Fool US

[Tom Moore]

Well if magician’s have a problem with the French drop exposure then you’re gonna really hate their other show “try this at home” ....

And no Alfred I don’t think my views are superior and I’m mildly offended you decided to put such words in my mouth. My original post highlites the well known existing phenomena that a certain subset of magicians value the keeping of “secrets” above all other considerations within the art of magic and the magic industry - my post was simply to point out how precisely this thread validated what had previously been just an academic theory.

The fact that magicians pounced on the exposure of a slight that no-one uses blatantly in their professional performance yet make little to no proclamations on the many interesting and innovative elements and performances in the show is something that fascinated me.

Personally I really didn’t like that routine simply because it just didn’t work. I understand that they weren’t happy with it either - in the live show it was a genuine touching and theatrical moment but that just didn’t translate to the screen as broadcast.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Sorry Tom, I apologize.

[Steve Mills]

I find it very interesting that dozens of performers presenting brilliant, original, creative, entertaining COMMERCIAL performances produced a dozen or so comments on this board, but the idea that P&T might have vaguely exposed the 101 of magic secrets has produced dozens of outraged posts very indicative of the misplaced view most magicians have about the art and industry as a whole.

"interesting", but not surprising, I trust.

[Bill Duncan]

Magicians who engage in exposure don't "push" the boundaries of our art; it destroys them.

So for the English language that would mean magic was officially destroyed when?
1583?
1635?

Exposure has always existed, yet magic endures. But instead of creating content about how to make magic better we spend our time on this...

[MagicbyAlfred]

Bill Duncan Wrote: "Exposure has always existed, yet magic endures."

Yes, and war has always existed, yet the world endures.

[Bill Duncan]

I'm not sure if you're making my point, or yours.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I'm not sure if you're making my point, or yours.

It's a secret, and I would prefer not to reveal it....

[Chris Randal2]

I almost peed my pants watching this. What a great bit. I really enjoyed this from Eric Dittleman I hope he has this in notes or somewhere I can purchase it. Super funny

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmseOWajylE

[Michael Rubinstein]

This thread kinda went two ways. With regards to the exposure of the French Drop, everyone's grandfather shows this to their grandkids, every actor on TV does this badly when they need to do a vanish, so I don't think it hurt anyone. Even if someone never saw that, if a coin is made to vanish the spectator will assume it is in the other hand unless you know how to negate that by your followup action.
As for being embarrassed to not fool Penn and Teller, I was on season 5, and presented my Twilight Zone Wild Coin routine. Going in I was told by both the producers and Mike Close that my goal wasn't to fool them, it was to put on a good show. The producers had selected my routine, rejecting the ones I sent that I thought had a better chance of fooling them, because they cared more about the story. So going in I knew that although they may not have known every move, they would understand the gist of the routine. All they had to say was that it was sleight of hand and they "win". As such I changed the ending, hoping that at least the technique I used would fool them, and I asked them about it in a way that I had hoped would not be confrontational ( I had discussed this with Mike Close prior to the performance). But they got it. Their answer actually made me smile. Before the spot they waved to me when I came put on stage, and after the spot they met me in the hallway and complimented my act. Everyone treated me very well, and I had a blast filming the intro with the guys who put it together. I don't think any performer is upset when they are busted, because they understand what the real purpose of the show is for. Everyone on the show gets to use it in their pubblicity. Sure, it's great to say you fooled them, but pretty great just to be on the show. Thanks again to all the people who work so hard to put that show together!

[Peter Ross]

Mr. Rubinstein, I'm genuinely happy you didn't feel embarrassed when having to admit you didn't fool Penn and Teller on a TV show called Fool Us. I've heard other magicians on the show describe the similar positive experience that you had.

But that doesn't change the fact that I felt embarrassed for you as a viewer. That moment always seems awkward, and somehow just...wrong. As I said, my young son judges the quality of magicians on the program by who fools P&T and who doesn't, because, despite the best efforts of the producers, hosts, and performers to present Fool Us first and foremost as a showcase for great magic, my son is logically reacting to the basic premise and purpose of the game show (as if the title left any doubt), for that's what it is.

Obviously, seven successful seasons means that small awkward moment has not dampened viewer enthusiasm enough to stop watching it (I still tune in excitedly), but I don't believe for a moment that viewers would have made the show the success that it is if it were simply a magic variety show hosted by P&T. No, it's the basic concept that's the hook, no matter how much everyone involved wants to downplay it.

Congratulations on your entertaining and successful appearance.

[Tim Furneaux]

I have an old popular magazine with the back cover exposing the one-ahead technique, advertising Camel cigarettes. It had a broad circulation in it's day. It didn't ruin the secret. Done right, it's still a real fooler. Despite having been exposed over & over again.

[Brad Henderson]

Well, that may have more to do with the fact that not a lot of people who were smoking cigarettes in 1933 are around to see that trick performed today.

[erdnasephile]

Dr. Rubinstein: thanks for sharing--I enjoyed reading your perspective. What a great experience and opportunity! Your performance on the show looked really smooth. May I ask: was it nerve wracking to perform before millions of people? If so, did you do anything special to deal with the nerves?

[Bill Duncan]

But that doesn't change the fact that I felt embarrassed for you as a viewer. That moment always seems awkward, and somehow just...wrong. As I said, my young son judges the quality of magicians on the program by who fools P&T and who doesn't, because, despite the best efforts of the producers, hosts, and performers to present Fool Us first and foremost as a showcase for great magic, my son is logically reacting to the basic premise and purpose of the game show (as if the title left any doubt), for that's what it is.

I wonder how much of your son's reaction is due to your discomfort with the premise? I have an adult co-worker who with his girlfriend are ardent fans. They don't seem to care about who fools P&T anywhere near as much as folks here see to.

[Michael Rubinstein]

Erdnasephile, to be honest, you don't think about the people watching the show. The cameras are out of the way and really you just play to Penn and Teller, and they are watching you on an i pad. What removed any nervousness, however, was going the day before, sitting in the audience, and watching an actual taping session. I saw Allison screw up her lines, and one of the magicians had his prop explode at the beginning of his routine. In both cases, they just did it over. So, I figured, if I screw something up, it can just be done over. That alleviates a lot of pressure! Also, knowing the patter so well that it can be done in your sleep is important! Glad you enjoyed the act!

[erdnasephile]

That's really interesting--thanks, Dr. Rubinstein!

[Chris Randal2]

It's the French Drop--by our standards a sleight best not used by anyone.

I use the retention vanish and when a layman friend
asks me to teach them a trick. I teach the French drop. Shin Lim is teaching nail writers and ruff and smooth cards on his videos and I don’t hear complaints about that. I love Shins work and his success but I felt it was wrong to randomly teach methods for clicks on YouTube. I agree with Mr Kaufman that French drop is so basic that it’s ok to teach. We need to remember that John Thompson was very against exposing magic so I think his main
students Penn and Teller would know what to expose and what not to. Just my two cents that I had to save up for.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. However, no one is ever going to convince me that exposure is OK, no matter what kind of justification they offer. The French drop is a fantastic sleight, used by many professionals and excellent amateurs, and the thumb tip, which P & T also exposed on National TV, was one of the most important and useful pieces of apparatus ever. I doubt Johhny Thompson would approve of any exposure, let alone the two mentioned above.

[erdnasephile]

Alfred, how do you feel about gambling expose routines?

[MagicbyAlfred]

Alfred, how do you feel about gambling expose routines?

Erdnasephile, in general, I do not consider them magic, although I admire the skill of some of the exponents of such routines. I do, however, really like and perform some card routines with a gambling theme. Magician Versus Gambler is, IMHO, one of the greatest pieces of close-up magic, period - cards or otherwise. It's hard to beat that moment when, for example, the magician has cut to three Aces, then "misses" by cutting to a Queen, and then, what the spectator believes were three Aces, magically transform into Queens. Same goes for 3 Card Monte, which I perform as a story. Very magical and, of course, I never explain the move (the "hype") And especially mind-blowing for laymen is the bent corner finish. I also like the 10 Card Poker, but I long ago switched the orientation/presentation so that my "partner" i.e., the spectator (not me), wins every time. But none of the foregoing are gambling expose routines, wherein valuable moves such as the second deal, bottom deal and/or palming are exposed. Again, I disapprove of any form of exposure.

[erdnasephile]

To continue the thought: do you feel Richard Turner's demonstrations constitute exposure?

In a similar vein, where does a routine like "The Vegas Shuffle" (Ortiz) fall on the scale of exposure when the theme of the trick are various "true" false shuffles before ending with an impossible shuffle?

[Dave Le Fevre]

when a layman friend asks me to teach them a trick. I teach the French drop

The French Drop was the very first bit of magic that I learned, more than sixty years ago. A schoolfriend showed me how to do it, and while he probably taught it badly and while I no doubt performed it badly, fellow pupils were wowed by it.

It became the thing that I’d teach when someone said that they wanted to learn a magic trick. Over the decades not only did my French Drop improve, but my teaching of it became really quite good.

And yet I’d find that it was a waste of my time. I’d spend ten minutes or more going through loads of details, including how to practice it, and the would-be magician would say ”Wow, I’m really going to practise this!” … and then they wouldn’t.

There were exceptions. A work colleague practised a lot and really nailed it. And about 25 years ago I taught it to a class of ten-year-olds at my son’s school (as parts of an arts & crafts week, or something). A year later a boy saw me walking along the street, said ”You’re Richard Le Fevre’s father, and you taught us this”, and performed a passable French Drop. That was really heart-warming.

But almost everybody would sit enthralled through my “lesson”, and then not practise it. So about 15 years ago I decided that the next person who asked to learn it would be a guinea pig. Two people asked to learn it. I taught them. They were full of enthusiasm, and yes they were really going to practise it. A month or two later I bumped into one of them. ”How’s it been going with French Drop?” I enquired. He looked embarrassed, and mumbled something about not practising it and having completely forgotten it.

So I stopped teaching it. I later thought that should anybody wish to learn it, I’d say give me £10, I’ll teach it to you, and when I next see you then if you can perform it to a rudimentary standard then I’ll give you your money back. But if you’ve simply wasted my time, then I’ll give it to charity. To be honest, I’d rather they learned it and I returned their money. But people seem to need an incentive. It’s sad – it’s so easy to perform it badly, it’s equally easy to perform it well, it’s versatile (in that so many other sleights can only be done with something the size and shape of a coin), they’re so very keen to learn it, and it’s so easy to practise – but then their enthusiasm stops dead. Dunno why. It’s not my enthusiasm, it’s their enthusiasm, so I don’t know why it suddenly stops dead. Oh well, their loss.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Erdnasephile Wrote: To continue the thought: do you feel Richard Turner's demonstrations constitute exposure?

E, it depends on the "demonstration." The line of demarcation for me lies in the distinction between (a) exhibiting astonishing feats with a deck of cards in the context of a gambling game theme (e.g. poker, blackjack, or 3 Card Monte), without the spectator having a clue how it's done; versus (b) showing off amazing skill with a deck of cards and revealing/explaining the move(s) used to accomplish the feat. Here is Richard doing (a) and it's phenomenal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8veYTNjXSk

I am very much OK with (a), and do not approve of (b). I don't want laymen knowing about second deals or bottom deals, or magicians discussing palming with laymen (yes, even "invisible" palms). These are tremendously valuable weapons in the magician's arsenal to create magical effects. But, this is just my own personal feeling; others may and do look at it differently, even though I wish they did not.

[Chris Randal2]

when a layman friend asks me to teach them a trick. I teach the French drop

The French Drop was the very first bit of magic that I learned, more than sixty years ago. A schoolfriend showed me how to do it, and while he probably taught it badly and while I no doubt performed it badly, fellow pupils were wowed by it.

It became the thing that I’d teach when someone said that they wanted to learn a magic trick. Over the decades not only did my French Drop improve, but my teaching of it became really quite good.

And yet I’d find that it was a waste of my time. I’d spend ten minutes or more going through loads of details, including how to practice it, and the would-be magician would say ”Wow, I’m really going to practise this!” … and then they wouldn’t.

There were exceptions. A work colleague practised a lot and really nailed it. And about 25 years ago I taught it to a class of ten-year-olds at my son’s school (as parts of an arts & crafts week, or something). A year later a boy saw me walking along the street, said ”You’re Richard Le Fevre’s father, and you taught us this”, and performed a passable French Drop. That was really heart-warming.

But almost everybody would sit enthralled through my “lesson”, and then not practise it. So about 15 years ago I decided that the next person who asked to learn it would be a guinea pig. Two people asked to learn it. I taught them. They were full of enthusiasm, and yes they were really going to practise it. A month or two later I bumped into one of them. ”How’s it been going with French Drop?” I enquired. He looked embarrassed, and mumbled something about not practising it and having completely forgotten it.

So I stopped teaching it. I later thought that should anybody wish to learn it, I’d say give me £10, I’ll teach it to you, and when I next see you then if you can perform it to a rudimentary standard then I’ll give you your money back. But if you’ve simply wasted my time, then I’ll give it to charity. To be honest, I’d rather they learned it and I returned their money. But people seem to need an incentive. It’s sad – it’s so easy to perform it badly, it’s equally easy to perform it well, it’s versatile (in that so many other sleights can only be done with something the size and shape of a coin), they’re so very keen to learn it, and it’s so easy to practise – but then their enthusiasm stops dead. Dunno why. It’s not my enthusiasm, it’s their enthusiasm, so I don’t know why it suddenly stops dead. Oh well, their loss.

Wow this is a great idea I got mad over the same idea when I would work in a restaurant the bartenders would always beg me to teach them a trick to do behind the bar. Later I would ask him to show me the French drop and they could barely remember it. I always felt I wasted my time teaching and actually caring this is a great solution with the $10. I started saying teach me how To make a drink so I can bartend and I will teach you a trick for each drink. I would also say maybe I should stick to magic and you should stick to bartending they were both good at what we’re good at

[Dave Le Fevre]

I always felt I wasted my time teaching and actually caring this is a great solution with the $10

I'm reassured to learn that I'm not alone in finding that all the enthusiastic would-be students give up so promptly.

I should stress that I haven't tried the £10 fee idea. It's merely what I would do if the situation arose.

[Tom Stone]

I later thought that should anybody wish to learn it, I’d say give me £10, I’ll teach it to you, and when I next see you then if you can perform it to a rudimentary standard then I’ll give you your money back. But if you’ve simply wasted my time, then I’ll give it to charity. To be honest, I’d rather they learned it and I returned their money. But people seem to need an incentive.

I've found that it is simpler, when asked to teach someone a trick, to say "If you want to learn, call me tomorrow, and we'll set up a time." rather than to give a lesson on the spot. Most people never call, and the few who does either become magicians themselves, or become avid fans of magic and buy tickets to all magic shows they can find.

[erdnasephile]

Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. However, no one is ever going to convince me that exposure is OK, no matter what kind of justification they offer. The French drop is a fantastic sleight, used by many professionals and excellent amateurs, and the thumb tip, which P & T also exposed on National TV, was one of the most important and useful pieces of apparatus ever. I doubt Johhny Thompson would approve of any exposure, let alone the two mentioned above.

Please see the cover of Genii, May 1995.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. However, no one is ever going to convince me that exposure is OK, no matter what kind of justification they offer. The French drop is a fantastic sleight, used by many professionals and excellent amateurs, and the thumb tip, which P & T also exposed on National TV, was one of the most important and useful pieces of apparatus ever. I doubt Johhny Thompson would approve of any exposure, let alone the two mentioned above.

Please see the cover of Genii, May 1995.

I have seen it, and all I could do (then and now) is shrug my shoulders and think about what Shakespeare said, through Puck, about "these mortals" in a Midsummer Night's Dream. I can't do anything about those who disrespect the art of magic and are hell-bent on exposing its secrets -- except voice my opinion, of course. My Uncle Alfred was a very fine and charismatic amateur magician (one of several in my family growing up). I idolized him. When I announced to him, at age 6, that I was going to become a magician just like him, he beamed, and the very first thing he did was tell me about the Magician's Code, and that I would have to abide by it, no matter what: "Never repeat a trick for the same person or audience, and never reveal the secret." I took it to heart. Still do...

[MagicbyAlfred]

Shin Lim is teaching nail writers and ruff and smooth cards on his videos and I don’t hear complaints about that.

because of the people complain is older and not watching shin lim videos. they stay with there playing card vests and ties and "hold off your hand, no the clean one" stuff.

Sir, you have a very fanciful, distorted, and inaccurate view of older magicians. They are generally highly experienced, study the literature, don't purchase the latest fad trick or download and don't watch so-called "tutorials" on YouTube, because that is a sure way to go downhill fast. But perhaps you could post a video of your work so we can see how good a real magician is.

[Leo Garet]

Shin Lim is teaching nail writers and ruff and smooth cards on his videos and I don’t hear complaints about that.

because of the people complain is older and not watching shin lim videos. they stay with there playing card vests and ties and "hold off your hand, no the clean one" stuff.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. I feel thoroughly ashamed to be an FQAB.

For what it's worth people with a genuine interest in Magic, and perhaps even some performing ability, do not lose either simply as a consequence of growing older. Nor do they lose the right to have a point of view.

Illness and whatnot excepted, of course. Bad health is no respecter of person.

FQAB Fully Qualified Ancient Briton.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Longtimelurker wrote: "Not believing I do [have a fanciful, distorted, and inaccurate view of older magicians]"

Yes, i know that you do not believe that you do. But your belief is incorrect.

"They are tending for belief silly old secrets are importants. Guaring a empty safe etc."
There is nothing "silly" about secrets - only about your comment. There is no magic without the secret, but I guess you don't comprehend that. Sad.

"I willingly bet at your $100 no one complainings about French drops lesson is under 50 years."
I'll bet you a $100,000 that's not true. I personally know several working professionals in their 30's and 40's who don't approve. You see, secrets are important to their livelihood. But then I'm sure you get hired all the time for big bucks to do tricks and then reveal them - that is assuming you ever fool anyone to begin with.

"Good luck with your sponge rabbits."
Thank you. I love them and so do the people I perform for. Do you have a routine for which people have tipped you $100 or $200? I'm betting no. Let's go double or nothing on that one and make it $200,000. Michael Ammar called the sponge rabbits "possibly the greatest close up trick of all time." But I doubt you've even heard of him or his teacher, Dai Vernon. One is old and the other has passed on, and so they wouldn't count in your eyes. But 'm sure that whatever you do is better and far more entertaining than my sponge rabbits, anyway.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Mr. Lurker: The safe containing magic secrets is like any safe. If it gets looted by people taking the money out (or, in this case, exposing the secrets), yes, eventually it will become empty. Thanks to people using the Internet for rampant exposure (primarily young kids who can't perform Magic to save their lives), secrets are being exposed at an alarming and unprecedented rate. The safe is being looted. Of course, people like you do not value the secrets of Magic, and therefore, you do not value Magic. Because like I said, there is no Magic without the secret. Something else maybe - but not Magic.

From an article in the Las Vegas Weekly December 8, 2011 (*Take note Erdnasephile):

"It’s unfortunate,” [Johnny] Thompson says, “as a great many secrets are available to just about anyone who cares to investigate magic on the Internet. Of course, there’s still a close-knit group of us who strive to keep the secrets among those of us who are serious about the art. But it’s getting more and more difficult to do so..." "There’s a growing trend among young magicians,” Thompson says. “They’re exposing magic secrets on the Internet just to prove—most probably to themselves—that they know how certain tricks are done. It’s sad that they feel the need to do so. It’s also something that I don’t understand, as ours is a profession that relies on the keeping of secrets.”

[erdnasephile]

Alfred:
Given that John Thompson worked very closely with Penn and Teller (and voluntarily appeared on the Genii cover where P & T mocked the notion of "exposing" the thumb tip) I suspect that Mr. Thompson did not consider what P & T choose to do as the same as the exposure he decried in the article cited.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Erdnasephile,

I can't imagine why he would not (in his heart) see it as the same, or even much worse. The Genii cover on which he appeared came out in 1995; the interview I cited in my post was in 2011 -- 16 years later. It looks to me like his perspective changed. In any event, it would appear that, unlike so many other secrets, that one is going to remain an unsolved mystery...

[Edward Pungot]

Teller's Secrets
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLgwejKVI04

[Leo Garet]

For what it's worth people with a genuine interest in Magic, and perhaps even some performing ability, do not lose either simply as a consequence of growing older. Nor do they lose the right to have a point of view.
.

I not understanding. You are saying Teller has not genuine interest in magics because he make a French drop lesson

I lol at your face, Sir.

And yes, they are having right to pointing of view, even if much wrongs.

And I return the "compliment":

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Do you?

[Jonathan Townsend]

The magic market, (items for magicians), has requirements for "secret" similar to other publishers who embargo media from posting reviews and authors from commenting on works in detail until after the initial product sales campaign. Then things get strange when the normal product life cycle gets elongated.

Yes, of course we guard an empty safe. And we repeat some stories, endorse some myths, and ... but that's public common cause behavior.

We also quote authors out of context and hold onto technology until long after it could have enriched our commons.

"...but you forgot to point." ,

JonT

[Richard Kaufman]

Longtime No More Lurking.

[Joe Lyons]

Teller's Secrets
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLgwejKVI04

Great watch, thanks!

We don't just need more magicians like Teller - we need more humans like Teller.

[Leo Garet]

Teller's Secrets
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TLgwejKVI04

Great watch, thanks!

Agreed!