Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

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Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 3rd, 2017, 3:18 pm

My friend Dave Forrest is running a Kickstarter campaign for a great set of tricks: a Chop set done with dice and dice cups. The quality of the materials is top notch, and his price is excellent considering the number of items you receive (multiple cups and dice) in a beautiful box. I encourage you to take a look!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/92 ... sm-maestro
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Robert77 » March 3rd, 2017, 4:17 pm

Nice. I do wish he didn't tip the gaff by name in the Kickstarter video though.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Matt Herbert » March 5th, 2017, 8:45 pm

Richard.

Thanks for posting this. The product looks great.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 5th, 2017, 8:50 pm

The campaign has made great strides toward its goal, but still needs to sell a bunch more!
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Matt Herbert » March 5th, 2017, 9:08 pm

They have my support and pledge. I have gotten some very cool things on Kickstarter.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Matt Herbert » March 7th, 2017, 6:17 pm

Richard. Don't know if you heard but this Kickstarter Campaign has been funded.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2017, 7:50 pm

:)
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby YNG » May 7th, 2018, 3:47 pm

Looks like your friend's worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign was a disappearing act. The project was successfully funded more than a year ago but your friend picked up the funds and disappeared. Left with nothing are the + 200 people that believed in and supported this. If you hear from him, tell him to go and fulfill his obligations at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/92 ... sm-maestro. Thank you :-)

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 7th, 2018, 4:03 pm

I think that’s pretty obvious.


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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » May 7th, 2018, 5:03 pm

Richard, I guess you didn’t see my post from a while back checking on this guy? I was wondering how I even found out about this, now I know. Money gone and Kickstarter ruined for me and I’m sure many others. If you have any contact with the man we would appreciate an answer to what the deal is. Sincere thanks in advance for your help if you can supply any.

Thanks, Joe et al

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 7th, 2018, 5:57 pm

I know Dave Forrest, but we are not close friends. I thought this was a worthwhile campaign and that's what I wrote. Sometimes Kickstarter campaigns go sideways. I've been burnt twice, but that doesn't immediately discount all Kickstarter campaigns for me. I like supporting interesting projects (some a lot more expensive than this).
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » May 7th, 2018, 6:50 pm

Totally understand Richard. I’m just grasping at straws at this point. The worst part is we have seen the finished goods sitting in boxes or at least what looks like finished goods. :(

Thanks, Joe

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 8th, 2018, 1:22 am

I can't speak to what has caused the problem with the completion of the project. Who knows? The death of a relative or loved one can send someone down a black hole that can take years to climb out of.

It's very easy to start lighting the torches and marching through the town (insert your favorite Frankenstein movie here), but we don't know why Dave seems to have dropped the ball. There's usually a reason, a trigger, when someone or something goes off the rails.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Roger M. » May 8th, 2018, 10:53 am

In addition to Richards notes about serious personal issues (which can be devastating, and drain one completely of incentive to do anything at all) I think the most common stumbling block for Kickstarter projects (that aren't a complete scam from the get-go) is the creator simply running out of the project funds generated by investors, and being forced to try to complete the project on their regular source of income.

It can be as simple as not having the couple/few thousand dollars required for postage ... even though the project is essentially complete.

I don't do Kickstarter, but I've been watching this particular project with the intent of purchasing when he finally releases it ... if he indeed releases it at all.

The rub here is that Dave Forrest isn't exactly a stranger in the magic world, and he maintains quite a high profile (recently performing at the Magic Castle). It's a bit shocking that Forrest isn't doing more to protect his personal reputation ... although to be realistic, the somewhat severe damage is likely already done.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » May 8th, 2018, 12:00 pm

Richard, I appreciate your comment very much and never really thought of that so thank you. I just wish we could hear that from someone connect to Dave. If in fact something like this happened and the money helped get them through a tough spot it’s $100 well spent. I’m not ready to get my tourch and pitchfork out for something like this, I save that option for things like evil scientists, rogue monsters and maybe alien attacks.

Peace, Joe

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby DoctorWhat » May 8th, 2018, 4:14 pm

Aside from the kickstarter issues. This reminds me of a routine a much younger Martin Lewis did on an old John Davidson show, where he appeared with Harry Anderson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M535fujwD-Y

The dice/chop cup routine starts about 5 minutes in.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bill Mullins » May 8th, 2018, 4:59 pm

DoctorWhat wrote:This reminds me of a routine a much younger Martin Lewis did on an old John Davidson show, where he appeared with Harry Anderson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M535fujwD-Y

At 2:28, when Harry is showing off the holdout, you can see cards falling out of Martin's sleeve.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 8th, 2018, 8:32 pm

Roger M. wrote:The rub here is that Dave Forrest isn't exactly a stranger in the magic world, and he maintains quite a high profile (recently performing at the Magic Castle). It's a bit shocking that Forrest isn't doing more to protect his personal reputation ... although to be realistic, the somewhat severe damage is likely already done.


I think that's a fair point. However, some people just seem to get away with it, depending on how nice of a person they are and who their friends happen to be. I can think of two well known card men who have ripped me (and a lot of others) off, and they still continue to flourish (no pun intended).

I realize many (most?) of these projects start off with good intentions, but at the end of the day, IMHO, if you take money and don't deliver what is promised, it's still thieving. It's always been interesting to me that some of the people who are so obsessed with who allegedly "stole" what card sleight can't seem to stomach the notion that stealing money is a far more serious offense.

Don't want to end on a downbeat, so kudos to the two people who actually made things right: RK, who promptly returned my check when an envisioned product never materialized because he had a bigger, better project to work on (for about 20 years now), and Michael Ammar, who used his own cash to make sure MAJ subscribers got value for their money when Fleischer took off. No goofy excuses from these gentleman--they did the right things. This is why I don't hesitate to scratch a check for any preorders they may offer.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » May 12th, 2018, 9:23 pm

To actually speculate on reasons for why somebody pocket 20000 pounds and gave no reasons or explanations when he keeps a personal facebook with nice postings, and is a happy participant of Bannon's DVD is at least naive or silly. If he has acpersonal or business issue what would be better than an explanation in KS, themagiccafe or here. He chosed otherwise, so the only understanding possible is that he took my money and used for something else. Actually this project went down at a given time when no recourse could be made with the credit card companies due to the time lapsed. Other issue is that most of the investor/buyers are from outside of EU which even tied up the hands for potential legal actions. Net, rather than making excuses for Forrest, it will be better if you know him, to make him understand that keeping 20000 pounds from 200 people is plain wrong.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 12th, 2018, 10:08 pm

Yes, of course it's wrong for him to keep the money if he doesn't deliver the product. And he'll pay a price for that when he tries to sell something else.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » May 13th, 2018, 4:53 am

I backed the project in good faith and had my Credit card charged . Dave Forrest updated the page in February explaining that it was two weeks until he would get delivery of the close up mats which were NOT part of the original deal Then I noticed he wasn’t at Blackpool. My heart sunk. Without an update and with several updates exposing just two more weeks I am not holding my breath.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Tom Stone » May 13th, 2018, 6:49 am

erdnasephile wrote: but at the end of the day, IMHO, if you take money and don't deliver what is promised, it's still thieving.

No it isn’t. Kickstarter isn’t a webshop. You are not buying stuff there. It is a crowdfunding site, where you invest in interesting projects and gamble that it comes to fruition. It is far less ”thievery” than most other gambling.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jackpot » May 13th, 2018, 10:12 am

Tom Stone wrote:
erdnasephile wrote: but at the end of the day, IMHO, if you take money and don't deliver what is promised, it's still thieving.

No it isn’t. Kickstarter isn’t a webshop. You are not buying stuff there. It is a crowdfunding site, where you invest in interesting projects and gamble that it comes to fruition. It is far less ”thievery” than most other gambling.


While Mr. Stone may not consider Dave Forrest a thief, at this point Dave Forrest is acting like a thief. Whether he initially intended to fraudulently take other people's money I cannot say, and only time will tell. At this point it can be said that, other than taking the money, Dave Forrest is not following the Kickstarter terms of use.

erdnasephile wrote: It's always been interesting to me that some of the people who are so obsessed with who allegedly "stole" what card sleight can't seem to stomach the notion that stealing money is a far more serious offense.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » May 13th, 2018, 1:41 pm

With all due respect Tom I don’t know how this can be interpreted any way other than thievery. He has our goods we know this by the photos he has supplied us of them sitting in his home. Unless those were somehow staged which I highly doubt. I guess you could term it dishonesty if you wish. I’m a pretty level headed person but facts are facts. I always try and give the benifit of the doubt as I stated above. If personal circumstances don’t allow Dave to ship these simply let us know that, he could do that free of charge. He can keep my money if he needs it that badly.

If you know him Tom, please reach out to him and let him know we would like an update.

Peace, Joe

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 13th, 2018, 4:21 pm

I would not say that Dave is acting like a thief ... how do thieves act? That's subjective.

I think he's gotten himself into a mess and doesn't know what to do about it. That might be bad judgement or stupidity rather than thievery.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jackpot » May 13th, 2018, 5:23 pm

[quote="Richard Kaufman"]I would not say that Dave is acting like a thief ... how do thieves act? That's subjective.

I think he's gotten himself into a mess and doesn't know what to do about it. That might be bad judgement or stupidity rather than thievery.[/quite]
With all due respect, yes, members of the magic and banking communities are all being subjective and offering suppositions. Why? Because Dave Forrest has failed to deliver or communicate with his 203 backers who pledged £19,703 ($26,687 U.S.). Thieves take things which do not belong to them or misappropriated funds. Dave Forrest actions definitely raise concerns. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but, while it seems improbable, perhaps he is unaware that backers have been trying to contact him to find out what is happening. They have not heard from him for over three months. Hopefully he will contact those who trusted him and give them an update.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 13th, 2018, 6:54 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I would not say that Dave is acting like a thief ... how do thieves act? That's subjective.

I think he's gotten himself into a mess and doesn't know what to do about it. That might be bad judgement or stupidity rather than thievery.


When Busby accepted the money for subscriptions to The Braue Notebooks and failed to send the last half of the remaining issues to subscribers, was that stupidity/bad judgement, or thievery?

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 13th, 2018, 7:52 pm

Just to add to the discussion--perhaps there is more legal liability for non-delivered projects than commonly thought (at least in one American state):

http://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-release ... shady-deal

In addition, it appears that UK law may be starting to evolve a little bit on this issue as well:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/3 ... vega_plus/

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Tom Stone » May 13th, 2018, 8:52 pm

Joe Naud wrote:With all due respect Tom I don’t know how this can be interpreted any way other than thievery.

If you buy something, and it isn't delivered, then yes, that is thievery. But you haven't bought anything here, you have gambled on a crowdfunded project, and it is in its nature that it might fall through. You're not supposed to invest more than what you can afford to lose. I've invested in plenty of stuff, and some of it never came to fruition. Other things, like the 3d printer I invested in, became 1.5 years delayed and was thought to be a dead project, when it suddenly appeared with greatly updated specs as an reward for our patience.
If you know him Tom, please reach out to him and let him know we would like an update.

I don't know him. I once had an argument with him (where I was in the wrong), but that's all.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 13th, 2018, 8:57 pm

Leo, you cannot compare an advertised product such as the Braue Notebooks to a crowd-funded project which is known to have a chance of not happening. Read Tom's note just above.

Apples and oranges.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jackpot » May 13th, 2018, 8:59 pm

Tom Stone wrote:No it isn’t. Kickstarter isn’t a webshop. You are not buying stuff there. It is a crowdfunding site, where you invest in interesting projects and gamble that it comes to fruition. It is far less ”thievery” than most other gambling.


erdnasephile wrote:Just to add to the discussion--perhaps there is more legal liability for non-delivered projects than commonly thought (at least in one American state):

http://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-release ... shady-deal

In addition, it appears that UK law may be starting to evolve a little bit on this issue as well:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/3 ... vega_plus/


This makes sense legally. (As well as ethically and I would hope morally.) Kickstarter may not be a webshop but it certainly looks like a webshop. The creators act like webshop merchants accepting money and promising future delivery. The rulings by the courts clearly indicate that crowd funding is not gambling. In the cases cited the creators accepted money from backers for a specific purpose and didn't follow through; then stopped communicating with backers. It sounds exactly like what has been happening with Dave Forrest's Cubism campaign.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 13th, 2018, 9:05 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Leo, you cannot compare an advertised product such as the Braue Notebooks to a crowd-funded project which is known to have a chance of not happening. Read Tom's note just above.

Apples and oranges.


I did read Tom's post. I also read Erdnasephile' s link and prefer what Attorney General Bob Ferguson said:

"Washington State will not tolerate confounding theft."

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » May 13th, 2018, 9:39 pm

Tom, Richard, I believe you are missing the point here. We, I, are pissed not because the crosfunding went sour or Forrest had a personal issue. People are pissed because he chose to ignore the 203 investors, and provide no information whatsoever on what is the real problem instead of the10 cents piece of foam farie tell , that nobody cares nor provides any value to the final product that he said and showed pictures that he has all completed. This is the issue he hides in silent why he still around not looking so stress about keeping my money, while otger people try to explain for him his bad behavior.
There is nothing more to this, that ignoring 203 people and keeping 20000 pounds with no explanation. These are facts everything else is especulation.


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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jack Shalom » May 13th, 2018, 10:58 pm

Investors even in a failed project have the right to know the truth about what went wrong. Until that happens at a minimum, it's a scam.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 13th, 2018, 11:04 pm

performer wrote:I think this article is relevant to the discussion:

http://time.com/money/3419108/kickstart ... sed-to-it/


For context, the Time Magazine article was published before the two court decisions cited above. Perhaps it's becoming not as cut and dried anymore, especially if more courts rule an implied contract is being agreed to between the crowdfunding creators and their backers.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jackpot » May 13th, 2018, 11:26 pm

While we have differing opinions about this matter it's important to keep track of dates:

Oct. 1, 2014: Date of the article that appeared in Money provided by Performer
July 22, 2015: Date of Washington State case ruling from the article provided by erdnasephile
Feb. 14, 2017: Kickstarter project launch date for Dave Forrest's "Cubism"
June 2017: Delivery date posted on Kickstarter by "Cubism" creator Dave Forrest
Jan. 31, 2018: Date of article about the English court ruling provided by erdnasephile

Based on the subsequent rulings, the courts see this differently than Jacob Davidson (the writer for Money). I suspect that other courts will hand down similar rulings as cases come before them. Backers for Kickstarter are not buying an equity interest or loaning money to the creators. If they were they wouldn't be called "backers", they would be called shareholder or bondholders.

As a side note: To date Kickstarter has raised over $3.675 billion. This has generated over $183 million in fees for Kickstarter and over $110 million in fees for their payment processors. With these amounts of money involved there will no doubt be greater scrutiny.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby performer » May 14th, 2018, 12:22 am

I would be highly tempted to say "Sorry, it didn't work. Hard Cheese!" That way at least the investors (and that is really what they are) would know what was going on.

I would suggest Mr Forrest try a similar approach with gentler wording.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 14th, 2018, 8:59 am

In my list of good guys (RK and MA), I neglected a big one, Stan Allen. When Magic Legacy didn't pan out, he gave a 100% refund plus a copy of Square One to everyone who prospectively subscribed to his proposed project.

It would be, of course, easy to say: "Well, Stan was running a successful magazine. It's his core business. Plus, he's stable financially." However, that's not where that honorable behavior began.

Stan likes to tell the story of when he owned a failed magic shop and approached Bill Larsen to pay him 50 cents on the dollar to try to settle accounts. Bill declined the offer, telling Stan that the magic world is a small community and it would be important to pay back the full amount no matter how long it took. Bill stressed the importance of a person's reputation. It took a while, but Stan paid back every last cent.

I've known Stan since I was a kid and I've always appreciated his honesty in matters like these.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 14th, 2018, 12:34 pm

I'm not making a comment on Stan Allen with the following note, simply stating a fact of business:

He had to refund everyone's money for MAGIC Legacy or none of those people would have ever gone to a MAGIC Live again, for which he now depends upon for his income.

The same is true of me. If I took a lot of money from people for a book, and never delivered said book, who's going to buy my next book?

The market is self-regulating in this regard.

I wrote Dave Forrest a note on Facebook to which he never replied. Who is going to buy one of his products in the future? Only he can make that right. But I've no idea what the circumstances behind this are.
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