A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

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PressureFan
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby PressureFan » November 27th, 2021, 1:45 am

At least it looks like Jack signed it.

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erdnasephile
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » November 27th, 2021, 10:31 am

With respect, Premiere Collectables is currently selling non-autopenned, hand-signed copies of the book for no premium over the list price of an unsigned book. Mr. Copperfield's signature is also not uncommon---as some of you older folks will recall, he used to sign hundreds of autographs after every show. Local bookstores and national chains around here also offer hand-signed books (not bookplates) for no markup and sometimes at discount. Talkshoplive advertised this as a pre publication AUTOGRAPHED special (all caps emphasis per the original banner ad). Finally, on the talkshoplive livestream video (at 22:44), Mr. Copperfield himself says “…we’re signing bookplates for these (books) that will be available through talkshoplive ” while miming signing a bookplate. Dr. Wiseman confirms: “Yes, that’s correct, they come with a signed bookplate by yourself” while also miming a signature.

It really does seem that all of these factors together might lead a reasonable person to conclude they would receive an actual signed item, not a deal that is “too good to be true.”

IMHO, I don't feel folks in this thread are outraged or hysterical--it's just that many of us are disappointed when purchasing items where an implied feature that could have reasonably been provided turns out to be fake. I just politely requested a refund and we'll see what happens.

JHostler
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby JHostler » November 27th, 2021, 10:49 am

I've always understood the primary use of autopens to be for signed celebrity photos stocked and distributed "on demand" (free of charge) by agents/managers etc. - not for use in contexts where a SOLD item is purportedly autographed. Regardless of the price differential, it's a pretty lazy move on the part of Copperfield. Imagine purchasing a piece of art (let's say a signed LE Ralph Steadman print) only to discover that the thing had been signed by a machine. The frustration is completely justified... and you can bet the Copperfield camp thoroughly explored risk/reward in advance.
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Joe Lyons » November 27th, 2021, 11:00 am

erdnasephile wrote: Mr. Copperfield's signature is also not uncommon

True, it’s common enough that I chose the extra chapter on Welles instead.

Thousands of books are signed by the author every year at no charge to the purchaser.
This isn’t a case of buying a diamond for 10 dollars and being surprised when it turns out to be a cubic zirconia.

People just want to get what they pay for.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 27th, 2021, 6:04 pm

He's a major household-name celebrity who signs "free" autographs after folks have bought $100 show tickets.

He's not the usual book author who's flattered to pretend they're a celebrity when signing books.

Perspective.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby JHostler » November 27th, 2021, 6:26 pm

Ted M wrote:He's a major household-name celebrity who signs "free" autographs after folks have bought $100 show tickets.

He's not the usual book author who's flattered to pretend they're a celebrity when signing books.

Perspective.


Not sure what you mean by "the usual book author," but here's some competing perspective: While DC may mean a lot to us, folks like David Mitchell, Margaret Atwood, and Bill Bryson mean a lot more to others. And none of this is even relevant to the issue at hand - unless your point is that "celebrities" somehow get a pass on ethical issues.
"The gnomes' ambition is handicapped by laziness." Adapted from Charles Bukowski, and clearly evident at http://www.gnominal.com

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 27th, 2021, 7:13 pm

I think my points boil down to these two:

1) Expecting something valuable for a $1 add-on is folly.

2) Expecting Copperfield, aloft in the clouds atop his mountain of money, to care about such folly is also folly.


PS: I love David Mitchell's writing.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 27th, 2021, 8:46 pm

I think the point boils down to rightfully expecting to actually get what is advertised/represented after you shell out your money for it, irrespective of the purchase price. A one dollar add-on for the alleged "autographed" version represents approximately 3% more than the regular purchase price. And yes, that would be a very good deal, relatively speaking, if it weren't just an illusion. Would it be an acceptable business practice, for example, for a dealer to offer 4-wheel drive, a more powerful engine, and a luxury interior package in a vehicle for 3% more than the same vehicle without those options, and then deliver a vehicle without them under the rationale that, "Well, sorry, you shouldn't have really expected it given the price you paid." The other point is that there are some people who may not have purchased the book at all but for the promise that it would include an autograph.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Ted M » November 27th, 2021, 9:26 pm

Would you like to buy some Sea Monkeys too?

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Mark Tams » November 28th, 2021, 7:21 am

What if the purchase price was $1 more for the book . . . and you got a free autograph with the purchase of the book. Yet the autograph that was free was done by autopen . . .

Would you be pissed then?

Perspective

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Chris Aguilar » November 28th, 2021, 8:56 am

Y'all get hung up over price (and DC's sig isn't that rare, so a buck isn't crazy) but that's just using a rather weak straw man to disabuse people of the notion that they deserve to get the product they were marketed/sold.

If the price of signed and unsigned books were the same, but, oh say, the first 100 purchasers got a free signature copy (and it was marketed as a real signature) why wouldn't those folks feel a bit salty to find out they were provided faux autopen?

Perspective. The word "autopen" was never used when marketing these "signed" books.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby JHostler » November 28th, 2021, 9:16 am

Chris Aguilar wrote:Y'all get hung up over price (and DC's sig isn't that rare, so a buck isn't crazy) but that's just using a rather weak straw man to disabuse people of the notion that they deserve to get the product they were marketed/sold.

If the price of signed and unsigned books were the same, but, oh say, the first 100 purchasers got a free signature copy (and it was marketed as a real signature) why wouldn't those folks feel a bit salty to find out they were provided faux autopen?

Perspective. The word "autopen" was never used when marketing these "signed" books.


Bingo. Neither price nor "fame" are relevant. A sales offer was fulfilled on the basis of a shady technicality - that's the bottom line. Without the benefit of Kenner's insight, I'd wager a Copperfield advisor characterized this as common and acceptable practice or he (David) would have sidestepped the whole thing. Pure speculation.
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Jackpot » November 28th, 2021, 12:58 pm

"Folly" is not believing that the museum book is personally signed and autographed by David Copperfield.
"Folly would be believing that a new, collectors edition of The Right Way to Do Wrong is personally signed and autographed by Harry Houdini.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » November 28th, 2021, 1:45 pm

Jackpot wrote:Folly would be believing that a new, collectors edition of The Right Way to Do Wrong is personally signed and autographed by Harry Houdini.

Using a Sharpie.
With a holographic sticker for authentication.

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katterfelt0
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby katterfelt0 » November 28th, 2021, 2:19 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Jackpot wrote:Folly would be believing that a new, collectors edition of The Right Way to Do Wrong is personally signed and autographed by Harry Houdini.

Using a Sharpie.
With a holographic sticker for authentication.


Well, crap. I guess I paid too much.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 29th, 2021, 3:29 pm

A few weeks ago I went to my local Barnes & Noble and asked if they had the New David Copperfield book. The shopgirl lead me to a remote corner of the store where they had about thirty copies, stacked on a small table. These were the B&N "Exclusive Edition", you know, the one with the four extra pages of Orson Welles material.

They were marked down by 20%, to the bargain price of just $28.

I did not buy one.

Today (succumbing to temptation) I went back to the store and headed straight to where the Copperfield books were located.
To my surprise, they were all gone!

Just an empty table!

Again I asked if they had the new David Copperfield book. I figured maybe they had just moved them to a more prominent location.
The girl searched her computer but could not find any sign of them.
Just when it seemed I was out of luck, another employee spoke up and said "I think we have some signed copies on the dad's table."

(Apparently, a "dad's table" is bookstore jargon for a table where you put books that would be of interest to old men.)

As we made our way through the store, the twentysomething young man said, "David Copperfield? I didn't know he was still alive."

:(

Anyway, the gist of the story is that you can now get signed copies of the Barnes & Noble Exclusive Edition.
$35. No discount.

And you don't get a signed "bookplate". The actual book is signed ... and I believe this to be an authentic signature. I base this on the fact that there were six copies of the book, and I carefully compared all six of the signatures. All were in some way different from one another.

I also think that there is compelling evidence that an autopen was used in the signing of the "bookplates".

Maybe someday we'll get the full story.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » December 1st, 2021, 12:21 am

Brad Jeffers wrote: The actual book is signed ... and I believe this to be an authentic signature. I base this on the fact that there were six copies of the book, and I carefully compared all six of the signatures. All were in some way different from one another.


I went to the local B&N today to check them out. They had about 5-6 copies. I compared the top two, and they were different. But I still think they are autopenned.

This is what I saw today:

Image

Note how the ends of strokes show that the pen came to a stop, and is lifted from the paper -- in real handwriting, the end of a stroke continues while the pen is being lifted, and the stroke trails off. Here they are blunt. Classic sign of an autopen.

This is from an autograph collector
Image -- compare them.

Initially, they look different. But compare corresponding letters -- each individual stroke is an exact match. Only the spacing between letters is different, which could be from moving the paper while the Autopen machine is working, or possibly a setting in the machine itself to make "signatures" vary in appearance.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 1st, 2021, 9:28 am

Here's a site offering various signed photographs of DC for sale. Assuming these are authentic (hand-signed) signatures, the question arises as to whether he has ever signed his name the same way twice? Given this wide and discernible variance, an expert forensic handwriting analyst might be hard-pressed to give a definitive opinion as to authenticity concerning any one particular specimen.

https://www.historyforsale.com/signer-m ... ield/31345

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » December 1st, 2021, 12:53 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote: the question arises as to whether he has ever signed his name the same way twice?

Does anybody?

Given this wide and discernible variance, an expert forensic handwriting analyst might be hard-pressed to give a definitive opinion as to authenticity concerning any one particular specimen.


I'm no expert analyst, and what I've said here is only an opinion. But among the autograph collecting hobby, the salient characteristics of autopens are well known. And the "signatures" discussed here are completely consistent with those characteristics.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Leo Garet » December 1st, 2021, 1:43 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote: the question arises as to whether he has ever signed his name the same way twice?
https://www.historyforsale.com/signer-m ... ield/31345


As Bill Mullins notes, "Does Anybody?" Not really, as anyone who's ever signed a plastic card knows.

I recall reading an interview with George Harrison and at one point, for some reason he signed the name of all four Beatles. Apparently they were "perfect forgeries". One of many reasons why The Beatles autographs attract major scrutiny.

Generally though, signatures do become recognisable.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » December 1st, 2021, 2:52 pm

Remember, though, that the issue here is not confirming that these are genuine Copperfield signatures. It's confirming that they are autopen versions of Copperfield sigs. A much different (and easier) problem.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 1st, 2021, 3:28 pm

Bill, it looks to me like you are addressing my comments as if I disagreed with you in some way. I don't disagree with anything you've written in this thread (with the exception that you may have misinterpreted my last post). I have no quibble whatsoever with the thesis that at least a substantial portion of the books have been auto-penned. Again, I merely pointed out that, with regard to a some of the memorabilia that is for sale online allegedly bearing DC's signature, the "signatures," such as they are, look appreciably different from one to the other. I don't see how we get from there to attributing an opinion to me that signatures on the books are not auto-penned. In fact, given the variance in the signatures in the link I provided. in contrast to the uniformity of the "signatures" on the books in question, if anything, my post supports that there was auto-penning done on the books.

Furthermore, as to my comment regarding forensic handwriting experts, i was addressing the alleged signatures on the DC photos/memorabilia that's for sale; my comment should not be taken to mean that I think a forensic expert would have any difficulty whatsoever in determining whether the "signatures" on the books have been auto penned.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Bill Mullins » December 2nd, 2021, 12:02 am

I'm not trying to argue with you, and if it comes across that way, then I'm sorry, and offer that tone does not come across well on internet forums.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 2nd, 2021, 8:44 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, and if it comes across that way, then I'm sorry, and offer that tone does not come across well on internet forums.


No need to apologize at all. No worries.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » December 4th, 2021, 11:56 am

For those who wish to return the book, Talkshoplive did come through with a paid return label for the return (although had to email them a couple of times over a couple of weeks with the request). We'll see if the refund comes through as well.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby erdnasephile » December 14th, 2021, 9:56 am

To close the loop: TalkShopLive did issue a refund.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Andres Reynoso » December 29th, 2021, 10:43 am

Well, now B&N is offering the book (among much others) at 50% as special holidays sale. Either: regular, signed or B&N exclusive (4 or 6 extra pages) sale ends today. $17.50
Andres Reynoso

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 29th, 2021, 11:24 am

Most stores run holiday sales in the US.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Tarotist » December 29th, 2021, 12:14 pm

I actually saw loads of copies of the David Copperfield book in Walmart's the other day selling at $30 (Canadian dollars) each. I think it was a sale price offer. I did browse through a copy. I never thought to check any signatures so I can't comment on that. It did look to be a nice well produced book.

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Re: A Note Regarding the Upcoming Copperfield Museum Book

Postby Mark Tams » December 30th, 2021, 7:13 am

It did look to be a nice well produced book.


It IS a very nice and well produced book!

Very glad I got it . . . and . . . that I spent the extra buckola on the computer-generated/auto-pen signature!


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