A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

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Tom Gilbert
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Tom Gilbert » November 17th, 2021, 7:03 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Edward Pungot wrote:Technically, it is his signature.


To people who collect autographs, it is not.


Exactly Bill.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Edward Pungot » November 17th, 2021, 11:15 am

Just playing devil's advocate.
I agree that autographs should be done by hand by the actual person who the signature belongs to. I'm assuming that's why they are more expensive.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » November 17th, 2021, 1:46 pm

Apparently, TalkShopLive is refusing refunds now:
https://twitter.com/Alek_Douglas_64/sta ... 6967804929

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Chris Aguilar » November 17th, 2021, 5:02 pm

Still no official comment by DC or his representative?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Leo Garet » November 18th, 2021, 11:02 am

Tom Gilbert wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
Edward Pungot wrote:Technically, it is his signature.


To people who collect autographs, it is not.


Exactly Bill.


Agree totally.

It must be a wrist-aching mind-numbing exercise. But that being so, if it is such a chore, don't offer signed copies.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby AJM » November 18th, 2021, 12:46 pm

One might ask why Mr Copperfield would wish to sign the book anyway (by either hand or autopen) - he wasn't the author.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 18th, 2021, 1:23 pm

He was indeed one of the authors. Many interviews with him were used as source material for the writing.
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » November 18th, 2021, 1:34 pm

For an authentic hand-signed bookplate copy of the book, this site appears more reliable: Premier collectables (they specifically disclaim selling any autopenned signatures)

https://livesigning.com/magic

(I notice that he is hand signing with black sharpies in this taped signing, as opposed to the thin, blue ink signatures in question. Also, at 57:55 you can briefly see the more typical Copperfield authentic signature)

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 18th, 2021, 3:11 pm

Assuming that someone has purchased a book that is auto penned, as opposed to hand-signed, from a seller that has represented that the book was hand-signed, the seller has breached the contract it has with the buyer for the sale of goods.

In a transaction for sale and purchase of a book, for there to be a binding and enforceable contract between the buyer and seller, there is no need that there be be a signed written contract, expressly spelling out the terms of an agreement (such as, "Bobby Bookseller agrees to sell and Billy Buyer agrees to purchase a copy of The History of Magic, hand-signed by DC for the purchase price of $29.99.").

The advertising of a book for sale constitutes an offer for a contract, and the buyer's placing of the order and/or remission of the purchase price to the seller is an acceptance of the offer. There is a quid pro quo exchange of consideration, each party giving or promising to give something of value to the other (in the case of the seller, the delivery of the book to the buyer; in the case of the buyer, the remission of money/the purchase price to the seller).

Ergo, formation of a contract

The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) governs the sale of goods, and has been adopted by virtually all states in the U.S. The UCC provides that there will be an "warranty of merchantability" implied into every sale of goods (unless the seller specifically disclaims the warranty prior to the sale).

According to UCC § 2-314, "a warranty that the goods shall be merchantable is implied in a contract for their sale if the seller is a merchant with respect to goods of that kind."

For goods to be "merchantable," they must, at least:

"pass without objection in the trade under the contract description." In addition, the goods must "run...of an even kind [and] quality within each unit and among all units involved."

That warranty, in essence, becomes a term of the contract, and if the warranty is breached, then so too is the contract. giving the buyer legal rights and remedies against the seller.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Tom Gilbert » November 18th, 2021, 3:44 pm

Re: The Premier Bookseller, I did get an email saying that they will not allow autopenned signatures. But to E's point of what a signature looks like, he signed the book, Premier says a bookplate is signed. Fool me once.... A google search for DC's signature shows, for lack of a better term, rounded scribbles. The Talkshoplive signature is very neat compared to signed photos on Google. Sad that there's been no word from the Copperfield camp on the matter. I'm sure if Talkshoplive advertised an autopen signature, they would have only sold a small percentage of what they did.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 19th, 2021, 2:47 am

Just as an addendum to my previous post (and again, this is based on the assumption that someone purchased a book that was represented to have been hand-signed, but that was, in fact, auto-penned), obviously, very few (if any) of us are going to go out and hire a lawyer, file a lawsuit, and litigate in court, even if there has been a breach of contract/misrepresentation. However, there is always the avenue of disputing the transaction. There is a high likelihood that the book was paid for by credit card, or in some cases, debit card. As long as you sought a refund from the merchant and did not get satisfaction, the chances are excellent that you would prevail. It would take nothing more than maybe 5 minutes or so on the phone with a representative of the bank to give them the reason for your dispute, and oftentimes they will immediately issue a provisional credit back to your account, which would then become permanent at some point in time after the bank "investigates." Chances are you would end up with both the merchandise and a credit back to your account.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Tom Gilbert » November 19th, 2021, 6:37 am

To add what to Alfred said, keep emails that you sent and received from TSL, to send to your credit card company, to show you've tried to resolve it.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » November 19th, 2021, 7:14 am

Good news!: TSL just sent me an offer for a refund. Thanks to Bill (and many others) for posting the evidence to help make this possible and to the person who gave me the initial heads up. If you'd like to return the book, you may wish to reach out to TSL sooner than later.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 19th, 2021, 9:34 am

That is indeed good news. They apparently realized they were caught dead to rights. And certainly, any further adverse publicity could be a disaster as far as future sales and reputation-wise. It will be interesting to see if they adjust their ad copy accordingly (which, frankly, wouldn't be great for sales either).

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 19th, 2021, 5:07 pm


So the "signed" edition was only $1 more than the unsigned edition?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Joe Lyons » November 19th, 2021, 5:21 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:

So the "signed" edition was only $1 more than the unsigned edition?

Those autopens work cheap...

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Brad Henderson » November 19th, 2021, 6:14 pm

I would be so lucky if the greatest disappointment in my life was buying a $30 book with a dodgy signature.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Brad Henderson » November 19th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Of course, now you need the auto pen edition to complete the set!

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby I.M. Magician » November 19th, 2021, 6:30 pm

So many are distracted with all of this real or not real signature stuff that you missed the flash sale Amazon had offering the book for $20.

No signature of any kind and no Orson Welles section. Just a great low price!

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 19th, 2021, 6:39 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Of course, now you need the auto pen edition to complete the set!
One volume for each template or a special section in a special edition?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Edward Pungot » November 19th, 2021, 6:59 pm

Interesting Article on the Autopen
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/president-obamas-autopen-when-is-an-autograph-not-an-autograph-574822/

If they wanted to sell more books they should have given everyone a chance to win an exclusive group tour of the museum. Then, they could get the autograph in person after the show and museum tour.

All the returned books would look great in the gift shop.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Andres Reynoso » November 24th, 2021, 12:23 pm

I bought two from talkshop, one for me and one for a friend. Both has different signatures, one clear, like other photos on twitter about autopen, and the other with tremble lines and different stroke. Maybe another template and the machine trembled, or it was copied by hand?

It's kind of disappointing discovering that an autograph was made by a machine, but if Copperfield advertised his signed book in Talkshop, Talkshop is not who invented the signature, or the advertisement, neither S&S, so it is an "official" signature even by autopen because it was officialy offered by Copperfiled. I think the same history could be true for Premiere, I don't know, but both stores offer the books at the same price, a couple of dollars above the other stores with regular edition (and below the list price)

I have heard "serious" signature collectors say the only way you can be sure an autograph is authentic, is if it was made in front of you. If you purchase it, even with an authenticity certificate, there are a lot of certificate enterprises ... but who certifies them. Is the case for a lot of Hollywood signatures, you can found them at conventions, eBay and another places.

Disappointing? Kind of. Surprised? Not really.
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 24th, 2021, 6:47 pm

I'm pretty surprised that Copperfield would choose to mass-market his (ostensible) autograph for a measly dollar.

How does that help him, when even minor cast members from long-canceled TV shows can command fifty clams for an autograph at a fan convention? That seems like very strange market positioning...

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » November 24th, 2021, 7:23 pm

Andres Reynoso wrote: so it is an "official" signature even by autopen because it was officialy offered by Copperfiled.

It may be "official," but it is not a signature.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Mark Tams » November 25th, 2021, 8:38 am

I think my signed book is beautiful, regardless of how it is signed. I purchased the book . . . not necessarily the signature. The pics, layout and much of the script I am enjoying reading.

I get the collectors thang' . . . but why would someone want to return a beautiful book with lots of historical information because of "how" it was signed?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 25th, 2021, 9:35 am

Mark Tams wrote:I think my signed book is beautiful, regardless of how it is signed. I purchased the book . . . not necessarily the signature. The pics, layout and much of the script I am enjoying reading.

I get the collectors thang' . . . but why would someone want to return a beautiful book with lots of historical information because of "how" it was signed?


It's great that you are happy with your book, and that's what really matters. Nevertheless, I think it's perfectly understandable that there are people who would want to return even a beautiful book when they place significant value on having the author's signature, and were induced to buy it based, at least in part, on the express representation that it was "autographed" by DC, and it turned out not to be, thereby depriving them of the benefit of their bargain. As Erdnasephile pointed out, the ad copy for the book he purchased stated that the book was "autographed." (Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines autograph as "something written or made with one's own hand...a person's handwritten signature.") It also appears that it was advertised that one could purchase a "signed" book, and signed does not mean auto-penned. Furthermore, it goes even beyond subjective value to the purchaser; a book autographed by the author (especially an extremely well-known and/or popular one) substantially increases the value of the book.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby AJM » November 25th, 2021, 10:30 am

On the topic of cost, as a collector of signed books, I wouldn’t ordinarily expect to pay an additional cost for a signed book unless it’s a special, limited or deluxe edition.

So the observations here about the similar cost of the DC book variants - standard v. additional chapter v. ‘signed’ isn’t necessarily an issue.

There are of course exceptions when it is known that a best-selling/popular author will only sign a limited number of books/book-plates/‘tip-ins’ etc - in these situations one can expect to pay a (considerable) premium.

For example, with Paul McCartney’s recently released 2 volume ‘Lyrics’ I believe only around 60 copies were signed and allocated to a number of handpicked retailers worldwide for either auction or competition prizes. These will no doubt sell for many thousands of dollars in years to come.

Whatever the case, however, I would expect a signed copy of a book to be hand signed.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Chris Aguilar » November 25th, 2021, 2:14 pm

And, since it's been all silence from the Copperfield camp, can we assume that they know about and are Ok with the autopenned signatures being sold this way?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 25th, 2021, 4:49 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:And, since it's been all silence from the Copperfield camp, can we assume that they know about and are Ok with the autopenned signatures being sold this way?


Given that the autopenned signatures are being sold as a $1 add-on to the main item, the book itself, I don't see Copperfield caring very much that anyone feels they didn't get their dollar's worth.

Copperfield is promoting his book project. Autograph collectors who consider the book worthless are unlikely to win sympathy from him.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 25th, 2021, 5:38 pm

Ted M wrote:
Chris Aguilar wrote: Copperfield is promoting his book project. Autograph collectors who consider the book worthless are unlikely to win sympathy from him.


Or he from them.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Edward Pungot » November 25th, 2021, 5:52 pm

I think it's the thought of giving and/or receiving an autopenned book that just doesn't feel right.
A lot of people grew-up on Copperfield, being inspired by his magic. The emotional investment is real and the autograph should reflect this. Fans don't want to feel cheated, especially if it's going to be given as a gift.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 25th, 2021, 10:23 pm

> Fans don't want to feel cheated...

I don't understand who can feel cheated when they only paid an extra dollar for the "signature"?

Who seriously would expect that bazillionaire David Copperfield would spend his time manually signing a giant number of bookplates so he can pocket a few cents for each one? He has far more effective ways to make his money.

This is like paying an extra dollar for a foil cover on a comic book. It's just a cheap cosmetic thrill, and it's priced accordingly.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Chris Aguilar » November 25th, 2021, 11:35 pm

Ted M wrote:> Fans don't want to feel cheated...

I don't understand who can feel cheated when they only paid an extra dollar for the "signature"?

....

People assumed that a signature meant someone hand signed something? How wacky!

Perhaps the ad copy should have referred to it as a "signature" as opposed to a signature.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 26th, 2021, 12:00 am

Ted M wrote:I don't understand who can feel cheated when they only paid an extra dollar for the "signature"?

People who collect celebrity autographs were purchasing the signature more so than the book.
Their feeling of being cheated is understandable.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 26th, 2021, 12:55 am

One might think folks would look at the $1 price difference of the "signed" vs unsigned book and draw a reasonable conclusion about the included "signature."

How is this not an obvious thing?

Does any reasonable person think they're getting a real LeBron James-signed basketball at Target for $14.99?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Roger M. » November 26th, 2021, 1:59 am

Ted M wrote:Does any reasonable person think they're getting a real LeBron James-signed basketball at Target for $14.99?

A LeBron basketball is obviously not signed, it's inked with a logo that includes a rough facsimile of James signature (if it's even James signature).
Comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese.

Quite reasonably, folks were inapprpriatly led to believe they would receive a book signed by David Copperfield ... that didn't happen, which makes it somewhat fraudulent (as an autopen isn't David Copperfield).

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Mark Tams » November 26th, 2021, 7:53 am

I think it's perfectly understandable that there are people who would want to return even a beautiful book when they place significant value on having the author's signature, and were induced to buy it based, at least in part, on the express representation that it was "autographed" by DC, and it turned out not to be, thereby depriving them of the benefit of their bargain.


If all they wanted was the autograph . . . why would they buy the book? Why not just seek out a way to get David's autograph?

Like others said, it was a simple add on for $1 . . . did people really expect something extraordinary for a $buck$???

I think this is about perspective and there are a lot of upset people . . . I might even suffice it to say . . . out of perspective people . . . over a $buck$.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 26th, 2021, 9:12 am

I wouldn't think that "all they wanted was the autograph," but rather that book with DC's actual autograph, the combination being what was represented/advertised and what they paid for.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 26th, 2021, 10:47 am

Ad copy from my youth. Maybe folks feeling jilted by Copperfield should've read more comic books when young.
Image

...or learned from buying Sea Monkeys...or ordering from magic catalogs.

Where is people's basic "too-good-to-be-true" radar?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » November 27th, 2021, 1:43 am

I like that Jack Davis art in the ad.


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