Justin Willman vs Danny Cole

[performer]

I think a street wise attitude cynical attitude is the best one to take. You have to realise from the very beginning that this IS going to happen no matter how we all prattle about "ethics". The world is full of scoundrels and oddly enough there are nowhere near as many in magic as you might think. It is odd that in an activity where deception is supposed to be paramount that magicians are so innocent in the wicked ways of the world.

But then they don't have my background in the University of Evil.

However, even in magic there are a reasonable quantity of scoundrels around. It is as if the wolves are running around the chicken house and the chickens don't know how to defend themselves.

You have to expect it to happen in the same way if you leave your doors unlocked you can expect to be burgled. You have to protect yourself as best as you can. And when it happens, as it inevitably will, you need to plan in advance what to do about it. But don't complain after the fact. Decide what you are going to do in advance before it happens. And do it in an ice cold manner. Revenge is a dish best served cold, after all. And best not to let it happen in the first place.

Don't blame the person who steals. Blame human nature.

[Brad Henderson]

TED, ethics in magic are as much a function of popularity and likability as they are actual wrong and right doing. If it's someone we like (someone who is likable AND teaching us tricks we want to learn, for example) then we tend to look the other way when they behavior fails to be exemplary. As Tim mentioned, we are only to happy to accept the theiving magic dealers lies and false histories if we believe he is a nice guy.

[erdnasephile]

I think Brad is correct. (Likability also seems to play a role when a suboptimal public performance is given. The likable are often cut a bit of slack when, whereas the reviled are even more...reviled.)

Time is also a factor. When people die, there is a bit of a tendency to avoid speaking ill of the dead for most of us. As the decades pass, selective memory sometimes begins to rehabilitate the wrong doer image, especially if they had great accomplishments during their lifetime. In addition, the people who they actually wronged also die, which dampens the naysaying chorus. Time also lends perspective as lives tend to get evaluated as a whole and/or previously unknown background facts come to light about the perpetrator or their times that may have motivated their transgressions. And finally, yes, we are all human and have fallen short of the goal, including the way we sometimes inconsistently apply our standards and judgment on such things.

We see this phenomenon not only in magic, but also in future generations' assessment of prisoners and politicians.

These statements, of course, are just generalizations, as truly heinous people tend to retain their reputations (e.g., Hitler. Although, even he has his misguided historical-revisionist defenders). I'm not excusing magic thievery--far from it. However, these tendencies may help explain the lack of current outrage against Kellar and Robinson--other than the fact that the average magician probably knows very little about who they were, much less their misdeeds.

[Samwearsblacksocks06]

This is ridiculous! JW did that for his wedding! and for people to attack him while he is on his honeymoon is shameful. It is two completely different routines and Danny Cole needs to get over it! He is just jealous and insecure about his magic. Did you hear bill Malone get mad about the video that went viral of the guy who did Sam the bell hop, or how bout Dave Willamson asking for a check every time some does rocky jokes, or jeff mcbride crying over every stage magician doing his stuff. No! Cause they don't care. None of us would be a magician unless we used ideas from other magicians. We should all be proud and happy for Justin. That trick is on the market so it's fair game to anyone who want to use it. Magicians need to get over it and go back to hating Chris Angel.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around the cognitive dissonance here...

... and the strange appropriation of a movie moment. Bullet Time

[erdnasephile]

Hey, JT:

Don't you mean Bullet Time(R)?

[Brad Henderson]

This is ridiculous! JW did that for his wedding! and for people to attack him while he is on his honeymoon is shameful. It is two completely different routines and Danny Cole needs to get over it! He is just jealous and insecure about his magic. Did you hear bill Malone get mad about the video that went viral of the guy who did Sam the bell hop, or how bout Dave Willamson asking for a check every time some does rocky jokes, or jeff mcbride crying over every stage magician doing his stuff. No! Cause they don't care. None of us would be a magician unless we used ideas from other magicians. We should all be proud and happy for Justin. That trick is on the market so it's fair game to anyone who want to use it. Magicians need to get over it and go back to hating Chris Angel.

Really??? you see no difference between doing routines that have been published and sold, and taking ideas from others without permission because "we have to learn somewhere?"?!? The trick and its modifications as performed by Danny and lifted by Justin is NOT "on the market." Danny's additions are Danny's. I realize you want to paint with a broad brush because it allows your conscious to be guilt free, but please refrain from making crap up. And just because someone else may have stolen the idea and put it on the market doesn't make it right to perform it.

Tell me, was Teller happy when his shadows got ripped off? What about DC and his flying? Did they file those lawsuits because they "didn't care"?

And is Jeff "happy" that people are stealing his routines?? He wasn't when I spoke with him about it. What did he tell you? And I don't recall him being happy when he had to deal with the clone in Asia. And if he were "happy" people were stealing his routines, why did he begin SELLING these routines via private lessons? You don't have to guess the answer, he gave it himself. When he realized people were stealing his stuff he decided it was easier to start making a little money from those who wanted to learn and make sure they at least did it properly!

And you might not know this, but Sam the Bellhop wasn't an original creation of Bill Malone. It was Frank Everhardt and Bill was the one who saw it's brilliance and made it a feature. So, when all the little copy cats who can't find their own tricks saw Bill on tv they started copying. So Bill realizing he couldn't stop it, put out a DVD and made some money off of it. And still there are people who saw bill, who want to do the trick BECAUSE of Bill, and are too shallow and small minded to send him a few bucks. It wasn't YOUR vision that found the trick. HE did the research. HE worked out the touches. YOU just want to take that because - oh poor is me, I'm too stupid and lazy to read a magic book on my own and find my own tricks. I need an adult to do that for me.

Disgusting.

Pathetic.

Sad.

Tell me, with all the tricks in books and for sale today, can you give me a single reason why someone should look to another magician's act for tricks and how to do them?

I'll be waiting.

[P.T.Widdle]

Tell me, was Teller happy when his shadows got ripped off?

Wasn't that about the presentation rather than the method? This seems to be about just the method, as the two presentations are completely different.

[Brad Henderson]

why is it ok to steal ANYTHING, method OR effect, from another performer. If you didn't come up with it or obtain it through ethical sources ie buying it from an ethical source, by what right should you be using it?

and are the effects different? In both the performers body is suspended in impossible positions. Because one starts with a chair and the other a dance is akin to saying 'but I'm using red Wands and you are using red candles'.

Now some may say I am painting with too wide a brush, but my point holds even if we get down to minutia. There are elements about this method that allow for specific visual not possible with other methods. You can read Danny's post for that information.

Danny came up with a method that allowed for a certain look to this matrix style lean effect. Clearly Justin found those touches superior so he took them for his own use. If the method didn't matter he could have used the original for which had permission. Clearly these touches made a difference or they wouldn't have been lifted.

he should have asked permission.

there is no reason not to

[Jonathan Townsend]

Hey, JT:

Don't you mean Bullet Time(R)?

Right - and you can ask a certain coin man about his first coin out-of-the-box" appearance handling that is still distinct to him (ie not copied) even though in his own words "it's just a touch".

... butter

inquiring minds want to know: that's a heck of a setup to bring to a one-off performance - what does the guy do in shows? if it's a piece in performance maybe it's a good idea to seek permissions.

[performer]

I am amused about the reference to Jeff McBride. I have seen him doing the vent thing that he may or may not have stolen from Wayne Dobson or Nina Conti. This is the bit that uses live human beings instead of vent dummies. I don't know who stole it from who in the first place. I even met a magician years ago in Albuquerque who complained bitterly about another performer saying he invented it and accusing him of stealing it in turn. I happened to know that the guy who said he invented it was wrong and informed the poor chap who was greatly relieved.

I vaguely remember some fuss or other about someone who stole the routine from somebody else in more recent times but I can't remember who was doing the accusing whether it involved Jeff Mc'Bride or not.

Of course I knew all the time that every one of them had stolen it in the first place from a long deceased brilliant ventriloquist named Dennis Spicer who was killed tragically in a car crash.

Here is Spicer doing the routine in the days of black and white television.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD8SkIAUpjI

[Bill Mullins]

I'm sure the situation is the same in the USA. Here in Australia, if I wish to perform to music I need to submit my song choices to APRA, they will make sure the correct royalties go to the correct people. They will also let me know if I am allowed to use the songs I request.

http://apraamcos.com.au/music-customers/licence-types/theatre/

For example, if I want to use EVERYBODY HURTS by REM, I can use it if I perform my magic in "concert" style, but if I wish to perform my magic as a "play" REM will not allow me to use that song.

ASCAP and BMI are the two main American licensing organizations. They provide facility licenses, in which a licensee who has paid appropriately can play recordings of most anything (or sponsor musicians to perform) under many circumstances. ASCAP addresses "dramatic" licensing, which seems to be analagous to what your APRA link talks about, and which their licenses do not cover. I don't see the subject addressed on BMI's web pages.

It's not obvious from either APRA's or ASCAP's definitions that using music as background in a magic performance requires anything other than a basic license (i.e., no specific permission required). If your venue has an ASCAP/BMI (or in your case, APRA) license, you may be good to go. But working out those details is what makes mortgage payments for lawyers.

Ten or fifteen years ago, I saw you and Sue-Anne lecture in Tennessee. You had a lovely razor blades routine that was done to "Lemon Tree" by Fools Garden. How did you work out permissions/royalties for that?

[Tim Ellis]

You are correct, there are blanket licenses and there are dramatic licences.

For LEMON TREE, as it was seen as a concert piece, the blanket license covered it. However, when it came to putting the piece on my DVD 'ELLIS IN WONDERLAND', the royalty cost was very expensive for that song, so I had a friend compose some music especially for use on the DVD.

RUNAROUND SUE is a different case. I HAD to use that track on the teaching DVD of the same name so I paid a fee (a very large fee) to both the composer and the performer (via APRA) which allowed my to use the track on just 1,000 copies of the DVD.

Of course, now I'm talking about reproduction licenses which is another thing altogether.

Suffice to say, we have no such protection within our industry and, in my opinion, I wish we didn't need to! If performers would simply respect each other there would be no need!

Another example is the current litigation going on between the creator of THE ILLUSIONISTS and the creator of THE NAKED MAGICIANS over the rights to use that brand name. Again, if they had just talked about it and dealt with each other with respect then lots of legal fees could have been avoided.

I went through a similar thing a few years ago with THE MELBOURNE MAGIC FESTIVAL brand. I had assumed that fellow magicians would respect my creation and avoid creating a similar brand, however that was not the case. In the end I spent 6 months and thousands of dollars trademarking my brand. Even so, if someone comes along with deep pockets and a very determined lawyer... in he end it's the one with the most money that usually wins

[Tim Ellis]

And as bad as we think we have it, there's another group of entertainers who have it worse... "Magicians publish their tricks – they have their names attached to them. But no one cares about giving ventriloquists credit.”

http://deadline.com/2015/09/americas-got-talent-winner-paul-zerdin-stole-acts-ventriloquists-say-1201538584/

[erdnasephile]

ASCAP and BMI are the two main American licensing organizations. They provide facility licenses, in which a licensee who has paid appropriately can play recordings of most anything (or sponsor musicians to perform) under many circumstances. ASCAP addresses "dramatic" licensing, which seems to be analagous to what your APRA link talks about, and which their licenses do not cover. I don't see the subject addressed on BMI's web pages....

As a historical note, during a lecture at the 17th FFFF, Don Alan was complaining about how people stole from him right and left. He said bitterly: "You see, fellahs, there's no ASCAP in this business." (Genii, Vol 50, pg 776)

[Jonathan Townsend]

..But no one cares about giving ventriloquists credit.”

You'd think their script work would be protected in the same way as stand-up comics look after their material.