Master Class with Penn & Teller

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Peter Ross
Posts: 57
Joined: October 21st, 2017, 11:02 am
Favorite Magician: Doug Henning
Contact:

Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Peter Ross » April 30th, 2019, 2:41 pm


Richard Hatch
Posts: 1921
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Providence, Utah
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Richard Hatch » April 30th, 2019, 11:24 pm

At least one lesson involves Johnny Thompson with Penn & Teller coaching a student to do a chop cup routine.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 1st, 2019, 9:02 am

There is a lot of irony in this state of affairs. If any other magician offered something like this, magicians would be crying exposure. But they won’t because popularity trumps all issues in magic. Had penn and teller done this two decades ago they would have been considered Magic’s worst enemy - as they often were when they weren’t actually exposing anything at all.

Peter Ross
Posts: 57
Joined: October 21st, 2017, 11:02 am
Favorite Magician: Doug Henning
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Peter Ross » May 1st, 2019, 11:03 am

This is a class, so where's the (hypothetical) exposure? Is it the table of contents?

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 1st, 2019, 12:08 pm

You think something being offered as a class would immunize people to accusations of exposure?

Jack Shalom
Posts: 725
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Jack Shalom » May 1st, 2019, 12:11 pm

So people can no longer offer magic classes of their own material or material in the public domain? Or Brad are you saying that the whole exposure fear is largely nonsense?

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 1st, 2019, 12:24 pm

I am commenting on how magicians respond to things such as this.

Before penn and teller became popular, their acts of NONexposure were condemn as exposure. Now that they are popular, you won’t see any question raised about this offering.

I am NOT saying this offering is exposure. That’s not the point. (And I couldn’t judge unless I saw it first.) But people have often claimed that classes that teach magic ARE, especially if they are done via mass outreach. A case can be made for that.

However We won’t see that reaction, I predict, because the popularity status of penn and teller has changed.

My condemnation is not directed at penn and teller
But at the fickle nature of hero worshipping magicians.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4053
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby erdnasephile » May 1st, 2019, 3:14 pm

Interesting point.

To perhaps shed a slightly different light on this: to view all of the P & T Master Class lessons, it will cost $180. Anyone who is willing to pay that price is probably really interested in magic.
I seem to recall that the so-called P & T "exposures" that made people freak out were those that could be seen for free, correct?

There are certainly some exceptions where people overreacted even when money changed hands (Pat Page), but it seems the "exposures" that might accidentally be seen by channel flippers tended to draw the biggest condemnations in the past.

Therefore, might not the $180 admission fee contribute to tamping down the unfounded criticism this time around?

Joe Lyons
Posts: 155
Joined: November 13th, 2017, 8:27 am
Favorite Magician: Wonder
Location: Texas

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Joe Lyons » May 1st, 2019, 4:28 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Interesting point.

To perhaps shed a slightly different light on this: to view all of the P & T Master Class lessons, it will cost $180.

Actually, if I read this correctly it is only $90 for P&T. (Still enough to keep out the merely curious).It is $180 for every class on the site.

I am waiting for the comparisons to this and the price of “The Magic Rainbow”.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 5083
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Bill Mullins » May 1st, 2019, 4:34 pm

Suppose you just want one of them. Is that $45?

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4053
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby erdnasephile » May 1st, 2019, 4:38 pm

Joe Lyons wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:Interesting point.

To perhaps shed a slightly different light on this: to view all of the P & T Master Class lessons, it will cost $180.

Actually, if I read this correctly it is only $90 for P&T. (Still enough to keep out the merely curious).It is $180 for every class on the site.

I am waiting for the comparisons to this and the price of “The Magic Rainbow”.


Copy that. Still, a C-Note would indicate at least some modicum of interest, I would think.

User avatar
MickNZ
Posts: 44
Joined: May 24th, 2012, 1:04 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby MickNZ » May 2nd, 2019, 12:19 am

erdnasephile wrote:Interesting point.

To perhaps shed a slightly different light on this: to view all of the P & T Master Class lessons, it will cost $180. Anyone who is willing to pay that price is probably really interested in magic.
I seem to recall that the so-called P & T "exposures" that made people freak out were those that could be seen for free, correct?


Correct.

Joe Lyons
Posts: 155
Joined: November 13th, 2017, 8:27 am
Favorite Magician: Wonder
Location: Texas

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Joe Lyons » May 2nd, 2019, 9:56 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Suppose you just want one of them. Is that $45?

Ok, I’ll bite.
Do you want a Masterclass with Penn? Or Teller?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24812
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 2nd, 2019, 10:26 am

Let's unmuddle: If someone pays for a lesson with ANY magician, it's not exposure. So let's just drop that discussion now.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 2nd, 2019, 11:14 am

youre missing the point.

Magicians cry foul at all sorts of things for which one can make the argument against exposure - take for example the reaction to the jawbreakers video series. You had to pay for those ‘lessons’ but they were decried by many as exposure.

The issue, I contend, had more to do with the popularity of the person committing the act than any actual concern with exposure.

In this case it’s particularly interesting because penn and teller, before they were popular, did things that weren’t exposure but they were accused of such.

One would think if those non exposure acts were condemned, one would find at least equal negative response to something which magicians condemned previously - the selling of magic secrets to a mass market.

But you won’t.

It has nothing to do with the issue of exposure per se, but the feckless and obsequious nature of the magic community. We decide what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ more often based on our relationship to the people doing the thing, than the issues surrounding the thing itself.

User avatar
Ryan Matney
Posts: 971
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Abingdon, Va
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Ryan Matney » May 2nd, 2019, 11:44 am

Brad Henderson wrote:It has nothing to do with the issue of exposure per se, but the feckless and obsequious nature of the magic community. We decide what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ more often based on our relationship to the people doing the thing, than the issues surrounding the thing itself.


Word to the mother.
Distilled- 100% Pure Self-Working Card Magic - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

Leo Garet
Posts: 281
Joined: March 14th, 2015, 9:14 am
Favorite Magician: Nobody In Particular

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Leo Garet » May 2nd, 2019, 11:48 am

Joe Lyons wrote:Ok, I’ll bite.
Do you want a Masterclass with Penn? Or Teller?


Neither.

Leo Garet
Posts: 281
Joined: March 14th, 2015, 9:14 am
Favorite Magician: Nobody In Particular

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Leo Garet » May 2nd, 2019, 11:52 am

Brad Henderson wrote:But you won’t.
It has nothing to do with the issue of exposure per se, but the feckless and obsequious nature of the magic community. We decide what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ more often based on our relationship to the people doing the thing, than the issues surrounding the thing itself.

Strike out the word "magic" and this cap fits everybody. And every situation.
Doesn't it?

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 2nd, 2019, 12:53 pm

to the degree that it’s true in magic? I don’t think so.

Of course I can’t speak for all fields.

But I think the nature of magic encourages it. But that’s a conversation for another thread.

Mike Kamlet
Posts: 78
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Mike Kamlet » May 6th, 2019, 9:34 am

On this week's Penn Sunday School, Penn, Piff John Lovick and Matt Donnelly talk about Master Class

/https://pennsundayschool.com/episodes/

Peter Ross
Posts: 57
Joined: October 21st, 2017, 11:02 am
Favorite Magician: Doug Henning
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Peter Ross » May 8th, 2019, 3:28 pm

Part 2 of Penn’s Sunday School episode on their Master Class contains some very interesting thoughts. Penn seems fascinated by the idea of integrating more magic terminology into performances - words like “effect" and “method.” And he even would like to (hold on to your top hats) have a piece where Teller simply demonstrates how to do the French Drop as a performance. I love that idea, and coincidentally, had just ruminated on a similar idea of presenting a magic lecture as a public performance, after having attended a Max Maven lecture in New York last month:

http://www.suitcaseofwonders.nyc/diary

Kent Gunn
Posts: 636
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Kent Gunn » May 8th, 2019, 4:54 pm

Brad, do you purposefully not capitalize Penn and Teller's names? I find it jarring. If it's just indolence, on your part, fine. If not wtf?

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2421
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Ian Kendall » May 8th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Given that the majority of the Masterclass customers will be annual subscribers (pretty much the only level they have been promoting for the last couple of years), I think most of people who watch the lessons will be idly curious. There's no way of knowing, of course, but I don't think this will result in any more secrets being 'out there' than there are on YouTube already.

Also, I think it's a bit of a grey area when discussing the whole 'exposure vs paid lessons' thing; as I mentioned above, I think most of the people watching will not have paid for the magic lessons _specifically_. It's a bit like paying for cable TV, and the Masked Magician comes on - you didn't specifically pay for him, but there he is (if you feel the need).

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Brad Henderson » May 8th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Kent Gunn wrote:Brad, do you purposefully not capitalize Penn and Teller's names? I find it jarring. If it's just indolence, on your part, fine. If not wtf?


My iPhone fails to capitalize many things. Take it up with Steve jobs.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24812
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 8th, 2019, 10:16 pm

If you pay, then it's not exposure. Paying makes you a student.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2421
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Ian Kendall » May 9th, 2019, 2:48 am

"If you pay, then it's not exposure. Paying makes you a student."

I know, that's why I said it was a grey area, because the majority of the viewers will not have paid for the magic lessons specifically.

Tom Moore
Posts: 461
Joined: February 7th, 2012, 6:45 pm
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Tom Moore » May 9th, 2019, 5:24 am

If you pay, then it's not exposure. Paying makes you a student.


So to play devils advocate for a moment; I have a YouTube premium subscription (which means i can watch all their content without any adverts or pop ups) and many of the popular YouTube videos the revenue from advertising or subscriptions is shared with the video's uploaders based on the number of viewers. In short all viewers are indirectly paying and all subscribers are directly paying the people whose videos we watch; does that therefor mean that "exposure" videos on Youtube aren't actually exposure videos any more?
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

thomasmoorecreative

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24812
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 9th, 2019, 10:20 am

Riddle me not.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1076
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 10th, 2019, 1:47 pm

Richard is more than capable of speaking for himself, but the question was raised here whether exposure videos on YouTube are not really exposure videos anymore? No. Exposure videos on YouTube always have been, still are, and always will be, exposure videos. The overwhelming majority of viewers have never paid a dime to YouTube or the exposer for anything, much less remitted payment in exchange for those videos. The minority of people willing to pay not to see advertisements are not paying a magician for lessons; they are paying YouTube to remove an annoyance from their viewing experience.

Tom Moore
Posts: 461
Joined: February 7th, 2012, 6:45 pm
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Tom Moore » May 10th, 2019, 2:23 pm

But the business model for masterclass is all about pushing users to the “everything” subscription which enables users to view all the masterclass programs so in exactly the same way as with YouTube there’s a very large number of masterclass users who are paying to view Ron Howard or Steve Martin videos who end up stumbling across the P&T footage about how magic is done. Aside from the issues of scale (YouTube is infinitely bigger than masterclass) how is this platform any different?
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

thomasmoorecreative

Chris Aguilar
Posts: 1797
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sacramento
Contact:

Re: Master Class with Penn & Teller

Postby Chris Aguilar » May 10th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Skimming this (or just about any "exposure") topic heightens my appreciation of "Sayre's Law".


Return to “Buzz”