Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

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Brad Henderson
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 20th, 2021, 7:41 pm

Anytime

That’s the nature of the presentational symbol - as opposed to the discursive symbols. The latter has both connotation and denotation, the former only connotation. Their meanings (presentational symbols) are ‘all at once’ experienced and created by juxtaposition with other symbolic strictures

What does ‘blue’ mean?

Well, it depends - when Picasso painted the actor in blue it conveyed dramatically different meaning than, say, the use of blue in magritte’s work.

And even then we can’t ‘say’ what the blue means because it means something truly ineffable. It conveys a feeling. A different feeling in each case

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 20th, 2021, 7:58 pm

I recently saw a trick where a magician tried to add "meaning" to the Hydrostatic Glass:

https://youtu.be/RsKrzwa5uu8?t=342

In light of the current conversation - this would be an example of using magic as a visual metaphor to reinforce the message you are communicating. I see this a lot in magic. But I don't think it cuts as deeply as the type of art that people strive for when they talk about triggering a "feelingful response".

Since you are replicating an idea that can just as easily be expressed in words. Thanks to Brad for pointing out this crucial point to me.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 20th, 2021, 8:57 pm

Way too much ‘magic with meaning’ loses all power when the magician defines everything.

They do this - I believe - from a lack of trust in the intelligence in their audience or fear they can’t convey their meaning without spelling it out.

The moment we ‘define’ a symbol for the audience we kill its power.

This is why most gospel magic is so bad. Which is a shame, because the symbols available are so incredibly rich and powerful (just by virtue of centuries of use). Even my mere reference to them positively will make some people angry!

Nevertheless gospel magicians have managed to take these incredibly charged potential resources and render them not just impotent, but tacky.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Lyons » June 21st, 2021, 12:02 am

Brad Henderson wrote:The moment we ‘define’ a symbol for the audience we kill its power.

That’s the paradox of definition. Intuitively, one would think defining something would impart power to both the object being defined and and the subject through clarification - but the opposite is true.

That’s why books are generally preferred to the movies made from them and magicians are usually better off learning from books rather than aping actions exactly from instructional videos.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 23rd, 2021, 9:33 am

Andy published his variation on some ideas I sent him.

https://www.thejerx.com/blog/2021/6/22/51-cases-south

I was inspired by an old idea by Dr Sawa. But it was the Suzanne K. Langer book (thanks Brad for the recommendation) that gave me the push I needed. Andy takes my idea and goes in a different direction.

My original idea was to show all the cases to be empty by knocking them over like a domino rally. I still really like that handling and it is the handling I still prefer. There are different ways to use that idea but that was the key image I was shooting for. How can you use the logical relationship of objects to communicate an idea (51 cases are empty and one case is full of cards)?

The way I use it is to make all the decks "vanish" (a suggestion from Andy). You then have the spectator point to one case - and then knock over the domino rally of empty cases. And they all knock the next one over before stopping on the case that you asked the spectator to point to.

You can then go into an invisible deck trick or an ACAAN trick at that point.
Last edited by Joe Mckay on June 23rd, 2021, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 23rd, 2021, 9:41 am

The Dr Sawa idea can be found here. I have sent Andy a message with the crediting.

viewtopic.php?t=52620

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jack Shalom » June 23rd, 2021, 12:04 pm

Some nice ideas there, but I feel the "vanish" is unconvincing. Knocking over decks of cards on a distant stage doesn't prove vanish to me. "Vanish" means gone, nowhere to be found. It will be disappointing to an audience to declare a vanish and they never actually get to see the vanish.

The extreme situation of this: I stand on a very sensitive scale for all to see. I put a coin in my closed fist and then indicate that the scale has not moved. Hence the coin must have vanished.

I just don't think vanish by implication is strong magic.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 23rd, 2021, 4:22 pm

Good point.

Implied vanishes are never that convincing.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

I really like the idea of using the domino rally idea to show that only one case actually contains cards.

And that the rest are empty.

A Penn & Teller-esque idea I had was this:

Have the cases lined up and a laptop on your table. You then talk about how much easier it is to fool people on Zoom than it is in real life.

You have a spectator speak to you over Zoom (even though they are in the same room as you). You then have the spectator name a playing card. A helper then walks up to the row of card cases and hands one to you.

You then show the spectator their card reversed in the deck. Of course - since the spectator is in the same room as you - they will not be impressed since they will be fully aware of the method (that took place off-camera).

You then end the Zoom call and tell the spectator that performing a trick like that is much more difficult out here in the real world.

You then place the deck of cards back in the middle of the domino rally and knock over the card cases - showing the rest of the cases are empty.

--------------------

I don't think this idea is fully there yet. But I will keep working on it. I just know there must be some way to combine something like an invisible deck with the image of the domino rally.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 23rd, 2021, 5:01 pm

There are two main versions of Vernon's "Twisting the Aces." The original, in which the twisted Aces turn face up. The second version is by Karl Fulves, and the twisted Aces turn face down. The second is far less effective because the spectators must look at the three face-up Aces and deduce which is face down. Bad method.
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 23rd, 2021, 5:30 pm

However the Fulves version is often presented with the kicker of the back backs changing. Which actually takes advantage of the deductive nature of the initial effect. It causes one to continual focus on the one element that suggests the turn over (the backs) thereby strengthening the surprise when the change is revealed.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 23rd, 2021, 6:56 pm

I disagree. Taking a weak handling for a trick and throwing in color-changing backs to distract from the weak handling does not make good magic.
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 24th, 2021, 10:24 am

The face up spread version feels like a different effect. A packet of face up aces is shown and somehow one of the aces turns face down. Which one is face down changes each time the cards are displayed. After the fourth display the cards are again shown to be face up. When the cards are turned over as a packet they are seen to have different colored backs.
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 24th, 2021, 10:27 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I disagree. Taking a weak handling for a trick and throwing in color-changing backs to distract from the weak handling does not make good magic.


You are focusing on the wrong magic. The color change is good magic. It’s clear and strong

The twisting part serves merely as prologue.

The color change isn’t meant to distract from the weak handling. The color change is the point.

The rest of the trick is an arc to get to that.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 24th, 2021, 1:48 pm

I have a packet trick I've been doing for years which, IMHO, combines the best of both worlds -- and then some. "You Must Have Been Drinking," by Jerry Somerdin. Four aces are shown face up. One at a time, each ace turns face-down. Then all four aces are shown to be face-up once again. The spectator is then asked what color the backs of the cards are. Spectator says "Blue." Magician says: "You must have been drinking" and shows the backs are all red. Magician says, "In fact, you must have been drinking beer, because look, you got beer all over my cards!" Each back is now shown to have now turned into a recognizable beer logo: Budweiser, Bud Lite, Miller, and the dog, Spuds McKenzie. Loaded with magic and far more commercial than twisting the aces.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 24th, 2021, 3:15 pm

That is the effect we are speaking of

It’s been released by many people by many names. I learned it as a kid and it was called ‘nebula card’.

These were all copies.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 24th, 2021, 3:46 pm

No, Nebula Card is different. It's the same as far as the each card turning face down sequence. Then the backs turn all different colors and it's over. Somerdin's trick, whether called a "copy" or not, has the fantastic kicker after the color change of the backs from blue to red, of the backs changing yet again (to the beer cards). Although Nebula is good, "You Must Have been Drinking" is not only significantly different, but stronger and more commercial than Nebula.

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/ ... a-11275425

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 24th, 2021, 4:13 pm

I like the version where the kicker ending is that you tell the spectator the secret to the trick.

It's all done with mirrors.

And then you reveal mirrored backs to the cards.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 24th, 2021, 4:23 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:I like the version where the kicker ending is that you tell the spectator the secret to the trick.

It is all done with mirrors.

And then you reveal mirrored backs to the cards.


Yes, it is clever!

One of my very faves is "Eye Exam," an ingenious routine by Danny Archer, which uses both a full deck and a packet. There is so much magic and surprise in it, and lots of opportunities for highly entertaining patter.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 24th, 2021, 4:54 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:No, Nebula Card is different. It's the same as far as the each card turning face down sequence. Then the backs turn all different colors and it's over. Somerdin's trick, whether called a "copy" or not, has the fantastic kicker after the color change of the backs from blue to red, of the backs changing yet again (to the beer cards). Although Nebula is good, "You Must Have been Drinking" is not only significantly different, but stronger and more commercial than Nebula.

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/ ... a-11275425


They are all copy the fulves foundational concept.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 24th, 2021, 5:52 pm

I set myself the challenge of coming up with an "artistic" presentation for The Hydrostatic Glass.

I got nowhere.

I have read a lot of books and seen a lot of lectures on creativity and art over the past few months, and I can see why I was having no success. Thanks to this research, I have started to make real progress with my own creativity.

So, if I can do it - anyone can...

The key is this:

Creativity is a "bottom-up" process and not a "top-down" process.

As such - you need to explore interesting and compelling ideas. And from time to time - you will stumble across the perfect trick that will help you communicate that idea. You cannot make it happen on demand. It is down to chance alone. Although - of course - "chance favors the prepared mind".

If you start with a trick and try and figure out a presentation for it - you will end up with ideas that are too logical.

And uninspired.

You will not allow chance to grant you a lucky break where 2-3 different ideas collide at once in the perfect trick.

Idea Space is infinite. And it is highly unlikely that the solution you are looking for is going to be directly linked to the trick you are currently mulling over.

Instead - you have to start with ideas. And occasionally - you will stumble across a combination of ideas that fit perfectly with a trick that you already know.

And for me - if I am lucky - one day that trick will be The Hydrostatic Glass...

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 24th, 2021, 7:05 pm

That point really does strike a chord...

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 24th, 2021, 7:17 pm

Start here:

What comes to mind when you think about water?
How does water make you feel?
What about the effect? Hell. What IS the effect?

When you see water suspended like that, how does it make you feel? Are there any things in the world that come to mind when you experience that? Anything that would NEVER come to mind?

Can you change how you feel when you experience this? What would it take? What are those new feelings? How strong can you make them?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 24th, 2021, 7:36 pm

Here is a quote from Anton Chekhov I have found helpful:

"Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."

When you are communicating an idea - it is better if you can nest that idea inside something else.

Communicate the idea indirectly.

And visually.

The idea then becomes one that the audience notices themselves. As opposed to it being an idea that is pointed out to them.

And since you are relying on the audience to notice the idea themselves - each one will have their own interpretation.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 27th, 2021, 8:41 am

The most important part of any script is not the words.

It is the structure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGUNqq3jVLg

And that is invisible.

This is why true creativity is a "bottom-up" and not a "top-down" process. Your creative breakthrough depends on discovering something that is invisible to the eye. As such - you have to explore different ideas until eventually you have a happy accident where two of the ideas combine in a way that reveals an invisible connection.

And ultimately it is chance that will reveal that connection. The connection will be blindingly obvious once you see it. And you will rewrite history in your mind to suggest that this was the goal all along. And everyone else will believe you since the connection is so obvious.

But that is not what really happened. The only way to discover invisible things is to randomly bump into them.

The moment you start with a prop and try and write a script for it - you are trying to look for something that is invisible.

But you cannot see something that is invisible just by looking for it.

You have to randomly bump into it and then see it with your heart.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 27th, 2021, 10:49 am

Here is an example (again from South Park) that shows this process at work.

It is the story behind the infamous "Fish Sticks" episode of South Park that parodied Kanye West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdZnGz9CWpU

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 10th, 2021, 8:14 pm

My favourite movie is Glengarry Glen Ross. As such, when I was younger I used to fantasize about being a screenwriter since I admired writers like David Mamet so much. As a result, I read all of his books on the art of screenwriting.

20 years later and I have started to explore similar ideas again. Not from the point of view of writing plays/movies. But from the point of adding dramatic impact to the structure of magic.

I have spent the past couple of days watching interviews with David Mamet. I have also checked out the Masterclass he gave on writing drama. And I am going to re-read his book, 'Three Uses of The Knife'.

Now - the most powerful idea I have come across in magic is Michael Weber's concept of 'The Inevitable Surprise':

viewtopic.php?t=52951

David Mamet is a big fan of this concept as well. He thinks it is the key to effective drama (and joke telling for that matter). He says the concept belongs to Aristotle who wrote about it in Poetics.

It is quite an intellectual rush when you realise that the only piece of magic theory that ever clicked with you is at the heart of your favourite writer's work. And goes all the way back to Aristotle.

Anyway - I just wanted to provide this update since it fits in with some of the questions raised by this thread.

First of all - the intellectual challenge of writing an artistic presentation for the Hydrostatic Glass (which is a wonderful trick). The key would be to find a presentation that raises one idea that then contrasts with the surprising visual of the water remaining inside the glass - that then expresses a punchline that is both surprising and inevitable.

The structure of a joke is what you are aiming for here. The problem with magic as metaphor is that it expresses an idea directly. As opposed to revealing an idea in the mind of the spectator as they figure out the "punchline" to the presentation.

When Derren Brown talks about magic revealing ideas instead of reveling in them - I think this is what he has in mind.

Revelling in ideas = metaphors

Revealing ideas = punchlines

So what type of presentation for the Hydrostatic Glass would result in the final image of the trick being the "punchline" (inevitable surprise) to the presentation?

Again it is a case of figuring out a presentation that ends on an "inevitable surprise". And then seeing if it will work with a trick like the Hydrostatic Glass. Each time you come across a good magic presentation that ends on some kind of twist ending - ask yourself if the trick would be improved if the trick made use of the strong visual ending of the Hydrostatic Glass instead?

This is why I am a big fan of magic gags. They are dumb, but they are also clever. Since they deliver a surprise that seems inevitable in hindsight (eg the "No" gag or the Barcode gag). It is actually harder to come up with a dumb magic gag than it is a good magic trick.

Endings that are surprising, but inevitable just happen to be much rarer than good magic tricks.

If you want to create art in magic you have to be witty, not deep. You can express ideas with magic, but you need a light and playful touch. Like you find in a great piece of wit. Your message has to be expressed in a surprising way.

As soon as you lose the surprise your trick turns into a soapbox. That is not art. That is annoying.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm

One other thing. There already exists a presentation for the Hydrostatic Glass that fits the structure of the Inevitable Surprise.

It is the classic Alan Shaxon presentation that ends with the line: "This is Science....This is Magic....And that's all."

You set the audience up by making them think they are witnessing a scientific demonstration.

And then the magic trick becomes the punchline.

That is a much more satisfying structure than simply slapping a metaphor on top of the trick. The solution to most presentations lies not in the scripting or the words.

But in the structure.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » July 12th, 2021, 1:14 pm

Presentation and structure are not two different things.

And yes, you can have a meaningful presentation for the hydrostatic glass. I experienced a beautiful and powerful one as part of the first (and only) Mysterium conference during a ritual theater performance in the woods on Mt Charleston. There was one moment that was truly unforgettable - produced by the careful and unique use of a very powerful symbol in conjunction with the effect.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 12th, 2021, 3:00 pm

Here are some movie commentaries from David Mamet (Ricky Jay features as well). They all seem to be from The Spanish Prisoner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5LUTZ1H9A

David Mamet believes the Inevitable Surprises kicks in a physiological response in the human brain.

It seems we overlook the fact that logical thinking can deliver an emotional response.

A rush of endorphines kick in when we successfuly use our sharp wits to escape from a life and death situation (such as an animal escaping from a burning forest).

And this is the type of sensation that the Inevitable Surprise also delivers. It is a primal type of thinking that we share with animals. The sudden realisation of the solution that we instinctively know is correct.

As opposed to the "higher" level of abstraction that evolution has yet to find a way to combine with an emotional reward (since solving a differential equation will rarely help you avoid death).

I think the best art delivers a beautiful image that also communicates an idea. The idea does not have to be profound. Instead it is like seeing a fingerprint in a painting. It reminds you that this image was intentional and didn't happenly randomly. The idea that is communicated reminds that the spectator - on an unconcious level - that there is somebody out there trying to communicate with them.

In this case, that person is the artist.

The point of art is not to communicate a message.

It is simply to connect with the audience using a language other than words.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 13th, 2021, 6:20 pm

This seems to be (yet another) thread I have turned into a blog.

Apologies!

I just want to encourage more people to try and explore ideas and create something without absolutely no idea where they are going. Your best ideas are the ones you will stumble across. It might happen slowly or it might happen fast (unlikely).

But it is guaranteed to happen. Eventually.

Paul Graham is one of my favourite writers. He wrote a (non-boring!) essay on... how to write essays. And he does a great job of communicating the advantages of this style of thinking:

http://www.paulgraham.com/essay.html

Along similar lines are his thoughts on the true nature of genius (which also goes back to the concept of just randomly exploring ideas):

http://www.paulgraham.com/genius.html

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 13th, 2021, 7:19 pm

This (banned) commercial is the perfect example of the Inevitable Surprise.

I agree with David Mamet that some of the best writing can be found in commercials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi47UcyK4Ms

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » August 11th, 2021, 11:21 pm

I think I stumbled on an important truth earlier in this thread with the following statement:

When Derren Brown talks about magic revealing ideas instead of reveling in them - I think this is what he has in mind.

Revelling in ideas = metaphors

Revealing ideas = punchlines

The important point is this. With a metaphor you deliver an idea.

With a punchline the spectator receives the same idea. Except because they had to put in a bit of effort to figure it out for themselves - they are also rewarded with a dopamine hit. Also - since it is the spectator who is figuring out the idea for themself - it does not come across as pretentious or indulgent in the way that metaphors often can.

That is two key benefits right there.

Also - don't be distracted by the word 'punchline'. A punchline applies to jokes. But the exact same concept applies to good magic.

Except we don't call them punchlines. We call them 'inevitable surprises':

viewtopic.php?t=52951

I just wanted to combine these two ideas from earlier in the thread into this one post. I feel like this is the conclusion I was looking for all along.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » August 12th, 2021, 7:49 am

I love reading. And I only ever read non-fiction. As such, I am always keeping an eye out for new areas to study.

One of the reasons I decided to spend the past couple of years working on creating original ideas for my magic is that it would give me an excuse to study books on creativity.

Here are the books I have found most helpful:

1) Creativity: A Short and Practical Guide

https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-dp-17 ... 786332256/

This is a short book by John Cleese. John Cleese has always been fascinated by both psychology and the creative process. He wrote this book in order to distill his findings (as both a creative person and somebody who has studied the topic a lot). He very much wrote this book in order for it to be as short as possible with absolutely no filler.

2) Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind: How Intelligence Increases When You Think Less

https://www.amazon.com/Hare-Brain-Torto ... 0060955414

This book argues the same points as the John Clesse book. It doesn't seem to be a famous book, and I only came across it because John Cleese recommended it. It is an amazing book which is packed full of fascinating scientific research to back up the argument that John Cleese makes in his book.

3) A Technique for Producing Ideas: A Simple Five Step Formula for Producing Ideas

https://www.amazon.com/technique-produc ... 515307972/

This book is similar to the John Cleese book. And even shorter. It is a classic book from the 1930's written by an advertising executive. It gives you a foolproof technique for harnessing the unconscious to come up with new ideas.

4) Ignore Everybody: and 39 Other Keys to Creativity

https://www.amazon.com/Ignore-Everybody ... 159184259X

I found this book very helpful. Not so much in advice about creativity. But in terms of allowing me to understand the idea of art from a new perspective. I have never understood stuff like Picasso or van Gogh - I don't understand why they are supposed to be good. But this book helped me understand this area from a new perspective.

He argues you should focus on being as original as possible. And then people will be drawn to your work not so much because of the content - but because it is compelling watching an artist embrace the sovereignty of creation (i.e freedom to do what you want) by being totally unfiltered in how they attack the blank page.

People admire artists who stand out and make bold decisions. As opposed to editing themselves or trying to follow the crowd.

Art is so subjective that nobody really knows what is good or not. What I have noticed is that if somebody doesn't like something - they say it is rubbish and then dismiss it as a dismal attempt to do something similar.

If you do something radically original - people are unable to brush off your work in the same way. Since there is literally nothing else to compare it with - they have to engage with your art and judge it on its own merits.

This has two benefits.

Firstly, it increases engagement with your art. And secondly, because there is nothing to compare it to - nobody can ever be quite sure if you are brilliant or rubbish. It takes so long for a consensus to form when judging art. And that consensus can change over time (usually after the artist is dead).

As such - nobody can ever be certain you are bad when you are original.

Originality is not a guarantee you will be good. But it is a guarantee that nobody can ever dismiss your work as being bad with total confidence. Since they have no way of comparing you to another artist where a consensus has already formed about the value of that style of work.

This book was also recommended by Danny Garcia.

I am fascinated how the consensus around certain people who were once considered incredible or bad changes over time. On eof my all-time favourite books covers this topic. It is about people forgotten by history. What is intriguing is that these people were considered to be geniuses when they were alive. It is by Paul Collins (who is my all-time favourite writer).

https://www.amazon.com/Banvards-Folly-T ... 0312300336

I have Asperger's syndrome. So I often find I am pretty dumb. But once I fully understand a concept - I can drill down much deeper into it than most. Since at that point it is about spotting hidden patterns in a concept as opposed to discovering the concept in the first place. So, I find it very helpful to do this type of reading when trying to create art.

I should add that I am a fan of commercial art. Stuff with popular appeal. So, even though I stressed the importance of originality above - I think the real goal is to be both original and accessible.

It is not hard to be "original" if that is your only goal (a magic act devoted to 6 letter words where the third letter is a Y - performed one handed - performed in latin). The aim is to be original in a way that genuinely excites you. That is what you should aim for. Then you have a good chance of creating something that is both compelling and worthwhile.

Finally, everyone should embrace the chance to discover original new ideas. Anyone can do it. But it is much easier once you know the techniques involved.

It is a bit like the concept of Zen. It is a simple concept but you need to reframe how you think about things. All you need to be creative is a lot of patience. That is it. As long as you stick with it - over time your unconscious will deliver surprising new ideas. And once you have enough of those ideas - you can start separating them out into good and bad. Or mull over them so that your unconscious starts producing new ideas in that direction. You just need to decide that you will be creative and commit to it (always have a way of recording ideas on you and by your bed). The rest will follow from that.

Everyone has an unconscious that is truly brilliant.

It is just about tapping into that power.

And then recording it on paper.

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » August 12th, 2021, 8:00 am

One other thing.

I found this small booklet by Hector Chadwick to be brilliant when it comes to understanding the creative process and how it applies to magic.

https://hectorchadwick.co.uk/2017/01/18 ... en-things/

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 12th, 2021, 6:04 pm

I completed my journey today.

I have spent the past 2.5 years working on my magic show.

Although the first main chunk of it was what I call fun research. Just noodling around and using the writing of a magic show as an excuse to buy more magic books and go over old magic books.

It is only over the past ten months that I have spent hundreds of hours confronting a blank page.

I got there in the end.

Eventually.

I have five shows I have finished now.

Metamagic.

That is the future of magic.

I found David Mamet's Masterclass on Dramatic Writing to be the most helpful thing in my journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6TvEogjkk

He was good enough for Ricky Jay.

And he was good enough for me.

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 12th, 2021, 6:31 pm

A key piece of advice I got was from Mark Levy:

If you don't surprise yourself, you won't surprise your audience.

This is the key to being creative. Toss out any ideas that did not surprise you when you came up with them.

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 12th, 2021, 7:06 pm

David Mamet is a big advocate of the idea of expressing ideas in the form of punchlines.

This idea goes all the way back to Aristotle.

I discussed Suzanne K. Langer a lot in this thread. She died back in 1985 and her most famous work was written in 1942.

This leads me to wonder if David Mamet's point that "punchlines" lie at the heart of art was correct all along. And the reason Suzaane K. Langer did not recognise this was because stand-up comedy was not famous back when she wrote her most famous books, and also because the release of dopamine when a brain recognises an idea that is surprising was not a well known fact back in the 1940's?

Here is what I have found about the history of Dopamine on wikipedia:

Dopamine was first synthesized in 1910 by George Barger and James Ewens at Wellcome Laboratories in London, England and first identified in the human brain by Katharine Montagu in 1957.

It was named dopamine because it is a monoamine whose precursor in the Barger-Ewens synthesis is 3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine (levodopa or L-DOPA). Dopamine's function as a neurotransmitter was first recognized in 1958 by Arvid Carlsson and Nils-Åke Hillarp at the Laboratory for Chemical Pharmacology of the National Heart Institute of Sweden.

Carlsson was awarded the 2000 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for showing that dopamine is not only a precursor of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline), but is also itself a neurotransmitter.

It seems to me that Suzanne K. Langer was not in a position to truly understand the role of Dopamine in the feeling of art in the mind of spectators.

This is something that David Mamet places an emphasis on in his analysis of art.

Joe Mckay

PS David Mamet wrote my favourite movie. It is called Glengarry Glen Ross. I would recommend that everyone check it out!

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 16th, 2021, 5:29 pm

I came up with a cool idea for a video communicating how to be creative.

It is based on what I have learned over the past year.

Imagine this video.

You are throwing dozens of darts at a dartboard.

And you turn to the camera and say you are terrible at darts.

You then say that being creative is easy.

You just have to keep trying until you hit the bullseye.

Then throw away your unsuccessful attempts.

You then walk up to dartboard - and remove all the darts.

Except one.

Which is on the bullseye.

You then tell the camera that you just have to do this a few times - and then link together your successes with a logical thread.

As you say this - you have a circle of dartboards on the ground - six in total (each with a single dart on the bullseye) - and you are wrapping wool around each dart to form a big circle.

You turn to the camera and say: Do do that a few times.

And you have a show.

The camera pans out - to reveal about 30 dart boards - each with a dart in the bullseye - lying on the floor - all connected with wool to spell out the word SHOW.

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 16th, 2021, 5:48 pm

I just want to link to my first post on the GENII forum.

I am not 100% sure it was my first post. But I think there is a good chance it was.

viewtopic.php?t=11041#p115310

I just think magic historians will find the current thread interesting. And as such - it is worth reminding them of my earliest postings on magic since it reflected a point of view that would eventually blossom into something quite unique (i.e. the six magic shows I recently finished writing).

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » November 19th, 2021, 6:46 pm

I can pull this thread full circle now since I recently stumbled across a trick by Derren Brown that is a great example of structuring a trick so that it delivers a punchline (reveals an idea) as opposed to the usual 'magic as metaphor' approach (revelling in an idea).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McS17KKcm64

The idea revealed is ulitmately a simple one. But it doesn't matter - so are the punchlines to most jokes. Yet it is still enough to provide a satisfying dopamine hit.

Magic plus drugs (aka dopamine hits that your brain naturally provides free of charge when successfully triggered) is the strongest magic of all.


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