Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Q. Kumber » May 14th, 2018, 1:23 pm

I have only met Stan Allen once, so I can't say I know him. Returning money in such a circumstance is indeed a good business decision, and maybe that is why he did it. But from what I have heard of Stan, he did it because it was the right thing to do.

I'd also refer people to Harry Lorayne's book, Before I Forget, where he describes the arduous journey he made just after 9/11, while NY city was still in lockdown, getting to Florida in a crowded train to keep a commitment he had made to a convention organiser.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 14th, 2018, 1:26 pm

I hear you Richard, and I think your point about self-regulation is an good point. However, some magic people have taken money for projects (publications, for example), never completed the subscription run, and still went on to produce more projects. Whether people are buying them, I don't know, but in two examples I'm thinking of, they are still pretty well thought of.

Even "he who must not be named" kept slinging product after he took your (and other folks') money for the Braue Notebooks. (The question of what people thought of him, I will not address.)

In my experience, many magicians are an understanding bunch and perhaps also don't have the disposition, time, money, organization, or energy for a lawsuit. This may be what lets some of the non-fulfilling folks survive. Some component of hero worship or group identification may also come into play.

However, as stated above, the law is still largely untested in crowdfunding. As potential fraud grows (estimates are that about 9% of funded Kickstarter projects never are fulfilled https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment ), it seems likely that cutting and running is going to land some in more hot water than just losing their reputation.

On related topic, the article cited above: https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment also talks about the concept of "good failures." That is, in about 15-20% of cases, Kickstarter backers reported failures that were handled in a way by creators that left them "happy with the outcome of project. Only 13% received a refund or compensation, so that means some 7% or so received satisfaction in some other way, even if that didn't involve a refund, and I strongly think that must involve effective communication. IMHO, that is what is missing here (so far) with regards to the failed project we are discussing.

Leonard Hevia
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 14th, 2018, 8:05 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Leo, you cannot compare an advertised product such as the Braue Notebooks to a crowd-funded project which is known to have a chance of not happening. Read Tom's note just above.

Apples and oranges.


I did read Tom's post. I also read Erdnasephile' s link and prefer what Attorney General Bob Ferguson said:

"Washington State will not tolerate crowdfunding theft."


Corrected a misspelling.

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Ryan Matney
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Ryan Matney » May 16th, 2018, 6:17 pm

Not here to jump on David Forrest. I don't know him and I didn't support this project.

My comment is about these weird definitions of thievery. If you take money from someone for a service or product promised and then you don't deliver it ever, then you have stolen that money. You are a thief. Period. That is the very definition.

It doesn't matter if they are paying for a service, or a product, or investing in your company. The deal is: Money for ______ , and if that doesn't happen, it is stolen. Now, you can have a great explanation and it might be your fault but in the end, you still fit the definition, if they never get their money back or the promise service. This idea that it has to be intentional in order to be theft is ridiculous.

I've made mistakes in the past and will no doubt continue to make mistakes in the future. All my mistakes have been misjudgments and things happening that I could not foresee or control. But, I've always eventually dealt with it and tried to make everyone happy.

I think Dave will come through eventually. I saw him say somewhere that he was waiting on one piece of the trick and the process was out of his control. It takes awhile to get things developed and made, with Kickstarter you are there for the whole process which can seem too long if you are used to just buying something and having it shipped immediately.
Distilled- 100% Pure Self-Working Card Magic - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

jwjmcd
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » May 17th, 2018, 2:33 am

Can anyone help me understand an update Mr Forrest gave on the 4th October?

“All parts of Cubism Maestro are with us apart from one. The final component is the close up mat. “

I empathise with Mr Forrest if things have not gone to plan but an update that implies all the manufactured components are “with us” creates and expectation.

As we are now in May 9 months later and no further updates on the mata which backers were told were two weeks away in February.

It only creates more questions than answers.


As another poster has said If Dave is in financial difficulties he can keep my money too but I’d like an update.

I can’t be fairer than that? Can I?

I sincerely hope this works out and all is well for Dave.

performer
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby performer » May 17th, 2018, 6:34 am

The worst thing you can do is hide from creditors or people you owe money to. It only makes things worse. Best to tell them up front that you screwed up and you will try hard to pay them back one day. It won't make them feel any better but at least it won't make them feel any worse. The moment you start to hide is the moment they get all agitated and unforgiving. And bad mouth you from here to kingdom come.

People can be quite kind. Not all of them of course but enough of them to make things less stressful for you. Enough of them will be flexible and understanding and a tiny few of them will say, "oh, forget about it" particularly if it is a small amount. After all quite a few of your creditors will have been in the same position themselves at some time in their lives.

If you are upfront they will merely think you are a lousy businessman. If you hide they will think you are a criminal. Always be upfront with people you owe money or merchandise to. Silence is the very worst thing you can do.

pabloin us
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » May 21st, 2018, 8:48 am

Anyone had heard from Forrest and the 20000 pounds (money not weight) of merchandise he owes to the 200 backers?

Has anyone any idea to make sure Forrest understand that he at least must inform why he is doing what he is doing? Is any UK magician association that could intervene on behalf of the backers ? Some of the backers are from the UK and many more from EU.

Thank you

Tom Gilbert
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Tom Gilbert » May 21st, 2018, 9:09 pm

I know nothing about Kickstarter except I'd never participate. Could a group of you make complaints about this? Complaining on the Genii Fourm won't be of much help.


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