Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

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Joe Mckay
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Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » February 25th, 2021, 1:34 am

There is a quote in Absolute Magic where Derren Brown says that "...art should reveal ideas and not revel in them."

I am guessing what he means is that the best art is a perform fit of the medium and the message. Whereas when you start discussing ideas during a show - you relegate the art to a kind of "second-rate" art. I guess this is because you want the trick to raise the idea you want them to think about on a subconscious level rather than on a conscious level (through the use of words).

Art has more impact when it creeps in through the backdoor.

I am a big fan of Schrodinger's Card by Jon Allen. And my guess would be that the effect would be weakened by drawing the obvious parallels between the climax of the trick and the Schrodinger's Cat paradox. It is better if that idea pops up naturally in the mind of the spectator (either at the time of the trick or later on).

I am just curious if this is a common mistake that people make? They are so caught up in the idea of communicating ideas - that they end up reveling in them rather than using their art to reveal them?

I think this is a trap I could be prone to falling into. That is why I am curious to see what others thought about this quote?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » February 25th, 2021, 1:41 am

I would recommend the work of Suzanne Langer, especially Philosophy in a New Key. It addresses well what you seem to be expressing, but in a manner that communicates WHY this is problematic from a symbolic/aesthetic perspective.

Now, as to what Derren is attempting to communicate - what do you think he means by the word ‘revel’ and how would that apply to how we often seen magic ‘artists’ present their ‘art’?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » February 25th, 2021, 2:06 am

Thanks for the Langer recommendation. I had that book years ago - but never read it. I am going to read it now, since there is nothing better than reading a philosophy book when it directly addresses a question you are struggling with.

Cheers!

As for the what Derren had in mind? I cannot say. I don't see magicians trying to express ideas very often. So - I am guessing he is referring to some occasions where he has seen magicians attempt it, and then get the balance between form and content all wrong?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » February 25th, 2021, 3:13 am

I think the balance issue is an entirely different one than he is trying to express.

The key is the world revel.

What does it mean and how does that apply to Many magicians who present “ magic as art“?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jack Shalom » February 25th, 2021, 9:30 am

Implicit versus explicit. Even in matters of deception, the former is more powerful and convincing.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » February 25th, 2021, 1:14 pm

The key word in Derren’s quote is revel.

We seem to be overlooking what it means.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 25th, 2021, 1:49 pm

Image

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 1st, 2021, 10:40 pm

I really enjoyed the Suzanne K. Langer book. Thanks again Brad!

I read the book in a couple of days and took notes along the way.

A couple of days later - I read over the notes.

And a couple of days later - I feel I have digested the ideas enough to offer my thoughts.

The main things I took away from the book are this:

1) Art is used to reveal meaning. But the art should never overlap with the message you want to communicate. I haven't expressed that very well. But it is the difference between real art and "hokey" art. It really gets to the issue I have with magicians doing magic about love whilst performing to a pop song about love. It is too "on the nose" and creates the feeing of fake-art rather than real art.

We have to use art to express the logical relationship in the idea that we want to communicate. So rather than thinking in terms of metaphors - we should think in terms of logical relationships. You are portraying a logical relationship that the audience will then see paralleled in the idea you want to express.

Not so much metaphors as logical metaphors, I guess. This was the key insight that I needed. It answered a question that I was struggling with.

2) Philosophy is thousands of years old, but the only real progress it makes is in revealing new questions for people to ask. It seems to get closer to the "truth" over time. But ultimately, that destination always seems to be just over the horizon. As such - the real beauty of philosophy is that it provides us with new paradigms to explore. And then every few hundred years - there is another paradigm shift that throws up a host of new questions.

The real goal of art is to try and find suprising ways to raise new questions in the mind of the audience. My favourite piece of conceptual art is by Damien Hirst. I wrote about it over here (a non-magic blog that Andy asked me to write):

https://dannysmindblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/conceptual-art-or-performance-art/

It is a great example of arranging ordinary objects in such a way that the viewer is forced to ask the same deep questions that the artist wants to inspire.

Suzanne K. Langer feels the world is lacking "charged symbols". This is because we have entered the era of modern technology. One day - a computer will be seen as a romantic piece of traditional technology (like a ship) - and it will provide symbolic meaning to us. But at the moment - we are alienated from many of the objects that once offered our souls symbolic meaning. This is because we are no longer in touch with the traditional ways of living that had once been part of a way of living that had largely remained unchanged for many generations.

This is a void that art can fill.

So - when we try and create art - we have to tap into a subconcious hunger for symbolic meaning that the modern world is starving us of.

The question for us is this. How can we use magic to create "charged symbols"?

I appreciated this insight since it cast new light on an idea of Teller's that I recently wrote about:

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/blog/meaning_is_the_best_misdirection

It also helps me to appreciate more deeply what Derek Delguadio achieved in his recent TV special.

The book is a fabulous piece of philosophy. It is also great to see somebody build on Wittgenstein's earlier work and pull out so many hidden insights from that fascinating period of philosophy. I have always been obsessed with the deep ideas Wittgenstein was exploring during that period (as opposed to his later work - which went on to have more influence over the rest of 20th century philosophy).

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 1st, 2021, 10:46 pm

Quick question - I had an idea (inspired by reading the book) for a Rube Goldberg machine. At the end - a butterfly would be released into the world.

This plays into the idea of chaos theory and the butterfly effect. If you think about it - the butterfly effect is like a giant Rube Goldberg machine that secretly controls our lives.

I think it is a good idea. But I am just wondering if the use of the butterfly as the key image at the end is too "on the nose"?

I would be curious to see what others think?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Tom Moore » March 2nd, 2021, 6:33 am

I think your biggest problem will be getting hold of butterflies and making them fly off on command without utilising harmful methods. If you're putting an animal (any animal) into a magic effect you need a compelling reason why and to be prepared to respond to regular critiques from audiences that cruelty must be involved somehow.
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 2nd, 2021, 1:21 pm

Accounting for the magic is not so much a problem as containing its consequences.
As a story through...a prediction written in moth holes might be funny. ;)

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jack Shalom » March 2nd, 2021, 3:18 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:Quick question - I had an idea (inspired by reading the book) for a Rube Goldberg machine. At the end - a butterfly would be released into the world.

This plays into the idea of chaos theory and the butterfly effect. If you think about it - the butterfly effect is like a giant Rube Goldberg machine that secretly controls our lives.

I think it is a good idea. But I am just wondering if the use of the butterfly as the key image at the end is too "on the nose"?

I would be curious to see what others think?


I think it can be a lovely image in the right context.

I think I remember someone coming out with that w/o a live butterfly. Some modification of the Snow effect, maybe, and artfully cut paper?

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby PressureFan » March 2nd, 2021, 4:00 pm

Flutter Fetti, Butterflies Tissue -Multicolor
I purchased 3 pounds of cast-off/reject butterfly confetti. I had no idea what a huge amount that was!

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 2nd, 2021, 6:51 pm

Here is the master himself, Ricky Jay, doing a trick with a moth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv7gNuwl7E8

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Tom Moore » March 3rd, 2021, 9:53 am

It's an interesting effect but it's well documented how long it took to make it work and how getting that one single performance ultimately required breeding and killing 30-40 moths. Admittedly they are quite low down on the cuddly animal that needs protecting scale but someone is going to find that fact out and assume you're doing the same; have you got an answer that would quash that question?
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 3rd, 2021, 9:58 am

I have always been fascinated by those coin pushers you get in amusement arcades and fairgrounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST-FnoD1QfE

It is like an economic form of pepetual motion - the way it generates regular profit. The sides of the machines actually have gaps where some of the coins get lost - and that is what guarantees the profit.

Well - I want to combine those machines with aspects of process art and interactive art.

So - I thought it would be nice if people wrote down a secret on a piece of paper and crumpled it into a ball. They then drop it into one of those machines (that would contains hundreds of other crumpled balls - each with a stranger's secret on it). And then you would anonymously use your secret to "win" a stranger's secret.

Of course - the machines would have to be redesigned to make this happen since a paper ball is not a coin.

Sorry - for the non magic post. But I just wanted to share this since my brain has been fundamentally changed by Suzanne K. Langer's book. I feel I have a much better conception of conceptual art now.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 3rd, 2021, 9:59 am

Tom Moore wrote:It's an interesting effect but it's well documented how long it took to make it work and how getting that one single performance ultimately required breeding and killing 30-40 moths. Admittedly they are quite low down on the cuddly animal that needs protecting scale but someone is going to find that fact out and assume you're doing the same; have you got an answer that would quash that question?

I don't think it would be hard to design a Rube Goldberg machine that ended with a live butterfly been released into the world. I am more focused on magic ideas. As such - that will be my main priority for now.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby David Kaplan » March 3rd, 2021, 11:17 am

We briefly thought about a special moment for our wedding:

All butterfly wedding packages include individual Origami folded release envelopes with a short imprint and your choice of envelope color. The individual release envelopes can be handed out to your guest so they can each release a butterfly.


But we decided it would be a real bummer if guests opened their envelopes to find butterfly corpses. And quite a fizzer as the climax of a magic trick!

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 3rd, 2021, 4:18 pm

More stories about butterflies: http://www.scpwiki.com/scp-5096 ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 4th, 2021, 11:11 pm

Here is an excellent conversation with Brian Eno. The focus of the conversation is Brian Eno explaining what he feels art is. He says he has spent 50 years thinking about the question, and that very little has really been written on the topic.

His answer is 5 overlapping concepts. What I found interesting is that his answer (which takes 100 minutes to fully cover) builds on the work of Suzanne K. Langer.

It is a fun watch. Even though he is a genius - he doesn't take himself seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc1_QUVsDcM

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 5th, 2021, 6:29 am

I think the concept of infinity lies at the root of all art.

Every conceptual space - has an infinite number of possibilities.

Whether it be art made out of matchsticks, sandcastles, card tricks or pop music.

And infinity has the strange property that there simply has to be at least one interesting idea (or more likely - an infinity of them) lurking somewhere in that conceptual space. Of course they are hidden like needles in giant haystacks.

So - the artist is an expert who devotes their life to digging up those interesting ideas. Ideas that already exist in the timeless and spaceless realm of infinity that maps onto that area of art.

It is like a mathematician discovering new prime numbers (there are an infinite number of them - but they get more and more spread out as you search for them). Stephen King has the same attitude as well. He feels all his story ideas already exist - and he just has to uncover them.

The comic book wrtier, Alan Moore, has explored similar ideas as well.

This is why audiences are happy to go along with you - as long as you stick to your "area" of expertise. You can explore controversial ideas in your art - but only if those ideas flow organically from the art.

If they feel like they are bolted on - then people feel you have turned your canvas into a soapboax. And that jars with the audience. I have a lot of interesting and controversial ideas. But the only ones I feel comfortable sharing are the ones that are related in some way to my area of art (magic).

Infinity is a truly bizarre concept. Apparently there are an infinite number of different types of infinity.

I guess my ideas above are inspired by the following Jorge Luis Borges short story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Library_of_Babel

Daniel Dennett has a great chapter in one of his books that explores a similar concept, but in relation to genes. He calls it The Library of Mendel.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Denis Behr » March 5th, 2021, 7:51 am

For what it's worth, here's one writers peculiar opinion, who ironically came close to publishing an infinite number of tricks:

Karl Fulves wrote:It has yet to be demonstrated if there are an infinite number of possible card tricks. One would suspect not since tricks are described in words and there are a large but finite number of ways words can be put together (A trick of infinite length is another matter. One such effect, suitable titled "Infinitely Ambitious," appeared in The Pallbearers Review, pg. 1041).

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Lyons » March 5th, 2021, 10:18 am

Joe Mckay wrote:I think the concept of infinity lies at the root of all art.


True, infinite choices empower art but discernment creates it.

One could wait forever for a monkey locked in a room with a typewriter to produce Shakespeare.

Years ago, I had a friend who created a cool illusion. It was a Sefalaljia like effect with a unique method sure to fool magicians and laymen alike. He planned to showcase it in a local magic contest and asked for my assistance with some finishing touches and patter since writing wasn’t his strong point. Before I could show him what I had come up with he said he had changed his mind – he would do a silent act set to music instead. I begged him to reconsider as the transformations in the cabinet, while incredible, needed a verbal spotlight. He insisted on music and, because he was a composer, I felt the decision had more to do with ego than artistic choice.

When the evening came, the act was met with indifference - the audience couldn’t follow what was taking place. Our local version of Johnny Thompson came up afterwards and told him he was able to follow the magic and it was amazing.

He then said if only my friend had used patter he would have had a first place winner…

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 5th, 2021, 10:47 am

That is a great story!

The infinity concept is useful for me since I feel the value in art lies in suprising and creative ideas. I feel the job of an artist is to discover interesting new ideas.

I know other people feel art is about communicating with the audience. That is fine. But my vision for art is closet to mathematics or science. It is about discovering interesting new ideas. I like this approach since it feels like there is a semi-objective way of measuring how good your art is. As opposed to having it be purely subjective. If I think of art as uncovering interesting new ideas - then it keeps me disciplined and stops me from settling for second best.

There is an infinitie number of astonishing and wonderful ideas out there waiting to be discovered. That is exciting! However - those ideas are buried inside an even bigger infinity of bad ideas!

It is now a treasure hunt as you try and figure out how to uncover them. That feels much more fun to me than trying to work out what I want to communicate.

Maybe it is an aspie thing - but I don't really want to communicate anything. I just don't care. And even if I did - I would just put it into words.

My vision for an artist is somebody who has devoted their life to uncovering treasure in the conceptual universe of their choice. If I cannot imagine myself being delighted at discovering the same idea that the artist is sharing with me - then it is bad art.

I am not saying this is how it has to be for anybody else. But for me - this is definitely my vision for good art. I want interesting, novel, ingenious and surprising ideas.

It is simple.

And hard.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Lyons » March 5th, 2021, 11:27 am

Joe Mckay wrote: But my vision for art is closer to mathematics or science. It is about discovering interesting new ideas. I like this approach since it feels like there is a semi-objective way of measuring how good your art is. As opposed to having it be purely subjective. If I think of art as uncovering interesting new ideas - then it keeps me disciplined and stops me from settling for second best.

That reminds me of the protagonist in Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, a philosophical bestseller initially rejected by over 120 publishers. Have you read it? I think you would find his search for quality interesting.

That is, if you don't go mad like he did. ;)

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 5th, 2021, 12:23 pm

That was the first novel I ever read.

I never read books as a kid - and then I picked that one up as a teen. Since it seemed "important".

I actually liked it because it feels closer to non-fiction than fiction. I only ever read non-fiction these days.

I guess the book can be summed up with the phrase - life is about the journey not the destination. I think if something is worth doing then it is worth doing for its own sake, more than it is worth doing for any other reason. That is another lesson that is strongly echoed in that book.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Bill Mullins » March 5th, 2021, 3:24 pm

Joe Lyons wrote:One could wait forever for a monkey locked in a room with a typewriter to produce Shakespeare.


Even if the monkey produces Shakespeare, no one would want to read it because when you lock a monkey in a room it will sh*t all over everything.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » March 5th, 2021, 5:11 pm

I have found that most monkeys (at least the ones I have known) are far better Shakespearian actors than writers. Especially in the more dramatic and passionate roles - they go absolutely bananas!

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 5th, 2021, 7:40 pm

Joe, thanks for referencing the lines at the end of Derren Brown's book.
Along the way he mentioned Reinhardt... among others. So much to explore in the craft. :)

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 6th, 2021, 2:54 am

You are right - I have ended up back where Derren started! lol

Here is an idea from Penn Jillette that I have found very helpful as well:

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/blog/stage-invasion

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 7th, 2021, 2:25 am

One mantra I have is this:

There is no such thing as a bad idea - only better ideas.

If an idea makes me uncomfortable - then I will only get rid of it, if I have a better one to replace it with. If I cannot do that - then it means I am censoring myself at the expense of the ideas. Replacing one idea with a less creative/potent one. That is a trap to avoid. Since it will lead to blander ideas which is the exact opposite goal of art.

As such - when somebody criticises an idea for being offensive - I feel the only real criticism is if they can offer up a better idea to replace it with.

The goal of an artist is to share surprising and novel ideas. I don't think there is any relationship between the artist and those ideas. They are simply interesting ideas he has discovered, that he feels are the ones most worth sharing through his art.

It is like getting angry at an archaeologist for digging up a bracelet that is 3000 years old - because there is an engraving on the bracelet that offends you.

The artist is there to serve the ideas. The ideas are not there to serve the artist.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 7th, 2021, 4:27 am

Sorry for all these rambles. I just needed to go down this rabbithole because most traditional advice when it comes to scripting makes no sense to me.

I think it is because I am an aspie.

Apparently I am quite exhausting to be around, since I only ever discuss ideas. I won't open my mouth unless I am about to explore an idea I find interesting.

As such - when I think about issues like persona, character and scripting - I hit a mental brick wall. I have nothing to say. Since the only time I say anything is when I am exploring ideas. When I look inside myself there is no there there. There is nothing but ideas.

So - if I make my magic idea-driven, it frees me up mentally to be myself and relax when performing. As long as I have the end goal of communicating an idea I find interesting - then everything else falls into place. In acting terms - I have found my "motivation".

I can only imagine I had to go down this rabbithole and ditch most traditional magic advice because my brain is literally wired differently to most other magicians (and writers of magic).

I don't take myself seriously. So I don't think people feel alienated when I explore ideas since I am not doing it from a place of trying to show off or be pretentious. I am like an excited 8 year old when I talk.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 7th, 2021, 6:01 am

One other thing - my favourite quote in magic is this one:

If you cannot hide it, paint it red.

Whenever I am stuck - I find the best way forward is to highlight the problem and turn the bug into a feature.

This is one of the keys to creativity.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Tom Moore » March 7th, 2021, 6:02 am

since I only ever discuss ideas


....with respect your posts on here aren't discussions; they're mostly monologues.
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Bob Coyne » March 7th, 2021, 10:03 am

Joe Mckay wrote:Sorry for all these rambles. I just needed to go down this rabbithole because most traditional advice when it comes to scripting makes no sense to me.
[....]
As such - when I think about issues like persona, character and scripting - I hit a mental brick wall. I have nothing to say. Since the only time I say anything is when I am exploring ideas. When I look inside myself there is no there there. There is nothing but ideas.

So - if I make my magic idea-driven, it frees me up mentally to be myself and relax when performing. As long as I have the end goal of communicating an idea I find interesting - then everything else falls into place. In acting terms - I have found my "motivation".

I can only imagine I had to go down this rabbithole and ditch most traditional magic advice because my brain is literally wired differently to most other magicians (and writers of magic).

So it sounds like you found the key to what fits your personality. No reason to be like everyone else or follow traditional advice when it doesn't work for you.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » March 8th, 2021, 8:56 am

This is the best analysis of the question, "What is the pupose of Art?" I have seen.

It is by Brian Eno. But unlike the other videos - this one is less than 28 mins long. And it also the clearest presentation I have seen of his brilliant analysis. He makes it very clear here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvHY5BFgniw

Maybe it is an aspie thing - but before I try and create magic and work out a performing style - I prefer to go back to the fundamentals and analyze the whole point of art from the ground up.

Once that question is answered - the decision on how to approach the performance of Magic becomes a lot clearer.

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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 20th, 2021, 4:26 pm

I often wonder why so maybe people give the advice of "Show don't tell" when it comes to art?

It feels to me that this idea is what the Suzanne K. Langer book is ultimately about.

I discussed this with my Dad and he has helped clarify the issue in my mind. I was telling him about my favourite joke from The Simpsons movie. An asteroid is about to hit the earth - and everyone in a bar and a church run out to look at the asteroid.

After a second or two - everyone from the church runs into the bar.

And at the same time - everyone from the bar runs into the church.

I then asked him why a joke has more impact when expressed visually in this way? Expressing ideas visually is something I have been thinking a lot about. In fact Andy (The Jerx) will be publishing an idea soon that I sent him that was inspired by the Suzanne K. Langer book since it was my attempt to express an idea visually. By using the logical relationship of objects (in this case - showing something to be empty in a visually novel way).

This is my Dad's theory: When you describe an idea - the person has to mentally visualise the idea. In terms of pixels that is something like 120 per inch. Or whatever the resolution of your mind's eye is.

At best.

But when you express an idea visually - you can register the idea instantly.

With no effort.

In 4K 3D surround sound.

So the impact of the idea registers with much more impact than simply expressing the idea verbally.

I know this might seem obvious. But I struggle to understand an idea unless I can sum it up in a couple of sentences. I am a follower of Richard Feyman's advice that you don't understand something unless you can easily explain it to an intelligent 12-year old kid.

Indeed - it makes me wonder if Langer's book could simply be summed up with this one simple sentence?

This idea seems to be the ultimate goal of a lot of art. It is something I see a lot in the work of Penn & Teller as well.

I have been thinking about this issue some more since watching the latest Bo Burnham comedy special on Netflix. He has an excellent knack for expressing ideas visually. He seems to have the discipline to say to himself that an idea is not complete until it can expressed visually.

I would recommend his comedy to all magicians since he is the only comedian who designs his jokes like tricks that manipulate and misdirect the audience. It is great fun and very clever.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 20th, 2021, 5:50 pm

You are on the right track. What you are missing is that the function of art isn’t to communicate but to convey. If something can be described to a 12 year old, it should be. Art is for conveying concepts that can’t be described to anyone. If we could put it into words, we would. We can’t - so we use art

Art is about conveying feelingful responses

It isn’t about ‘communication.

Both can involve ‘ideas’.

Joe Mckay
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Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 20th, 2021, 7:30 pm

That makes sense. Thanks for that. It really helps me.

Cheers!

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Opinions on Derren Brown quote?

Postby Joe Mckay » June 20th, 2021, 7:37 pm

So, it is about expressing ideas that cannot be put into words.

Sorry - I mean "feelingful responses". So I guess that is a feeling that cannot quite be expressed in words or expressed as an idea. Almost something that is buried in the subconscious.

This is something I think a lot about. One of my favourite philosophers is Wittgenstein, and he was obsessed with the limits of language. A story he used to tell was of a young soldier who comes across a tree. The soldier pockets some seeds from the tree.

He then returns home and plants the seeds.

50 years later the soldier is now an old man sitting under the tree that he planted 50 years earlier.

Wittgenstein felt that this image captured an important truth about time, life and reality that could never be put into words. All he could do was point to it and let you see it for yourself.

Wittgenstein was trying to work out the limits of language as it applies to philosophy and metaphysics. Suzzane K. Langer then makes a similar argument in her book in relation to art.

Thanks again Brad for helping me to understand all this! I guess my appreciation of Wittgenstein's work has allowed me to see clearly what you and Suzzane K. Langer are getting at.

Something that Penn & Teller comment on a lot is that their work communicates the idea of partnership. Partnership among people who are very different. Both visually and personality wise. They feel that it is rare to see ideas in relation to partnership expressed in the modern world, and it is one of the less obvious reasons as to why their work is so impactful.
Last edited by Joe Mckay on June 20th, 2021, 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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