has historically been stacked against victims, and has enabled their abusers.

In most other contexts, it works pretty well. But it has a dismal record in this one.

Maybe this can help you understand why championing it in this context is meeting with pushback.


I don't want to be vicious (really I don't) but your comment is absurd. It is not "well established" that the judge-and-jury system has failed countless victims of sexual abuse, over and over again.

This is a baseless assertion. There can be no statistics to support a claim of "countless victims...over and over again". This is vaguery, bolstered only by the indignation of dissatisfied plaintiffs.

Of course, The System is not perfect. It is bound to fail on occasion. But that is equally true for all kinds of cases. The only difference here is the heightened sense of indignity that folks feel in regard to sexual assault.

And the only examples there could possibly be of The System being "stacked against victims" are those in which the verdict has been overturned on appeal. Otherwise, you have only the frustration of not being able to present clear and convincing evidence.

As I said in my comment (deleted by Richard), I fully sympathise with any victim who cannot prove his case. It is a sad fact of life, that many crimes are almost impossible to prosecute (lack of witnesses, lack of physical evidence, etc.).

But let's not forget that those who are accused of heinous crimes may also be the victims. The destruction of one's reputation and career can be just as terrible as any injury.

As an hypothetical example, suppose I resented Richard deleting my comment so much that I decided to accuse him of molesting me when I was twelve. Would I then be The Darling of this forum? Would you take my word without question, simply because I claim to be a victim? Would you revile him, and never trust a single thing he said in his own defence? I doubt it.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Robert77 » August 5th, 2022, 11:50 pm

DennisLisi wrote:
Tarotist wrote:I think that Dennis was talking in generalities rather than specifically to this case.


Yes, I can only speak objectively, and in terms of principle, as I don't know anything about this situation.

But that's supposed to be a Good Thing. There's a reason why judges and jurors are required to be impartial.
.


This wasn't a trial. This was testimony.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Ted M » August 6th, 2022, 12:44 am

> Of course, The System is not perfect. It is bound to fail on occasion. But that is equally true for all kinds of cases.

Oh really? So the judge-and-jury system fails equally as many sexual abuse victims as it does victims of false accusation?

I think those numbers are vastly different. I think the magnitude of their tallies are pretty disproportionate.

Justice is overwhelmingly not served for victims of sexual abuse, and you appear to be unsympathetic, and telling them to shut up except within the chambers of a court that overwhelmingly denies them justice -- if they ever reach it in the first place.
Last edited by Ted M on August 6th, 2022, 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 6th, 2022, 12:47 am

Robert77 wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:
Tarotist wrote:I think that Dennis was talking in generalities rather than specifically to this case.


Yes, I can only speak objectively, and in terms of principle, as I don't know anything about this situation.

But that's supposed to be a Good Thing. There's a reason why judges and jurors are required to be impartial.
.


This wasn't a trial. This was testimony.


I don't think it was testimony. I think it was gossip.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 6th, 2022, 1:34 am

Ted M wrote:> Of course, The System is not perfect. It is bound to fail on occasion. But that is equally true for all kinds of cases.

Oh really? So the judge-and-jury system fails equally as many sexual abuse victims as it does victims of false accusation?

I think those numbers are vastly different. I think the magnitude of their tallies are pretty disproportionate.

Justice is overwhelmingly not served for victims of sexual abuse, and you appear to be unsympathetic, and telling them to shut up except within the chambers of a court that overwhelmingly denies them justice -- if they ever reach it in the first place.


My point is that neither you nor I know how many genuine victims are denied justice. We can only assume that some of them are.

When you say The System has "failed them" you are merely trusting that those who bewail the loss of their suit were in fact victims. Such abject faith in the veracity of accusers is anti-thetical to justice. It actually deprives defendants of a fair trial.

Now you and I may both know when we are telling the truth, and when we have been denied justice, but we cannot presume that everyone who brings charges is equally honest, or equally deprived.

What I fear is that we are caught up in an heroic fantasy, in which every damsel is fair, and every ogre is wicked. In which we project our noble ideals at the expense of reality.

If we were to revamp The Justice System so that no evidence were required, so that emotional testimony alone were sufficient to convict someone--we wouldn't have a justice system. It would be a Kangaroo Court. Is that what you are advocating?

Yes, terrible things happen. We've all seen them, we've all felt them. But that doesn't mean that every time we hear a horrible accusation, it must be true.

We are seeing these things not with our eyes, but our hearts. And it feels good. Very good. Too good, in some instances.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Ian Kendall » August 6th, 2022, 3:32 am

As an hypothetical example, suppose I resented Richard deleting my comment so much that I decided to accuse him of molesting me when I was twelve. Would I then be The Darling of this forum? Would you take my word without question, simply because I claim to be a victim? Would you revile him, and never trust a single thing he said in his own defence? I doubt it.


That depends. If you were someone I knew deeply, and trusted, it may hold more weight. If your comments were in line with several other reports that covered people I knew well, and a number of years, it may hold more weight.

But if you're going to post something asinine to make a bad point, I'd need more.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 6th, 2022, 8:19 am

Ian--

If that's all it were about--trusting the word of someone we know--I wouldn't begrudge your attitude. That wouldn't have the devastating impact of an entire society favouring the accuser. It wouldn't be a witch hunt.

But what most of you are saying is that justice would be better served if we all acted like we knew, all presupposed the innocent virtue of the accuser.

It's no wonder that so many decry The Justice System, if they believe that cases like this ought to be tried not by objective standards, but solely on instinct.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Brad Henderson » August 6th, 2022, 11:06 am

One need only look to the pope’s visit during fism ti see direct proof of how the system failed victims for decades. One only need look to further instances in that organization to see how the system failed victims for decades. One need only consider that for many years any woman who was raped was accused of having provoked it to know the system has failed victims for decades. Or all the times when juries were composed only of men, or when the idea of marital rape was considered impossible, or . . .

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 6th, 2022, 1:24 pm

@DennisLisi, do you need to speak to a matter involving this topic? What do you feel about our host's strong reaction to the passing of a know abuser? Do you have any sympathy for those who have also been made uncomfortable (or even abused) by some in this community?

There's a trick to distraction by way of "rules" and language. The passive-blameless-removed phrasing, as if responding to a question about a referenced work of literature, is a tell. I think about such as a red neon sign blinking "unsafe", and "trigger warning". Look at a post written to express a feeling and notice which following posts respect that feeling, which sympathize and which attempt to deflect the discussion. If this is an active process - look for victim blaming and then attempts to turn attention to those who don't follow the attempted distraction. Since this sort of social trickery is a form of misdirection let's address it as a method independent of the issue it attempts to conceal.

@MarkLewis, the law may offer some recourse ... but balance is needed between the public persona/market product and the human truth of the person. In larger society this has recently come to a town in PA sacrificing youngsters to the shower with the football coach. In older mythology we have Theseus and the Minotaur.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Ted M » August 6th, 2022, 6:58 pm

> My point is that neither you nor I know how many genuine victims are denied justice.

How many? Here are some numbers, from the US DOJ:
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf

When 200,000+ victims of rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault PER YEAR don't even report their case to the police (US DOJ statistics), that's a strong sign that The System is badly broken for a whole hell of a lot of human beings.


> We can only assume that some of them are.

No, we can certainly do more than that. At the very, very least, we can LISTEN to them, and EMPATHIZE with them.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 6th, 2022, 7:04 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
@MarkLewis, the law may offer some recourse ... but balance is needed between the public persona/market product and the human truth of the person. In larger society this has recently come to a town in PA sacrificing youngsters to the shower with the football coach. In older mythology we have Theseus and the Minotaur.


I am sorry Jonathon. Once Theseus and the Minotaur get involved in the matter I tend to lose interest on the basis that I have no idea who or what you are talking about. Were they perpetrator or victim? Which magic club do they belong to? Have they taken part in that Facebook thread? I must have missed them I suppose but I will concede it was a very long thread.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 6th, 2022, 8:32 pm

Ted M wrote:> My point is that neither you nor I know how many genuine victims are denied justice.

How many? Here are some numbers, from the US DOJ:
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf

When 200,000+ victims of rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault PER YEAR don't even report their case to the police (US DOJ statistics), that's a strong sign that The System is badly broken for a whole hell of a lot of human beings.


> We can only assume that some of them are.

No, we can certainly do more than that. At the very, very least, we can LISTEN to them, and EMPATHIZE with them.




These are not statistics of facts, but statistics of unsubstantiated incidents. If they were "not reported", they were merely claims. And probably anonymous claims. They have about as much validity as polls conducted by women's magazines.

The core of your argument seems to be that we must assume all claims are true. We've already discussed that. I'm not in favour.

Anyone who has ever been the victim of slander can explain it to you.

Put yourself in the place of a man accused falsely of any one of these heinous crimes. You know you didn't do it. You therefore know that the accuser is either lying or mistaken. Are you saying we are heartless because we do not empathise with someone who is unjustly condemning us?

I've been in that situation. Do I deserve no empathy? No understanding? No tolerance?

There is a reason for my unwillingness to have blind faith in accusers.

But I'm sure that doesn't mean anything to you. What might is this--

That being a "hero" for the cause (whether it be feminism, gay rights, or whatever) does not shield you from unfounded accusations. I know you think it does. If only you show them you're on their side, they'll never trash your name.

Not true, I'm afraid. Anyone (even a "yes man" like you, a gullible believer in propaganda) can be thrown under the bus.

Sad fact is that, sooner or later, they'll do it to you if you let them. Walk all over you.

It's human nature. Who can doubt that if you trust everything someone says, they'll wake up one day and decide to take advantage of you?

To think you are safe just because you are an advocate is a pitiable delusion.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Brad Henderson » August 6th, 2022, 10:14 pm

Except this isn’t a case of one person making an accusation. It’s a case of several unconnected people sharing very similar experiences. None of whom have anything to gain from speaking up other than personal embarrassment and possible accusations of being liars - as you seem to want to suggest, Dennis.

Is it possible for people to be falsely accused? Yes

Is it likely they are being falsely accused when multiple people have made similar reports over time?

Not so much.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 6th, 2022, 10:24 pm

But who are the multiple people? If they stay anonymous as they all seem to do and make their claims through others then I am not sure they count. Sure, I understand the trauma of coming forward. Alas, if accusations are made this is the way it has to be. You cannot accuse others without SUBSTANTIATION. And the substantiation has to come through the victim not his intermediaries. Of course it is not easy to produce that substantiation but that is the way it has to be to avoid mistakes which can ruin someone's reputation.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Brad Henderson » August 6th, 2022, 11:10 pm

These people may be unknown to you, but they aren’t unknown to everyone. And it appears, if I recall, several people on the Facebook thread reported personal incidents where Bob Little hit on them when they were young.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 6th, 2022, 11:36 pm

I shall have another look at that facebook thread. I must have missed it. I was probably misdirected by all the startling allegations about OTHER magicians who are much more famous than Bob Little. Again unsubstantiated but it did make my stomach turn.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 6th, 2022, 11:49 pm

I did look. I only saw one. I am not saying his allegation is untrue but one is not enough. And of course we don't know the full story behind that one. What he says still hasn't been SUBSTANTIATED. Things can be true but they still have to be substantiated. Anybody can say anything for all sorts of reasons. As a pitchman I know that if one person buys something others in the crowd naturally follow. The same thing can happen here. If you can convince one person something is amiss everyone else tends to follow. I prefer not to follow the herd until I see SUBSTANTIATION.

I am no lawyer but I imagine victims can sue the deceased perpetrator's estate if they can prove the allegations. So why don't they?

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Ted M » August 7th, 2022, 1:09 am

Dennis, I can feel empathy for you as a false accusation victim even though you have not proven your case to me through the judge-and-jury system, AND I can do so WITHOUT trying to shut down all the victims of sexual assault who express their pain when that system does not offer them meaningful recourse.

I am sorry for your experience, and your pain.

However, your victimhood does not invalidate other people's pain.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Robert77 » August 7th, 2022, 2:05 am

Tarotist wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:
@MarkLewis, the law may offer some recourse ... but balance is needed between the public persona/market product and the human truth of the person. In larger society this has recently come to a town in PA sacrificing youngsters to the shower with the football coach. In older mythology we have Theseus and the Minotaur.


I am sorry Jonathon. Once Theseus and the Minotaur get involved in the matter I tend to lose interest on the basis that I have no idea who or what you are talking about. Were they perpetrator or victim? Which magic club do they belong to? Have they taken part in that Facebook thread? I must have missed them I suppose but I will concede it was a very long thread.


I wish I knew why Mark Lewis was still allowed to post to this site.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 7th, 2022, 4:21 am

Ted M wrote:Dennis, I can feel empathy for you as a false accusation victim even though you have not proven your case to me through the judge-and-jury system, AND I can do so WITHOUT trying to shut down all the victims of sexual assault who express their pain when that system does not offer them meaningful recourse.

I am sorry for your experience, and your pain.

However, your victimhood does not invalidate other people's pain.


My purpose is not to invalidate anybody's pain. Nor is it to elicit sympathy.

It's simply to explain the logic of scepticism.

I use my own experience as a cautionary tale that I think can help others to avoid similar devastation.

You may decide for yourself how common it is for something like this to happen.

You let someone know that you trust them implicitly and they are initially very grateful. But then they get addicted to your gullibility, and they take it for granted.

If you ever in future decide that something they say or do is wrong, they will naturally feel that you have betrayed them. And they will rip you to pieces.

Worse yet, you have no defence, as you have already gone about praising their virtue. You have fought against yourself for the sake of a primadonna.

You find yourself caught in a trap. It's like contemplating leaving a group of organised criminals. Show your disloyalty one time, and they come gunning for you.

Well, I'm out of that group, and it was a painful process. I hope you can understand why I'm not going back to it.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 7th, 2022, 7:52 am

What bothers me is that even I believe the accusations without any substantiation. I can only imagine the reactions of people without my scruples. It is a very dangerous path to go down. They do say that you should never speak ill of the dead. I find it cowardly to do so when they can't answer back but keep silent when they can.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 7th, 2022, 9:51 am

@Mark, waiting till gone is about legal repercussions for libel/slander. The #metoo idea helps. Hearing some long held screams after a known abuser has gone is not surprising. Reading quibbles and hypothetical arguments posted in response is saddening. Reading requests for evidence just makes the case for teaching children to keep their cellphone recorders on, especially in schools and around strangers.

What would you do if someone posted links to such recordings? I predict a “you cant do that because its porn” type reply. So I’m predicting another generation will suffer the children.

For today: COVID and ‘monkeypox’ work as good excuses to avoid intimacy with strangers.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby BarryAllen » August 7th, 2022, 12:40 pm

Robert77 wrote:I wish I knew why Mark Lewis was still allowed to post to this site.


Well firstly, probably because it's not your site - so you don't make the rules.

Secondly, possibly because there are some of us that enjoy reading posts from someone who 'tells it as it is'. Not to mention the fact that he's probably forgotten more than some people will ever know.

Mark's posts are entertaining, helpful and often provide food for thought.

Maybe that's why.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby PressureFan » August 7th, 2022, 12:49 pm

Ask him about his entertaining thoughts on Australians and the Romani.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 2:12 pm

I have experienced this from both sides - abused as a child and falsely accused as an adult. I think this makes me somewhat qualified to add to the discussion.

Despite the false accusation I wholeheartedly endorse calling out alleged perpetrators once they have died. I believe it to be a public service announcement, reminding children and parents to be wary.

In the spirit of my proclamation I'll say one abuser was a babysitter whose name I wish I could remember and the other was my mother. Neither one convicted though I did call out my mother eventually.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Jackpot » August 7th, 2022, 2:27 pm

katterfelt0 wrote:Despite the false accusation I wholeheartedly endorse calling out alleged perpetrators once they have died. I believe it to be a public service announcement, reminding children and parents to be wary.


Well said.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 2:33 pm

Jackpot wrote:
katterfelt0 wrote:Despite the false accusation I wholeheartedly endorse calling out alleged perpetrators once they have died. I believe it to be a public service announcement, reminding children and parents to be wary.


Well said.

Thank you. You don't know how bloody difficult that was to write. I'm still shaking.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Krenz » August 7th, 2022, 3:31 pm

I'm still shaking.


It is ok to shake. Accessing traumatic memories can do that.

Take a deep breath. Hold it. Release it.

Repeat as needed.

The above helps me.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 4:01 pm

For those of you curious what happened due to the false allegation; I was fired from my job of 25 years.

And yet I still support the calling out of alleged perpetrators. It all comes down to a risk/benefit analysis for me. There are certainly risks as my case clearly shows, but the benefits outweigh them by a considerable margin.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 4:02 pm

Krenz wrote:
I'm still shaking.


It is ok to shake. Accessing traumatic memories can do that.

Take a deep breath. Hold it. Release it.

Repeat as needed.

The above helps me.

Thank you, sir. One would think this mess gets easier with time. With me, not so much.
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untangling a ball of trauma

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 7th, 2022, 4:27 pm

@katterfelt0, bravo, and much respect.

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Re: untangling a ball of trauma

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 5:19 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:@katterfelt0, bravo, and much respect.

Thank you and the others for your support. It means a lot.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 7th, 2022, 6:16 pm

katterfelt0 wrote:I have experienced this from both sides - abused as a child and falsely accused as an adult. I think this makes me somewhat qualified to add to the discussion.

Despite the false accusation I wholeheartedly endorse calling out alleged perpetrators once they have died. I believe it to be a public service announcement, reminding children and parents to be wary.

In the spirit of my proclamation I'll say one abuser was a babysitter whose name I wish I could remember and the other was my mother. Neither one convicted though I did call out my mother eventually.


I agree with your dual approach to the matter. When I say I'm a sceptic, I don't mean I'm a cynic. I try not to lean too far in either direction. To me, scepticism is virtually synonymous with objectivity.

It's those who doubt something so much that they have persuaded themselves that it is false, that give scepticism a bad name.

Ideally, I think we should have a fifty-fifty attitude towards everybody. That means both suspects and accusers.

For false accusation is a crime--and we should remind ourselves constantly that the accusation itself might be an assassination of someone's character.

To believe that it is more likely for the accusation to be true, than that the accused has been wrongly charged is bias. Statistics and sensational propaganda ought not to convince us that 99% of the charges are legit, and only 1% of the denials are sincere.

We all deserve The Benefit of the Doubt until there is sufficient reason to believe in either contention.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 6:40 pm

DennisLisi wrote: Statistics and sensational propaganda ought not to convince us that 99% of the charges are legit, and only 1% of the denials are sincere.

I don't recall saying 99% of the charges are legit. In fact, I don't recall anyone on this thread making that claim.
As far as not using sensational propaganda (again, I didn't make this claim - I keep bringing it up because you're response was specifically to my post) I agree. As to not using statistics? Statistics are accumulated data parsed into categories. To beat a dead horse, I didn't make any claim regarding statistics, but I will say it's an... odd belief to not want to use accumulated data. But then again, horse-dead-beat: if you respond specifically to one of my posts with such claims I have to believe you think I made said claims.

Yeah, I'm a bit pissed off as I type this. Your words felt like a denial of my experience.
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 7th, 2022, 6:45 pm

It now seems that two people on this discussion have stated that they have been falsely accused. That proves at least that it does happen. I suggest it happens rather a lot too. It often starts because of some grudge held against the victim and is considered an easy way to get revenge. I have seen it happen numerous times on different occasions.

As a holy psychic reverend may I remind you all of one of the Ten Commandments "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour"
It is true that this has to be balanced against the needs of genuine victims. A difficult balance to be sure. My personal decision is "Innocent unless proven guilty" and "Don't speak ill of the dead". After all with regard to the latter their relatives are listening.

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 7th, 2022, 7:28 pm

The very premise that someone making an accusation of abuse is 50/50 just being spiteful
is about as encouraging as the Catholic church's treatment of native Canadians taken into schools to get civilized.

@Mark and @"Dennis" - kindly notice how very few comments were made about or at the families of those mentioned. Clearly this drama has caught your conscience somewhere.

Dolt's Dictionary words for the day ;)
objective: people are not objects, nor do they often care to be subjects
cynical: someone else is paying you to post distractions.
skeptical: 50/50 that you don't understand the emotional context of this topic

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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby Tarotist » August 7th, 2022, 7:39 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:50/50 that you don't understand the emotional context of this topic


It is not just the emotional context that I don't understand. Would you mind repeating all that in English?

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DennisLisi
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby DennisLisi » August 7th, 2022, 7:43 pm

katterfelt0 wrote:
DennisLisi wrote: Statistics and sensational propaganda ought not to convince us that 99% of the charges are legit, and only 1% of the denials are sincere.

I don't recall saying 99% of the charges are legit. In fact, I don't recall anyone on this thread making that claim.
.


I was referring to the exchange I had with Ted M, who has repeatedly attempted to argue about unreported claims, as if they ought to persuade any rational person that they are true just because a bunch of anonymous individuals raised their hands and said "Yes! That happened to me too".

As I said, I am loathe to appear cynical. But the truth is that it"s entirely possible that folks with a certain political agenda contributed largely to the database.

Statistics are only as good as they are accurate. And when you solicit opinions from people, asking whether they have been abused, you're going to get a lot of sob stories.

I don't know about you, but I personally never got an email or a phonecall, asking me whether I was the victim of a false accusation.

That makes the body of evidence skewed, right there.

I'm sorry if you got the impression that I found fault in your comment. It's one of the few in this thread that I concur with.

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katterfelt0
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Re: Bob Little Has Died

Postby katterfelt0 » August 7th, 2022, 7:54 pm

DennisLisi wrote:
katterfelt0 wrote:
DennisLisi wrote: Statistics and sensational propaganda ought not to convince us that 99% of the charges are legit, and only 1% of the denials are sincere.

I don't recall saying 99% of the charges are legit. In fact, I don't recall anyone on this thread making that claim.
.


I was referring to the exchange I had with Ted M, who has repeatedly attempted to argue about unreported claims, as if they ought to persuade any rational person that they are true just because a bunch of anonymous individuals raised their hands and said "Yes! That happened to me too".

Then might I respectfully suggest you respond to Ted's posts and not mine.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.


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