Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

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Richard Kaufman
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Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Folks, I am now into my deep dive on the new and expanded edition of Greater Magic, scheduled for completion at the end of 2022.
The new edition will contain most of the material from the original (does anyone need 40 pages of instruction on cigarette tricks now or in the future--what do you think?) and then again as much. So there will be two 1000 page volumes.

I am greatly interested in your thoughts and suggestions about all areas of the book. At the moment there are two dozen people in our field writing new chapters based on their areas of expertise.

But every area of the book will be expanded, and I need your help! You can post your thoughts here, or send them to me privately at moobooks@verizon.net.

I'm looking for recommendations about the work of various magicians around the world, plus recommendations for specific tricks whether new or old. If you know of a great item in an old magazine or book or video that's little known, please let me know!

Many thanks.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Curtis Kam » April 29th, 2021, 3:31 pm

I hope you’ve got somebody doing the coin magic section. That was always the most disappointing chapter for me, especially when compared to how extensive the card magic section is, and likely will be.

As to the cigarettes, an awful lot of thought went into cig acts, and we learned quite a bit. Since a good part part of the value of this text is historical, “does anybody need in this day and age?” might not be a relevant question. After all, does anyone really need a bunch of card tricks from the 1930s?


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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 4:35 pm

Card tricks from the 1930s are equally as valid as they were then--you can still perform them.
Where can one perform cigarette magic except perhaps on the street or in a private home full of smokers (and then you're talking only about close-up magic, not manipulations).
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » April 29th, 2021, 4:40 pm

Replace cigarette magic with the similar but more modern Sharpie sleights.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 4:49 pm

Yes, something with Sharpies.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Ian Kendall » April 29th, 2021, 5:44 pm

I've seen a few things with golf pencils over the years - closer to the correct size.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 5:45 pm

Or peppermint sticks.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Ian Kendall » April 29th, 2021, 6:04 pm

Or very small sausages.

<getting silly now>

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Q. Kumber » April 29th, 2021, 6:39 pm

It is not particularly difficult to get a copy of any of the original editions/printings of Greater Magic. Most of it has stood the test of time.

My opinion is that whatever new material is being added should be able to also stand the test of time. Will it be relevant in fifty/eighty years time?

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 6:54 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:Or very small sausages.

<getting silly now>


Well, maybe in your case. :lol:
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 29th, 2021, 6:55 pm

Quentin, my goal is to create a book that will be held in the same regard in 100 years as we hold Greater Magic today.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 29th, 2021, 6:58 pm

Women in magic.

The long list of past greats has gotten longer - Lubor Fiedler, Fred Kaps, Dai Vernon....

Fake orientalism, be that Chinese or Arabic, is awkward. Understood most were trying to present the exotic and novel. Tattoos are almost mainstream. Animals as mistreated objects are just about out. Exotic pets are a thing.

Call it manipulation or cardistry; juggling and skill demonstration deserves its own discussion.

We have neodymium magnets, improved IT, WiFi, and Bluetooth. Billets are called post-its. Maybe not so much handwriting these days but we do have emoji.

Cell phones try to be our cameras, address books, maps, calendars and wallets. Siri knows almost everything. :)

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Curtis Kam » April 29th, 2021, 11:26 pm

Richard, you’ve correct that there are limited venues for cigarette magic, but is “can I perform this material as written?” really the only question we want to ask here? It isn’t the same question as “does anyone really need?” And I’m not sure performability should determine whether or not material belongs in the book.

Or should we also eliminate the other material that is currently unperformable because it involves fire, which is not permitted on many stages, or confetti, or is distastefully misogynistic, racist, or sacrilegious?


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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby EdwinCorrie » April 30th, 2021, 2:49 am

It might annoy some people but there should probably be something on rubber band tricks, which were not at all common when GM first came out.

And other personal likes would be topological card magic (including Card Warp, torn and restored etc.) and origami-related tricks. Also probably memorised deck effects and something on a few of the important mathematical principles (e.g. Gilbreath, Hummer).

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Max Maven » April 30th, 2021, 3:51 am

Greater Magic was published in 1938, by which time rubber bands had been around for about a century. The jumping rubber band trick that virtually every beginner learns was invented by Stanley Collins and published in late 1911. So while yes, there has been a boom of invention with rubber band magic that started in the 1970s, it's incorrect to suggest that it's a new field. (You want a great rubber band trick? Track down Ken Beale's "Baffler," published in 1950.)

On a broader topic, it's worth remembering that the premise of Greater Magic was to produce, essentially, an exploration of the "state of the art" at the time of its release. Richard's expanded version (with which I have agreed to help) should have that same premise. And yes, it should include rubber band magic.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby The Chris Randall » April 30th, 2021, 5:40 am

Maybe a chapter on the evolution of street magic from Cellini to Gazzo to even modern performers like myself or others.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby The Chris Randall » April 30th, 2021, 5:48 am

Also a chapter on thread work which hit a big boom in the last 30 years from Kevin James, Steve Fearson, Ammar, John Kennedy, the Houdinis UFO, the itr, the spider pen, elastic thread and loops and so many more innovations. You can even include some Al Baker work that may not have been a part of Greater Magic or older magic publications... Just a thought.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 30th, 2021, 12:06 pm

Was the Han Ping Chien coin sleight in Greater Magic? That, along with the Inertial Transfer (Dan Sylvester taught this) expanded practical coin magic.

Would H. Sawa be up for sharing some rope magic ideas?

Was the explanation of "Find the Lady" in GM entirely correct?

I vote for some additional words of caution around the chemistry items - especially making your own flashpaper using strong acids. Some of the powders... used in other items - no idea what that's about. Horse hoof wax?

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 30th, 2021, 12:24 pm

Han Ping Chien is not in Greater Magic, but it will be.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Bob Farmer » April 30th, 2021, 1:17 pm

Packet tricks: Roy Walton's "Cascade" and others; Max Maven's effects; and others. Perhaps a chapter on counts but with effects (as the explanations are easily found elsewhere. Math tricks.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Joe Lyons » April 30th, 2021, 2:24 pm

Photographs

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Eoin O'hare » April 30th, 2021, 2:31 pm

What about a chapter on card gaffing methods?
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 30th, 2021, 2:43 pm

Eoin, there are already sections in the book on various types of gimmicked cards, but they are generally for wide type use. In other words, double-backed, double-faced, and so on--things you can use in many tricks.
Do you have something specific in mind?
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Bill Mullins » April 30th, 2021, 2:52 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Han Ping Chien is not in Greater Magic, but it will be.


Then I suppose the Gallo Pitch should be in there as well, and possibly "H.P.C - C. P. H" (from Richard's Almanac).

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 30th, 2021, 3:07 pm

There's brief mention of how to make double backed cards on page 83 about locator cards.

"New Locator Cards" from page 478 (by Will De Sieve??) revisits the theme of locator cards - this time using a coin to make the impression that... :)

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 30th, 2021, 3:17 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote: So there will be two 1000 page volumes.
Have you considered five 400 page volumes instead - like the 1956 edition?

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby EdwinCorrie » April 30th, 2021, 6:58 pm

Max Maven wrote:Greater Magic was published in 1938, by which time rubber bands had been around for about a century. The jumping rubber band trick that virtually every beginner learns was invented by Stanley Collins and published in late 1911. So while yes, there has been a boom of invention with rubber band magic that started in the 1970s, it's incorrect to suggest that it's a new field. (You want a great rubber band trick? Track down Ken Beale's "Baffler," published in 1950.)


I don't think there weren't all that many real tricks with rubber bands, apart from the odd one here and there, and certainly not in Greater Magic. Most of the "classics" came after that, so in that sense it's a more modern genre.

Is the Ken Beale trick the one with the pen and business card in Karl Fulves' Self-Working Table Magic ("based on a trick by Ken Beale")? If not, or even if it is, could I ask where "Baffler" was published?

Another idea for the new Greater Magic: mechanical cards, e.g. moving pips, colour changing cards and acrobatic cards. Maybe that's what Eoin meant. There are lots in Conradi and Roterberg but nowhere else. Even some of the DeLand material might be worth a mention. The original Greater Magic seems to cover only some fairly basic "prepared cards".

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Eoin O'hare » April 30th, 2021, 7:52 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Eoin, there are already sections in the book on various types of gimmicked cards, but they are generally for wide type use. In other words, double-backed, double-faced, and so on--things you can use in many tricks.
Do you have something specific in mind?

I was thinking off the basics like splitting cards, to a more complicated type gaff like flap cards. Most material on card gaffing is pretty scattered. A careful choice of the type of gaffs taught could give a well rounded knowledge to those wanting to construct or create other types. More and more deck designs are being used by magicians but you can only get gaffs in a few designs.

Gaffers are an important part of magic but are becoming pretty rare, (just ask any magic company), creative ideas are stalling because of this. Maybe a card gaffing chapter would help reverse this?
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Bill Mullins » April 30th, 2021, 9:45 pm

EdwinCorrie wrote:Is the Ken Beale trick the one with the pen and business card in Karl Fulves' Self-Working Table Magic ("based on a trick by Ken Beale")? If not, or even if it is, could I ask where "Baffler" was published?


Hugard's Magic Monthly, March 1950 (and Max is right, it is a good trick).

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » April 30th, 2021, 10:29 pm

A section on Equivoque. Some interesting work has been done on this in the last few decades. Max, Berglas, Dan Harlan, Derren Brown...

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby The Chris Randall » April 30th, 2021, 11:00 pm

An illusions section by Jim Steinmyer and Don Wayne would be awesome between just those two men so many innovations. Illusions really evolved in the 90s and 2000s and would be a great update to the clunky boxes of the past.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 30th, 2021, 11:11 pm

Don Wayne is deceased.
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby The Chris Randall » April 30th, 2021, 11:46 pm

Omg i didnt know. He was such a sweet man. Omg im so sad now.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 1st, 2021, 12:09 am

@Illusions and stage magic ++Don Wayne's work. His Dancing Handkerchiefs using a bottle . The cabinet guys have kept working from Jarret's time. Including the team who got David Copperfield flying, preserved the Hooker Card rise and Robert-Houdin's Portfolio... Be nice to mention the career guys including Paul Daniels, David Berglass, Robert Harbin, ...

@Card gaffing - splitting cards is mentioned - also a rough description of how to make a "divided" card. It would be nice to have some mention of useful technique(s) to make misindexed cards, threaded (elastic and regular) cards, long cards, suitable card finishes for DIY printed cards, rough/smooth treatments... bridge size versus poker, double decks... If okay with the inventors - disposable decks and vanishing decks too :)

@Richard, is there any restriction on re-ordering the items as written if you keep the title and crediting intact?

Detail question for the coin guys: Yank Hoe's third version of Sympathetic Coins, page 690, uses an expanded shell or a cut-down coin with shell set?

By the way... some modern coin gaffs use magnets to hold a shell to an insert - and a slight twist to un-nest the gaff. Thank you Bob Swadling for the Double Deception set and the next generation for the twist action gaffs.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby The Chris Randall » May 1st, 2021, 6:05 am

@Jonathan stand up coin magic which you helped inspire Kenner and Troy should be included.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Edward Pungot » May 1st, 2021, 9:06 am

There should be a greater international representation that explores the Asian, Spanish, European, and other hidden influences of the world connection. If a book later on wishes to be translated into several languages, that would indeed be worthy of that title, than you have in your hands an international bestseller that will be sought after as the ultimate go- to reference book.

A Weber/Maven section would be nice on impromptu magic and mentalism.

I imagine The NY Symposium Books format and the original Greater Magic ambitiousness to tackle both specific pioneers and the current state of magic in general. It seems like a monumental World Magic Encyclopedia Britannica endeavor.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby EdwinCorrie » May 1st, 2021, 12:07 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
EdwinCorrie wrote:Is the Ken Beale trick the one with the pen and business card in Karl Fulves' Self-Working Table Magic ("based on a trick by Ken Beale")? If not, or even if it is, could I ask where "Baffler" was published?


Hugard's Magic Monthly, March 1950 (and Max is right, it is a good trick).


Thank you! Same basic trick, but Fulves uses a pen instead of the string (both seem good ideas). I got HMM recently but have only flicked through it so far.

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Tom Moore » May 1st, 2021, 5:29 pm

The Chris Randall wrote:An illusions section by Jim Steinmyer and Don Wayne would be awesome between just those two men so many innovations. Illusions really evolved in the 90s and 2000s and would be a great update to the clunky boxes of the past.


The single most important innovation in stage illusion design is CAD- the ability to shortcut dozens of generations of product development and design literally shaving 64ths of an inch off a base or calculating precisely how slim a hidden support can be in just a few days of computer power has changed the landscape forever. I can take a vague idea for a deception and put it through the equivalent of 50 years real world building and refinement before a single piece of wood or metal is cut. That is what fuelled the illusion boom in the 90’s and today has expanded to include modelling lighting and sight lines enabling me to produce prototypes that are 1000x better evolved than props built in the 1980’s
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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Sean-Dylan » May 1st, 2021, 11:35 pm

If you are going to include "Rubber Band Magic", get Joe Rindfleisch involved. I am convinced he is the Dai Vernon on this subject.
He can speak to to theory, has created endless tricks and routines PLUS he can write!

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Re: Your Suggestions for the New Edition of Greater Magic

Postby Philippe Noël » May 2nd, 2021, 5:27 am

It would be great to have a trick by Armando Lucero described.


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