270: Apollo Robbins on the Other Side of the Record

[Jonathan Townsend]

[quote="Bill Mullins"...With any big problem, you break it down into smaller ones, which will make approaching solutions more attainable. Address the smaller parts one by one, and over time, the big problem will be solved...

Ah, taking Descartes out of context. Somewhere between Marlo's wish to name his explorations and Asimov's Universal Library (or Borges's if you like) is something that might be useful to the student reviewing prior art.

The big problem is timely relevance. That's time value of "secrets" to the folks who sell stuff in magic. That cigarette act and all those little touches with smoke ... whatever those "secrets" are - in just a few years it's e-Cig/Vape history -> trivia -> stuff they did in the age of smoke and people who did not see themselves in mirrors.

For fun, read this: http://edge.org/response-detail/26791
and consider the gaps in on-hand literature's provenance and historicity.

[erdnasephile]

Actually, the roots of the Elmsley count go back before Edward Victor.

Stephen Minch writes: "...Mr. Elmsley...cited Edward Victor's E-Y-E count and a false count devised by Eric de la Mare...as important sources for elements of the sequence." "Earlier sources exist for these ideas: Charles Jordan and Laurie Ireland for the block push-off, and Ellis Stanyon for the under--the-packet return." "...Mr. Elmsley's friend Francis Haxton unearthed a clearly related sleight by Charles Jordan in a 1919 trick, 'the Phantom Aces' (ref. 30 Card Mysteries, pp. 37-38)...now known as the Jordan count..." [The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley, Volume 1, pg 26.]

[Bill Mullins]

Conjuring Credits simply reflects the current standard - and is doing a great job of "drilling down" to root sources as they are currently understood/accepted. What I'm critiquing is the industry standard itself, to which CC is more or less subject. IMO, given the sheer volume of published (and unpublished) work, our penchant for "claiming" variations of preexisting work, the similarity of these variations, and the simplicity of many things claimed, we're rapidly approaching some sort of tipping point. It may soon be impossible (or highly impractical) for the average writer or developer to thoroughly and accurately trace their work's lineage/precedents.

This is one reason I prefer terms like "attributed to" over "developed" - particularly when the credited item (e.g., Tilt/DI) is simple and prone to reinvention.

I don't disagree with the idea that slicing hyperfine variations of standard moves and then claiming credit based on miniscule differences is possibly silly.

But the general study of credits and invention is a good thing, and I took your comments to be a criticism of that practice and those who are doing it. I'm glad to see I misunderstood what you were up to.

[performer]

The EYE trick is a damn good trick. I wish I exerted myself to learn it.

[Brad Jeffers]

Does anyone consider it a flaw in the crediting process, that when utilizing the "written record", for the most part, the only records considered are those which are written in English?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Does anyone consider it a flaw in the crediting process, that when utilizing the "written record", for the most part, the only records considered are those which are written in English?

If you go back to first recorded mentions for an item and make sure those sources are available - as is the Scot book... sure. I'd like to read sources before Reginald Scot's book. In a way finding some old Latin work might help as that would get us back to spare compact discussion.

Any news on the trick with the pebbles as reported by Seneca?

[Jon Racherbaumer]

In an effort to lend some perspective to this discussion can we at least agree that an idea, move, technique, or sleight is one thing, but how such things are APPLIED and USED is quite another thing…and in many case the applications are far more important.

The Gilbreath Principle, for example, is a wondrous. But how it has been used and applied are more interesting and important. The same applies to the Elmsley Count or the Jonah Card or the Double-Back card.

The concept of Zero is another.

This is when the Attribution Game really gets gnarling and interesting.

Who, for example, invented calculus?
Who discovered America?
You invented the sandwich?

Onward...

[Richard Kaufman]

Some of these important questions raised by Mr. Racherbaumer can be easily answered:
1. I discovered America.
2. I invented the sandwich.

Don't know squat about calculus, so can't claim that one.

[lane99]

Apollo Robbins should apologize to Gregory Wilson for the lies he told about him in this podcast.

[Brad Henderson]

Apollo Robbins should apologize to Gregory Wilson for the lies he told about him in this podcast.

Ah - so you are the one with the evidence that proves Apollo is lying.

We have been waiting for you, eagerly.

Please, share what you know!!!!!

[Richard Kaufman]

Mr. Lane is apparently in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Far from the action.

[Bill Mullins]

Does anyone consider it a flaw in the crediting process, that when utilizing the "written record", for the most part, the only records considered are those which are written in English?

Well, for the most part, the records of conjuring are in English. I'd be surprised if this "flaw" did not exist.

But even so . . .

The Conjuring Credits website has numerous references to German, French, Italian, and Spanish sources. And Gibecière has done admirable work in translating and making available very old foreign language conjuring texts, often with specific listings of credits that can be pulled from them, and has published many articles by Mitsunobu Matsuyama documenting Japanese magic and magicians of history. In the second issue, editor Stephen Minch said (in reference to how one article came about), "In this fashion, researchers from five countries, working in three languages, were drawn into a common effort with satisfying results." So I'd suggest that the people who are working hardest at documenting credits are in fact considering the magic of other cultures.

[lane99]

Mr. Lane is apparently in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Far from the action.

Cut back on the time you've budgeted for dispensing fatuous ad hominems and you might suddenly find you've enough time to listen to the podcast in contention.

[performer]

There are three sides to this story. The Gregory Wilson side, the Apollo Robbins side, and the truth.

[Bill Mullins]

Mr. Lane is apparently in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Far from the action.

Cut back on the time you've budgeted for dispensing fatuous ad hominems and you might suddenly find you've enough time to listen to the podcast in contention.

"Thanks for letting me come to your house. While I'm here, I'll just crap on the carpet."

[performer]

Well, he could be anybody with strong feelings about the matter. A close friend of Gregory's, a relative, or someone who feels he has been stiffed by Apollo before. Nobody posts with such intensity unless there is a reason. I would like to know the reason.

Rather than kick him out as an understandable knee jerk reaction I would like to hear his (or perhaps her)motivation. There may well be more to it. It is obvious that he or she went to the trouble of joining here because he or she feels strongly about this whereas the rest of us (certainly me anyway) are just getting entertainment out of the idle gossip.

So tell us more, Mr Lane.

Calgary? I bet it is bloody Paul Alberstat!

[Daniel Z]

Genii Strikes First!

Purely by chance I stumbled on a proposal made in Genii #1 dated Sept. 1936 You will find, under the heading Special Announcements, a proposal for a Registration Service: “…we should like to run a department devoted to the registration of magic tricks, acts and writings… “
The note concludes; “Perhaps the idea is without a great deal of practical value but it may serve to settle disputes arising in the future as to priorities.”

Perhaps this should be filed under — plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Genii Strikes First!

Purely by chance I stumbled on a proposal made in Genii #1 dated Sept. 1936 You will find...
Perhaps this should be filed under — plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

URL for that?

and Maybe Angelo Lewis could translate that into English - as he did such a nice job with the Robert-Houdin book

[Brad Henderson]

There have been at least two previous attempts at a registry in my lifetime. neither gained any traction.

My concern would be how to prevent such committees from becoming tools of exclusion of the less well liked. As we have seen time and again, those who are popular get the benefit of the doubt and sometimes even the credit, regardless of whether or not it is due.

[Jonathan Townsend]

... how to prevent such [...] from becoming tools of exclusion of the...

What, you want to both give them the books and read to them?

[Brad Henderson]

... how to prevent such [...] from becoming tools of exclusion of the...

What, you want to both give them the books and read to them?

I don't understand what you are saying. Or perhaps, I was unclear.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Let's go with both of those.

I agree that setting up committees to maintain the good and proper and keep out the wrong kind, like those who wear blue socks for example, would not help our craft. Who decides who needs to know?

But we also have vested interests in selling products by way of wholesale/retail/commodities markets. What's the product?

Then we have the "publish/crediting" fuss. Just because someone has something that works for them and someone else writes it up ... that's not the item's provenance. For example my annoyance about the Sankey crediting on "flying shuttle pass". To start, I was first in print. And kindly recall that I did not make claims upon the item - and deferred that to Presto. See the tangled mess we get into so easily around here? It's been getting worse. That's not even getting into copyists and those who wish to make a career of writing. Angelo Lewis was a fine writer. Not sure he got permission to to writing up what he wrote about though. Then we get to Huggard and Braue and Expert Card Technique - fine reportage - maybe not the best for recording provenance.

BTW I heard about loading folks with coins from Mickey Silver and others back about 2002 and there's an item in The Stars of Magic by way of Slydini that has some ideas on that ... back to circa 1960???


To summarize, we have an underground, a free market, and some cross purposes that work about like the celebrity market. Pie fights for publicity? Do we need to take that path? Do we want a reputation like actors and theater folks had back turn of last century with scandals and sordid details/gossip?

[observer]

I heard about loading folks with coins from Mickey Silver and others back about 2002 and there's an item in The Stars of Magic by way of Slydini that has some ideas on that ... back to circa 1960???

In what way is loading specs with coins an innovation over loading specs with spring chickens/sausages/mixed veg/etc, which conjurors have been doing for centuries?

[Jonathan Townsend]

I heard about loading folks with coins from Mickey Silver and others back about 2002 and there's an item in The Stars of Magic by way of Slydini that has some ideas on that ... back to circa 1960???

In what way is loading specs with coins an innovation over loading specs with spring chickens/sausages/mixed veg/etc, which conjurors have been doing for centuries?

The coin loads were done secretly. If similar was done with specs using larger props - that's great! Would you point to some sources for that (as report if not specific-detailed methods) so we can get that schemea onto more solid ground in our literature?

[observer]

I heard about loading folks with coins from Mickey Silver and others back about 2002 and there's an item in The Stars of Magic by way of Slydini that has some ideas on that ... back to circa 1960???

In what way is loading specs with coins an innovation over loading specs with spring chickens/sausages/mixed veg/etc, which conjurors have been doing for centuries?

The coin loads were done secretly. If similar was done with specs using larger props - that's great! Would you point to some sources for that (as report if not specific-detailed methods) so we can get that schemea onto more solid ground in our literature?

Hell, that's an easy one:

Eddie Joseph's "Art of Body Loading" 1950

"To make a Card vanish from the Pack, and be found in a Person's Pocket" Modern Magic 1877

And hundreds of other examples, the concept probably goes back centuries further, you weren't seriously questioning that, were you?

Anyone care to answer the original question?

[Bill Mullins]

The coin loads were done secretly. If similar was done with specs using larger props - that's great! Would you point to some sources for that (as report if not specific-detailed methods) so we can get that schemea onto more solid ground in our literature?

Hugard's Magic Monthly Oct 1959 has an effect "Sleighted" in which a coin is loaded into a spectator's sleeve.

See Eddie Joseph's book The Art of Body Loading and Productions, ca. 1950.

Bluey-Bluey's trick "The Bill in the Envelope" from Greater Magic (1938) involves loading a folded bill into a spectator's sleeve.

Magicians were pulling strings of sausages from spectator's pockets over a century ago (see Mysto Magic catalog, 1911).

[Jackie Huang]

Two effects immediately came to mind:

1) Roget Klause's Sponge & Sleeve

2) Slydini's Paper Balls Over The Head.

[willhoustoun]

That's not even getting into copyists and those who wish to make a career of writing. Angelo Lewis was a fine writer. Not sure he got permission to to writing up what he wrote about though.

Just a footnote...

Lewis (as Hoffmann) was very careful about what he published and kept meticulous notes of what he had been shown by people in confidence as opposed to material he was ok to publish (and the developing status of items he was told in confidence and later given permission to publish). He mentions as much in one of the additional forewords to a later edition of Modern Magic, his system can be seen in operation throughout his manuscripts and his lasting friendship with people such as Maskelyne and Devant attests to his success.

Will

[performer]

Indeed. Anyone with the name "Lewis" must have impeccable ethics.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...He mentions as much in one of the additional forewords to a later edition of Modern Magic...

Not as I recall from Dover edition I had a long time ago or what a search turned up online.
As of 1877 he remains the arbiter of what's been before the public to be fairly regarded as common property.

?

[Q. Kumber]

...He mentions as much in one of the additional forewords to a later edition of Modern Magic...

Not as I recall from Dover edition I had a long time ago or what a search turned up online.
As of 1877 he remains the arbiter of what's been before the public to be fairly regarded as common property.

?

Tread carefully here as you are dealing with the world's greatest expert on the woks of Angelo Lewis, a subject on whose works he received his doctorate last year.

[magicapplestore]

If you enjoyed listening to Apollo's story - wait a few more days. This [censored] is about to get real!

Stay tuned....

[Jonathan Townsend]

...He mentions as much in one of the additional forewords to a later edition of Modern Magic...

Not as I recall from Dover edition I had a long time ago or what a search turned up online.
As of 1877 he remains the arbiter of what's been before the public to be fairly regarded as common property.

?

Tread carefully here as you are dealing with the world's greatest expert on the woks of Angelo Lewis, a subject on whose works he received his doctorate last year.

I'd like to read the item Will mentions. The particular words posted are from the preface to Modern Magic's second edition. link

[Bill Mullins]

It looks to me like Will and JT are referring to different parts of the same preface.

If a magician had personal work he wanted to keep quiet about, Hoffmann wouldn't write it up. If there were works that were so common as to be in the "public domain", Hoffmann would describe it.

If JT is trying to disprove what Will said was Hoffmann's practice, I suppose that you could do so by showing that a trick in Modern Magic that Hoffmann described as public domain was in fact the legitimate "property" of a then-working magician.

[Scott Wells]

If you enjoyed listening to Apollo's story - wait a few more days. This [censored] is about to get real!

Stay tuned....

Brent's right. This Thursday will be the usual lighthearted podcast featuring Shawn McMaster talking about his audition for America's Got Talent. But next week we get into some "red meat" in the Gregory Wilson vs Apollo Robbins conversation with Cosmo Solano's side of the story on "International Pocket Change" vs "Exact Change". From there on for the next few weeks, others are lined up to respond to being "called out" by Gregory.

To quote the title of an old television show, "you asked for it."

[performer]

Indeed. Anyone with the name "Lewis" must have impeccable ethics.

Forget what I just said. I forgot Professor Hoffman was a lawyer.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...was Hoffmann's practice...

Just working from the text as seen, Bill. I did not recall or see reference to notes or requests in the preface to exclude material. There is mention of a self proclaimed sense of what is sufficient time. Saw that last season? Last month? A few pages later in the book the author (AL) also supports use of a shock wand.

Is M. Bautier the magician we know as Bautier DeKolta?

[Brad Jeffers]

"I have purposely limited my disclosures to such illusions as have been sufficiently long before the public to be fairly regarded as public property."

Teller's Shadows has been before the public for more than 40 years.

Would Hoffmann have considered that to be sufficiently long enough?

I guess Dogge did.

He must have read Modern Magic.

[Bill Mullins]

Just working from the text as seen, Bill.

True. But are you also bringing 21st century ethics to the table? What were the standards in 1877? Did Hoffmann have a reputation for describing things that were proprietary?

My sense is that 19th century performing magicians got mad when exposure affected their pocketbooks. Our current Vernon-Marlo "who invented Tilt" credit battles would be foreign to them.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Bill wrote: "Our current Vernon-Marlo "who invented Tilt" credit battles would be foreign to them."

Sacrilegious as this may sound, isn't it entirely possible that neither Vernon nor Marlo deserve the credit for inventing tilt?

Marlo, as phenomenal a card man he was, apparently wasn't shy about, shall we say, "appropriating" material, and close friends and/or associates of Vernon have stated that he could care less about giving credit for moves and effects he did or adapted.