Ricky Jay - his legacy in the world of magic

[Joe Mckay]

I really enjoyed the new Josh Jay Book (How Magicians Think). There are 52 short chapters in total, and one of them disusses Ricky Jay and his legacy.

Josh Jay opens the chapter by saying that he had mixed feelings about Ricky Jay. On the one hand he was a huge fan, but on the other hand he felt Ricky Jay owed it to the world of magic to pass on his ideas to the following generations.

Ricky benefited from Dai Vernon and Charlie Miller sharing secrets with him. As such, Josh felt it wasn't fair of Ricky not to make a similar effort with the generations of magicians that followed him.

If I remember correctly, Josh then ends the chapter in quite an enigmatic way by hinting that the real legacy Ricky Jay left magicians was not in the form of tricks, secrets or (magician-only) books.

But as a source of inspiration to other magicians. Ricky had a vision for the role of secrets in magic and he seemed saddened that other magicians did not treasure this sdie of magic the way he did. And ultimately it was this vision that he was trying to communicate in his work.

My dream would be a joint book from Ricky Jay and David Mamet discussing their approach to writing, presentation, character and style. Since this is what Ricky was a master at in his performance of magic.

So I am left wondering if Ricky wanted his legacy to be one of a magician setting an example to other magicians? And that ultimately this would be more powerful than anything he could put down in print?

That is a romantic way of looking at it, I guess. My sense is that Ricky genuinely disliked a lot of the world of magic, as such any inspiration he provided to other magicians was just an accident and not something he ever really cared about.

I am just curious what others think about this? I think it is something that will form an important part of how magic history remembers the life and work of Ricky Jay.

[Tarotist]

I don't think Ricky Jay owes magicians a damn thing! Why the hell should he?

I did read Josh's book and it is very clear that he loves magic with all his heart and that can only be a good thing. I wanted to like his book because of that and it wasn't bad. The trouble is that as I was reading through it I kept reluctantly finding that I didn't agree with half the things he was saying. The odd profanity here and there didn't help either. There is something about foul language in print that appalls me. Magic is an art which shouldn't be sullied by the ugliness of vulgarity in print.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I don't think Ricky Jay owes magicians a damn thing! Why the hell should he?.

Ricky Jay didn't think so either. The fact is that he he held the vast, overwhelming majority of magicians in complete and utter contempt. An in-depth profile on Ricky published in the New Yorker magazine back in 1993 reveals why. I was tempted to post long, pertinent passages from the article, but brevity being the soul of wit, I decided, instead, to provide the link to the piece, so that those who might be interested can check it out for themselves.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1993 ... -the-magus

Whether or not Ricky purposefully left one, or cared about doing so, I think his "legacy" for magicians was the example he set in cherishing the art of magic and the standard of excellence he set for himself, never settling for mediocrity or imitation. He was a scholar of the work of other magicians, but he tapped into his own creativity, and worked hard to craft fascinating, entertaining, and cleanly executed presentations, that were uniquely his, and a delight to experience. It bothered him deeply and profoundly that, relatively speaking, very few magicians set such standards for themselves.

I feel like there's so much more that could be said, but then, there's that brevity thing...

[Tarotist]

I don't think Ricky Jay owes magicians a damn thing! Why the hell should he?.

It bothered him deeply and profoundly that, relatively speaking, very few magicians set such standards for themselves. .

I feel the same way. I shouldn't but I do.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Agreed about setting an example for public facing works. Also for the question about if and how his additions to our craft are to be transmitted beyond records of his public facing works in performance. His work - his choices - his "secrets"[1]. In this world[2] it is simply not helpful to grouch about what keeps mankind alive[3] in public.

As to willfully slowing the technical advancement of this craft - there's a case to be made for claiming that as antisocial behavior. The folks who designed the lunar lander were not the ones who built it, or those who launched it, or those who landed on the moon. But all needed to do their work and it had to work. In the larger sense - eggs in one basket. In the smaller sense - for the want of a nail... We could make examples of Hofzinser, Harbin, Harry Lorayne, and Ricky Jay to illustrate how material gets propagated in the magic market. I side with Harry Lorayne (and Paul Harris, Michael Ammar...) who get permission, teach, and maintain provenances while staying accessible to the reader - setting a good example in our community.

[1] The word "confidences" is probably a better term, as "prestigist" would be to "prestidigitator". Secret means ... a lot so some and nothing more than a brand claim to others.

[2] There's a line from Virgil's Aeneid which has passed to us as "a lie gets halfway around the world before truth gets its shoes on". Thanks to Einstein we can say that stupidity moves at the speed of lies.

[3] This is mostly a matter of our internal market unfortunately magnified by modern communications. If an item is available on ebay then it can be unboxed, explained, and treated as raw material for almost any purpose - such is our Rule 34.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I don't think Ricky Jay owes magicians a damn thing! Why the hell should he?.

It bothered him deeply and profoundly that, relatively speaking, very few magicians set such standards for themselves. .

I feel the same way. I shouldn't but I do.

From the aforesaid New Yorker article:

T.J. Waters (then-Magic Castle Librarian) said: "One of the things that I love about Ricky is his continued amazement at how little magicians seem to care about the art. Intellectually, Ricky seems to understand this, but emotionally he can’t accept it. He gets as upset about this problem today as he did twenty years ago.”

The article (by Mark Singer) continues: "At some point within the past twenty years, Jay asked Dai Vernon—a.k.a. the Professor—how he coped with affronts of this sort, and Vernon replied, 'I forced myself not to care.' "

“Maybe that’s how he lived to be ninety-eight years old,” Jay says.


(*thus outliving Ricky by over a quarter century)

[Edward Pungot]

Master Class?
David Mamet has one.
So does Steve Martin.
Ricky Jay?
I don't think so.
It just wasn't his style.

[Joe Mckay]

I really enjoyed the David Mamet online Masterclass. And I enjoyed Steve Martin's book as well.

This interview with David Mamet was very helpful to me as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f1--6oM_v0

[JHostler]

There are highly talented individuals in every art, craft, and profession who openly and chronically lambaste those unwilling OR unable to attain their personal level of mastery. Ricky was a genius who ultimately took himself too seriously and assumed everyone else was an idiot. The latter is unfortunately true in at least a third of cases... but only a third. I wonder if he ever experienced an extended period of happiness.

[Jeff Haas]

There is sooo much outstanding material to study, especially in the area of card magic.

Do we really need anything from Ricky, other than his performances?

I just wish that "Off The Stem" had been recorded.

[katterfelt0]

Mr. Hostler,

This is one of those times when I really wish there was a "like" or a "thumbs up" option to a post.

I agree completely.

[Dave Le Fevre]

And from the picture that I always formed of Ricky Jay's attitude to others, I wish I could like both John Hostler's post and Katterfelt's post

(No disrespect to Ricky Jay, who was entitled to have whatever attitude he wished and who was a superb conjuror)

[MagicbyAlfred]

I was once given some very valuable advice by an incomparably superb magician and performer: "Alfred, no matter what level you achieve, or are on, don't ever start thinking that you are "there," or how "good" you are, because that will be the beginning of a precipitous decline."

It is my personal belief that a magician should not perform a trick or routine (even a self-working one) for people before it is at least clean and smooth and deceptive, and that magicians should be creative (not merely imitate) be entertaining, and learn to involve and connect with people, But not matter how I progress, I don't believe I will ever get to a point where I look down on another magician. I always learn something of value by watching even a beginner, or in some cases, even a layman perform. Now, of course, if a magician, regardless of what level, shows me something and asks my opinion, they will get the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth -- both as to the handling and the presentation.

[Bill Mullins]

Ricky was a genius who ultimately took himself too seriously and assumed everyone else was an idiot.

Wow, that is not what I took from him or his legacy, and I'm sorry for you that this is all you got from it.

[Brad Henderson]

It was my experience that Ricky did NOT assume everyone else was an idiot.

[Richard Kaufman]

He assumed most magicians were idiots.

[Tarotist]

He was right!

[Roger M.]

I never really viewed RJ as particularly irascible, but I thought it was pretty obvious that his primary motivation when dealing with other magicians was to presume that anything he told them, or showed them ... would shortly show up somewhere on the internet, or uncredited in a book somewhere.
His belief translated into that presumption that the only magician who would do such a thing (basically all of them) was therefore an "idiot".
But I do think his definition of "idiot" was pretty narrow though, and largely focused on how magicians handled secrets that were shared with them.
And thus he showed magicians nothing, disliked speaking with magicians, and basically lived his professional life away from any sort of "magic brotherhood", focusing on friends and associates with an interest in magic, but who were not primarily magicians ... Steve Martin, David Mamet, Steve Freeman, Persi, etc.

I thought Jay made it crystal clear that his dislike of magicians was primarily based on their fundamental inability to keep a bloody secret!

[Tarotist]

Here is a quote from Ricky Jay which may give some insight to his attitude:

"The pain is bad magicians ripping off good ones, doing magic badly, and making a mockery of the art"

I would certainly agree with that.

[Chris Aguilar]

Shortly after eight o’clock the next morning, I picked Jay up in front of his apartment building, and we drove downtown to the courthouse, where the auction would take place. A couple of days earlier, he had said to me, “I’ve talked to a lot of people who say they might be bidding, and I can tell you that, without a single exception, they’re utterly soulless. No one gets it, no one has a clue to what the collection is really about.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1993 ... -the-magus

[Diego]

Because of his well crafted persona/performance framing, audiences took Ricky Jay's audiences took what he did seriously and to be well regarded/respected.

I remember seeing one of his shows and realized the audience was a fairly upscale, sophisticated, wordly crowd who had bought expensive tickets, to watch him do mostly card tricks on a fairly sparse stage. But watching the reactions of the audience and asking some before and after the show, why did they come...saying you went to see Ricky Jay do card tricks was like saying you went to see Will Rogers do rope twilling.
I asked a cousin who was very enthusiastic that I had invited him to see Ricky with me, why did he want to go?
He replied, "Because Ricky Jay is a real cool guy." (nothing about magic, he had sold Ricky) So audiences did take the magic performed seriously, because they took Ricky seriously.

In Europe and other countries, their is a greater caste system amongst circus and other variety performers...starting with your professional status, or lack of...some go with it, others enjoy the company of a variety of people. But as a friend of Ricky's said, "Just because someone bought a svengali deck last month, doesn't mean I have to tell him to have a seat and then talk with him."

[JHostler]

Getting back to the original post... I've not read Josh's essay on Ricky, but Joe McKay's synopsis sounds about right. Ricky left the avocation virtually nothing in the way of new methods, strategies, subtleties, etc. - at least not in the sense that these were articulated in the form of shared material. He didn't share material (because in his mind 99% of magicians - present company included - are unworthy, soulless dullards). He did share performance and inspiration - and was brilliant. He developed a unique curmudgeonly character in much the same vein as Bob Dylan. That doesn't mean Ricky wasn't an egomaniacal, condescending jerk in real life - he probably was. (And the "probably" caveat is attributable entirely to my reliance on second-hand accounts for this assessment.) But yeah, he left a legacy for us in the same way other performers and artists - from Ralph Steadman to Harry Dean Stanton to Nick Lowe - have.

[Tarotist]

I still don't know why people think that Ricky owed the world of magic anything. The knowledge belonged to him and him alone. If he wished to share it fine------but if he doesn't that is entirely his prerogative. It seems to me to be an incredible impertinence to assume that he should share his property (and information is indeed a property) free just for the asking. Nobody OWES you anything in this life. And it is wrong to expect/demand anyone to. Where he got his information is HIS business and he is under no obligation to pass it on just because some daft entitled magicians want him to.

[Joe Mckay]

But watching the reactions of the audience and asking some before and after the show, why did they come...saying you went to see Ricky Jay do card tricks was like saying you went to see Will Rogers do rope twilling.

This reminds me of one of my weirder theories. I think Ricky's later career owed a lot to Yo-Yo Ma.

Yo-Yo Ma plays the cello. Apparently he is the best cello player ever.

However, nobody actually likes the cello (just as nobody really likes card tricks). But Yo-Yo Ma made it fashionable (in America) to be seen to appreciate somebody who was the "best" in their field.

Even if it is a field (such as the cello or card tricks) that nobody particularly cares about in the first place.

It seems to be this weird elitist New Yorker snobbish type attitude that is common amongst the upper classes over in America. Maybe it is because American is such a young country? As such, people seek a sense of identity in "taste" rather than history.

That is how it seems to me (stuck over here in the UK).

[Tarotist]

People not only like card tricks but LOVE them providing you do them in an entertaining manner. Of course that is the hard part for some "magicians".

[Diego]

I remember the revelation I felt after watching Rene Levand for the first time at The Castle....that 98% of those in magic are doing a bunch of stupid magic tricks, in comparison to what I had witnessed that was jolting. Interesting that the closest I felt that way before was after watching Copperfield's "Flying" illusion for the first time in a theater. Both in their own ways, was beyond what others could only (maybe) dream about.

Too much of magic is done badly. In comparison to Ricky Jay, Teller, Tina Lenart, who spend months/years working on a piece, developing it, before including it in a performance. I understand those who want to be with others who take their work as seriously as they do themselves. Or those who do it for a living and only give attention, to those who do the same.

I've seen really bad presentations of Jim Steinmeyer's "Interlude", by those who haven't a clue what it's about.

[Denis Behr]

However, nobody actually likes the cello (just as nobody really likes card tricks).

Your theory falls apart right here, twice.

[David Ben]

I am probably going to regret saying this but…

Respectfully, what makes you think that Ricky had secrets, meaning material he learned from people like Vernon and Miller, to share? Having studied Vernon a great deal, and having copies of much of Miller’s correspondence (coming in and going out), and having access to notebooks by or about them, I believe almost everything is already out there. It just takes effort to find and assemble it.

Also, I believe that Ricky performed his best material, both technically and structurally, publicly. Great performers do that. That don’t say, “oh, I will be on national television and magicians may be watching, so I better not perform my best stuff.”

Ricky had technical skill, particularly in his younger days. In my opinion, that skill diminished over time. That is not surprising. Sleight of hand, which was his thing, is a young man’s game. Unlike a prop that generally functions like it always did, sleight of hand requires constant attention just to maintain the minimum, and then your body changes, and hands dry out, and you start to lose your touch.

And let’s face it, Ricky was busy doing original research, writing books. consulting on film and television production, and acting. Oh, and building up a world class collection AND having a loving relationship with his wife and great friendships with others, all of which take enormous amounts time and effort.

So that is Ricky’s legacy for the magic community.

Finally, Ricky’s strength, for me, was his total commitment to his character and the script in performance. He was bold, brazen, and unconventional and never displayed, as far as I recall, fear or trepidation - although he must of had some of that as virtually all actors and performers do - in front of an audience. That commitment to character, particularly in his earlier work (rather than the era of raconteur) when he had to manage an audience as he executed relatively advanced sleight of hand is what differentiated his work, particularly on national television, from other ‘magicians’, and is why people knew and wanted to see him.

So I believe he shared his best work, and the knowledge he had in store - his own and of others - to the magic community throughout his career, and he did this, as others have mentioned in this thread, by example.

[JHostler]

A "like" for David Ben.

As to the post further above that insinuates we all feel "owed" by RJ: I have yet to meet a magician who feels so entitled. The problem is that RJ chose to hold everything close - not just "secrets," but insights and philosophy that might have bettered magic in significant ways. Yet rather than constructively deploying these insights, he elected to complain and lambaste the larger magic community for not having them. Yeah, that was his right and his choice - but that doesn't mean we're obligated to embrace it.

[MagicbyAlfred]

However, nobody actually likes the cello (just as nobody really likes card tricks).

Your theory falls apart right here, twice.

Yes. For example a certain band from Liverpool (I believe that's in the UK), whose music was (and arguably still remains) the most popular music in history, seemed to like the cello just fine. (along with a host of other instruments that were played by the orchestras they hired for records they made). And then there is the Julliard String Quartet, which is wildly popular and world-renowned, which would not exist as we know it but for the beautiful voice of the cello. But then, Julliard is in America, a "young country," where an "elitist New Yorker snobbish type attitude" prevails, and where people seek to have "taste," as opposed to a "sense of history." So what do Americans know anyway?

As for card tricks, I wish I had a dollar for every time someone told me they "love" card tricks, or that card tricks were their favorite kind of magic. Like any other kind of magic, it all depends on how well it is performed and how engaging and entertaining the presentation is. Take Bill Malone, for example. The great majority of his close up magic is done with cards (although he's fantastic no matter what props he uses), yet he is one of the most sought after and successful professional magicians ever. And he's an American. Imagine that?

[MagicbyAlfred]

Joe McKay Wrote: "It seems to be this weird elitist New Yorker snobbish type attitude that is common amongst the upper classes over in America. Maybe it is because American is such a young country? As such, people seek a sense of identity in "taste" rather than history."

Maybe it's the mood I'm in today, but I can't resist supplementing my prior post with a couple more points.

We all know, of course, that, unlike America, there is no elitism or snobbery whatsoever amongst the upper classes in the UK.

And, actually, Americans do have a sense of identity rooted in history. The successful revolt and overcoming of the oppression of the "mother country" is prominently featured in millions of history books over here for every student to learn about and proudly celebrate.

[Joe Lyons]

Thought I would post a joke about a flash pot and a magic tea kettle, but this scene from The Great Escape seemed more appropriate.

[Joe Mckay]

I will echo what David Ben said. I think Ricky Jay (especially in conjunction with David Mamet) could have shared some fascinating insights into scripting and character. But I don't think he was the keeper of the realm when it came to "inner circle" secrets. That sort of intrigue appealed to me once, but as you mature in magic you realise we have more than enough good tricks and secrets to keep us busy for decades to come.

I have also become one of those boring magicians who has finally realised that methods and secrets are actually the least important thing about a trick. My younger self would hate me.

In fact, David made an excellent contribution to an earlier thread of mine (from 12 years ago!) when I tried to learn more about exactly what the "inner circle/underground" of magic was. It is one of the best posts on the entire forum:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33622&start=40#p231772

I still stand by my Yo-Yo Ma theory. A lot of Ricky's appeal was with the sort of people who otherwise would not be caught dead at a magic show. That didn't happen by accident. Ricky knew how to market himself in a very clever (and sophisticated) way.

Finally - here is what I wrote when Ricky Jay died. It was my attempt at capturing the lessons I felt Ricky was trying to teach magicians:

viewtopic.php?t=51271#p349107

[Brad Henderson]

Cards are a medium. And at best that medium is neutral. (though we can argue that Cards themself do have an innate historical, social, symbolic, mythical appeal.) Unless Someone’s family was murdered by a pack of cards, or they have some weird aversion to the sound of riffling or fear of Paper cuts, to say “I don’t like tricks with cards” is utterly nonsensical.

When people say I don’t like card tricks, what they mean to say is I don’t like the way CardTricks make me feel. And this is a reasonable opinion because most card tricks as done by most magicians apparently have the intention to convey one and only one feeling,which is ‘huh?!? how did you do that?.” This is because most magicians care most about pleasing themselves, or at best other magicians, which means they like things that fool them. As we see in the magic marketplace, most items are designed to appeal to those who already know how the tricks are normally done. An invisible deck which can be shown both sides is fascinating only to a magician who knows how the trick is supposed to be done. It is utterly lost on real people.

So there is innately nothing wrong or weak or repulsive about magic with cards. The problem lies entirely with the value system of the person using cards as the medium with which to convey their magic.

This is why people loved Ricky Jay’s card tricks. This is why Tamariz was a star in his country. And this is why countless magicians over the years have made very good livings and conveyed deep feelings of magic to their audiences using a pack of pasteboards.

Let’s not judge a media by how it has been handled be the least competent among us .

[Tarotist]

And, actually, Americans do have a sense of identity rooted in history. The successful revolt and overcoming of the oppression of the "mother country" is prominently featured in millions of history books over here for every student to learn about and proudly celebrate.

Personally I don't think America has done very well since they abandoned the mother country. Too many bullets flying around in a most impolite manner. it costs around ten grand or so to cure a slight headache. , too many long winded magicians and the populace spell in a most peculiar manner.

I really think America should apply to come under British rule once again. Alas, I don't think we want them any more.

[Tarotist]

A "like" for David Ben.

As to the post further above that insinuates we all feel "owed" by RJ: I have yet to meet a magician who feels so entitled. The problem is that RJ chose to hold everything close - not just "secrets," but insights and philosophy that might have bettered magic in significant ways. Yet rather than constructively deploying these insights, he elected to complain and lambaste the larger magic community for not having them. Yeah, that was his right and his choice - but that doesn't mean we're obligated to embrace it.

OK. I should not have said you "all feel owed" I should merely have said that Joshua Jay felt owed. I was trying to be polite. Alas politeness is not my forte so in future I am going to go back to my natural cynical rudeness. Canada has tried to make me polite but hasn't quite managed it yet.

[Tarotist]

I have also become one of those boring magicians who has finally realised that methods and secrets are actually the least important thing about a trick. My younger self would hate me.

About bloody time! Congratulations!

[MagicbyAlfred]

Tarotist Wrote: "I really think America should apply to come under British rule once again. Alas, I don't think we want them any more."

Somehow, in some way (although therapy may well be needed), I think we will be able to live with that.

[AJM]

If we all consider magicians as a group to be worthless or incompetent then why do we bother I wonder?

Why would we wish to persist with an interest in magic when we know our peers consider everyone (other than themselves of course) to be useless.

Why do we take delight in trashing ‘most magicians’? Possibly because we like to think that we as individuals have better standards than others and therefore we can adopt ‘a holier than thou’ attitude. Probably makes us feel good and massages our fragile egos.

No-one here is perfect. No-one.

[Bill Mullins]

That doesn't mean Ricky wasn't an egomaniacal, condescending jerk in real life - he probably was. (And the "probably" caveat is attributable entirely to my reliance on second-hand accounts for this assessment.)

From your parenthetical aside, I take it that you never interacted with Ricky.

My own exchanges with him were minimal - a half hour on the phone, a few hours in person, and a few emails and letters. But he was never anything but polite and gracious to me. (That may be because I tried to be polite to him and to treat him respectfully. Funny how that works so often.)