Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

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Joe Mckay
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Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 11th, 2021, 2:53 pm

Has anyone got any advice here?

I feel like there should be a more elegant method than simply riffling off 2 cards and getting a thumb break.

Cheers!

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Sean Piper » March 11th, 2021, 3:44 pm

Use your pinky on the same hand holding the deck, and just pull down. Takes some time to develop the touch to know you've got the required number of cards, but it's a simple and elegant solution that is invisible.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Brad Henderson » March 11th, 2021, 4:12 pm

Pull inward on the outer right bottom corner of the pack with the left hand forefinger.

This will cause the cards on the bottom to buckle open at the inner right end. Grab the break with the left pinky.

It’s like the rosenthal pop up move but exactly the opposite.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 11th, 2021, 4:34 pm

The type of Buckle which Brad describes was created by Cliff Green and is in his book. Larry Jennings used it extensively. Nothing to do with Harvey Rosenthal.
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Joe Lyons » March 11th, 2021, 4:53 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The type of Buckle which Brad describes was created by Cliff Green and is in his book.

And in Mr. Jennings takes it easy.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Jeffrey Cowan » March 11th, 2021, 6:46 pm

What Sean Piper said has worked for me for a long time. Sort of a reverse pinky count. But I'm no cardician, so there likely are advantages to the method that Brad describes.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 11th, 2021, 6:51 pm

Sean Piper wrote:Use your pinky on the same hand holding the deck, and just pull down. Takes some time to develop the touch to know you've got the required number of cards, but it's a simple and elegant solution that is invisible.


I did this for years until I learned the Cliff Green technique.
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Yehuda » March 11th, 2021, 8:58 pm

Also Marlo's Kick-Count (or, "Kick-off Count"). Your right hand needs to be contacting the deck, so it may not be as good as some of these other techniques. but I think it's more elegant than just thumb- riffling because there's no movement or tension of the right hand.

Yehuda

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Jeffrey Cowan » March 11th, 2021, 10:43 pm

Richard, what is the advantage of the Cliff Green technique over the way that, Sean, you and I have done it? Better cover from the right side of the body? Something else? Thanks!
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Bill Duncan » March 11th, 2021, 11:30 pm

Yehuda wrote:Also Marlo's Kick-Count (or, "Kick-off Count"). Your right hand needs to be contacting the deck, so it may not be as good as some of these other techniques. but I think it's more elegant than just thumb- riffling because there's no movement or tension of the right hand.

Yehuda

This is pretty much what I've used for years. I added a touch that might be of interest:
Dribble the cards so they are loosely un-squared.
Buckle the bottom card as Brad described before you hands come together to square.
As the top hand begins the squaring action the bottom hand's fourth finger pushes up and out in a side steal-like action.
while the top hand squares the card pinky leaves the face of the second card, extends past the edge and pulls down as it assists in squaring the pack.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 12th, 2021, 9:23 am

The Cliff Green technique works really well in my hands.

Thanks to Brad for the suggestion. That is the second time in a couple of weeks that Brad has come through for me!

Also - the card that is second from the bottom of the deck is an odd-backed card. So it is nice that I also have a visual check to make sure I have bucked exactly two cards.

Thanks guys!

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Bill Mullins » March 12th, 2021, 10:10 am

Pinkie count 50 cards down from the top of the deck. Works every time . . .

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Will Power » March 12th, 2021, 10:13 am

Just do two separate pinkie pull downs on the bottom two cards.

Will.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Leo Garet » March 12th, 2021, 11:01 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Pinkie count 50 cards down from the top of the deck. Works every time . . .

I tried that and fell asleep about the eleventeenth break.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Leo Garet » March 12th, 2021, 11:05 am

I have no doubt that Cliff Green did create the technique described by Brad Henderson. But was he the only one? I came up with this before I'd ever heard of Cliff Green. I'm right-handed, but the Magic World says I'm left-handed, because I deal from a right hand grip. This fact caused me to learn the bottom palm I use to this day before I tackled a top palm. Along the way, in aiming for a single card, I'd often buckle two, three and sometimes four cards. Happenstance, but it's come in useful over the years.

I saw Cliff Green once on TV. Also Jerry Andrus. My memory's hazy but I think it was on the same show, a news bit advertising the British Ring Convention in Southport. Circa 1961/63. Andrus did the Linking Pins and Green did something I don't recall. However I can see him standing, palming cards with what looked like very big hands.

Gus Southall was on the same programme, different day but publicising the convention. The show was a Northern News thing from Manchester. Being a local chap, Gus was an easy choice. Unsurprisingly, he was very good.

Now then, having scribbled all that I had a look at the convention programmes for 1961 and 1963. Cliff Green was in Southport in 1961 and Jerry Andrus was in Harrogate in 1963. Nothing Super-Power about my memory. Past times, another era, Names To Conjure With.

No luck with the Gus Southall appearance. Oh well.


https://britishring.org.uk/previous-venues/

https://britishring.org.uk/wp-content/u ... 201963.pdf

https://britishring.org.uk/wp-content/u ... 201963.pdf

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2021, 11:26 am

To be clear I was not suggesting any creative/historical lineage between rosenthal and the move i described. (A move I, along with others I’m sure, have discovered independently.)l I only offered it as an analogy because the moves are basically the same, except with everything done upside down and backwards. I, along with others I’m sure, was unaware of the Green credit. The rosenthal move is more well known and I hoped the comparison may have helped others explore the technique. Glad to know the reference.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 12th, 2021, 11:31 am

The Cliff Green technique (seems that he was the first, using this in the '20s or '30s) involves no overt finger movement. The activity of the left first finger is not only under the deck, it's very slight. It also doesn't fail.
Using your left pinky to pull down those cards one at a time involves more movement, and a greater chance to fail.
But, like everything else, you need to use what's best for you.
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 12th, 2021, 11:32 am

And Leo, the Magic Circle has footage of Cliff Green appearing at the IBM convention in England.
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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » March 12th, 2021, 12:04 pm

What works well for me is to just spread the deck in my hands face down, along with some casual comment like, "Somewhere in the deck is your card" (or whatever comment might be appropriate to the trick at that point.) As the cards are squared back up, it's very easy to get a break under two cards, or however many cards you need. Tilting the deck downward a bit as you square up makes any hint of a move invisible.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby Leo Garet » March 12th, 2021, 12:07 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:And Leo, the Magic Circle has footage of Cliff Green appearing at the IBM convention in England.


Thanks for that. Useful and very interesting. With a bit of luck I might be able to access it.

No criticism of Green intended. I just thought I was contributing to the discussion, particularly the convention programmes. That's all.

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Re: Best way to get a break above the card second from bottom of the deck?

Postby John M. Dale » March 12th, 2021, 12:27 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The Cliff Green technique (seems that he was the first, using this in the '20s or '30s) involves no overt finger movement. The activity of the left first finger is not only under the deck, it's very slight. It also doesn't fail.
Using your left pinky to pull down those cards one at a time involves more movement, and a greater chance to fail.
But, like everything else, you need to use what's best for you.



I was reading the description of the Cliff Green move in Jennings ‘67 last night in the first trick in the book (Another Four Card Trick).

It’s described there using your second finger to do the buckle instead of the index finger which is how I had originally learned it. I played with using the second finger and it seems that doing it this way the index finger gives a bit of cover while the second does the dirty work.

JMD


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