Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

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mr_goat
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby mr_goat » August 20th, 2015, 4:27 pm

Michael Close wrote:Mr. Goat:

I just want to make sure I understand your post.

Are you calling me a liar?


Not at all.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby mr_goat » August 20th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Yes, Mike, he is calling you a liar


No I'm not Richard

Stick to deleting posts pointing out Lewis is a [censored] and stop speaking for me, there's a love.

As I said, he mr close has a stellar reputation.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby mr_goat » August 20th, 2015, 4:32 pm

Michael Close wrote:P&T are not students of card magic. Although the segment in which P&T try to figure out what happened was edited for time, you can still see Teller reversing cards, trying to test if the cards were stripped.

The cull beat them completely. The head-on shot at the end showed a flop, but when you're on top of the trick (as P&T were and as Johnny and I were during the preliminary run-through) you don't see it.

They were fooled.

And I don't appreciate being called a liar.


You don't need to see something to know what's going on. Teller didn't "see" the breather in tiny plunger but he knew it was there.

He's known for one thing. His cull. He does a card trick where the solution *is likely* to be a cull. Teller isn't stupid.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Mullins » August 20th, 2015, 4:32 pm

See for yourself. Fooled the doodoo out of me.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby mr_goat » August 20th, 2015, 4:41 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:See for yourself. Fooled the doodoo out of me.


It's like seeing John leclair animate something and say you were fooled. He's known for one thing. Thread. And assuming it's lit properly, you won't *see* it. But you'll know what he's doing.

Maybe because I saw him do cull stuff at the castle around 7 years ago I'm jaded. But if I see him with a deck of cards I'm going to assume he's culling.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 20th, 2015, 4:49 pm

I doubt that Teller had ever heard of Kostya Kimlat before he appeared on the show.
Now apologize to Mike.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby I.M. Magician » August 20th, 2015, 4:52 pm

I believe that I saw when "it" happened but have no idea was "it" was. Let's just say that "it" was the moment of the deck "correction" but cannot explain just what took place.

Very impressive indeed...

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Orlan » August 20th, 2015, 5:48 pm

Did it really fool them? Did they know who Kostya was?
I have the answers! ;)

Well, not me, but go watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuKail7Jwwg

Kostya posted it himself, but it's a segment from Penn's podcast. Penn can't say his name because the interview was aired before Kostya's segment and he couldn't discuss participants.

tl;dr: Penn & Teller were fooled, and Teller suspected they might be fooled as soon as he saw his name coming up.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Brad Henderson » August 20th, 2015, 5:55 pm

so the claim being made is that this is the one reality show that is really real? a novelty in the television world and one can understand rightful suspicion.

But here is the question that I think is relevant: does it matter?

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby P.T.Widdle » August 20th, 2015, 6:37 pm

I actually like P&T's version better, from a presentational standpoint.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Marquardt » August 20th, 2015, 6:53 pm

Following a lecture, I stood next to Kostya as he was demonstrating the cull to another magician. Even though I knew what he was doing, I could not see him doing it. He is that good. From the positions that Penn and Teller were sitting they would not have suspected a cull was going on. It is perfectly possible that they were fooled at the time. They were likely looking for a more common method.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby I.M. Magician » August 20th, 2015, 6:59 pm

Watch Penn's reaction when Kostya says that he isn't going to touch the deck as he places it on the table just after that something seemed to take place. What do you make of that?

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 20th, 2015, 7:07 pm

In this case, I believe they must consider themselves fooled if they can't replicate the method. They may know that something is or has been happening, but unless they can figure out exactly what it is, they must consider themselves fooled.

I'd rather watch someone try and fool Chris Kenner. I think there would be far fewer winners.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Brad Henderson » August 20th, 2015, 7:20 pm

[quote="Richard Kaufman]

I'd rather watch someone try and fool Chris Kenner. I think there would be far fewer winners.[/quote]

which would be a terrible idea. The audience wants to feel they saw something extraordinary - and fooling the judge is, they believe, a reasonable measure of that. The more people who 'fool', the better. Increases the audience response factor.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Marquardt » August 20th, 2015, 7:32 pm

There was a bit of audience management going on there as well. Kostya had both P & T at the table and they were seated on stools putting them higher than normal and looking downward. Had Teller remained seated in his judge's chair he might have had a better shot at realizing what was happening.

Also, I believe that when Kostya set the deck on the table Penn was still expecting one more move to happen and really was surprised that the trick was "over."

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby erdnasephile » August 20th, 2015, 7:33 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I doubt that Teller had ever heard of Kostya Kimlat before he appeared on the show.


Exactly...I strongly doubt that P & T spend their spare time like the rest of us perusing current magic magazines, ads, DVD's, etc. I know the last thing I want to do is spend my free time reading magazines about and watching TV shows about what I do for a living--that would be horrifically tiresome. Therefore, although P & T may have heard of Kostya, I find it completely plausible that P & T didn't know what he was "known for." Couple that with a trick that also fooled no less than Johnny Thompson and Michael Close, and I can only conclude Kostya nailed P & T for real.

I also think that conflating Greg Wilson "fooling" P and T with what Kostya did is incorrect. Given Penn's monologue at the end of Greg's performance, it seems clear that they were just blown away by having Mark and Nani there and were paying homage to them.

Finally, in my years of dealing with Mr. Close, I have found he is as honest and straightforward as they come. IMHO, questioning his personal integrity is not cool.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 20th, 2015, 7:52 pm

I don't believe Penn knows all that much about the details of card tricks.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Duncan » August 20th, 2015, 11:02 pm

I was just telling a magician buddy about this over coffee, and I told him that my impression was that Teller had convinced himself it was a cheek to cheek deck (because of the bit where the cards a dropped and flip as they fall to the table), and missed the culling action because of that.

Kostya's changing the moment to have the selections taken AS he's doing the method is simply one of the most brilliant uses of time and method misdirection in card magic. The spectator is off guard because they have the spotlight on them, and when told they can take either a face up or a face down card they have a LOT to process. Combine that with expert handing of the cull, and it's not hard to imagine people (who aren't waiting for a cull) to be badly fooled.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Dustin Stinett » August 20th, 2015, 11:49 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:But here is the question that I think is relevant: does it matter?

Not to me. I think that the majority of the magic on this television program has been exceptional.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby performer » August 21st, 2015, 1:57 am

mr_goat wrote:
Michael Close wrote:On another forum, a post was made that P&T had to have known how Kostya did his trick and that their reactions were faked. This is absolutely untrue.


Penn is a bit stupid, so it might have fooled him.


Penn? Stupid? Hardly.......................

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby mr_goat » August 21st, 2015, 3:30 am

Brad Henderson wrote:so the claim being made is that this is the one reality show that is really real? a novelty in the television world and one can understand rightful suspicion.


Heh. Exactly.

Brad Henderson wrote:But here is the question that I think is relevant: does it matter?


Not even slightly.

Insert "arguing on the internet/special olympics" image here.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bob Farmer » August 21st, 2015, 7:08 am

Even though I'm a Farmer, Mr. Goat is not one of the animals I know. I've personally known Mike Close and Teller since the early 1980s. When Mike says something about magic, you can guarantee it's true and typically very insightful.

Mr. Goat seems to have some odd agenda. With no connection to the show, to Penn and Teller or to Mike Close, he still knows what really happened. If this was a trick, it would be called mentalism--and we all know that's a fake.

I was just out in the barn speaking with Mr. Pig, and he agrees with me.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Leo Garet » August 21st, 2015, 8:59 am

Bob Farmer wrote:
I was just out in the barn speaking with Mr. Pig, and he agrees with me.


Does the Empress also agree?

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Brad Henderson » August 21st, 2015, 11:20 am

mr_goat wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:so the claim being made is that this is the one reality show that is really real? a novelty in the television world and one can understand rightful suspicion.


Heh. Exactly.

Brad Henderson wrote:But here is the question that I think is relevant: does it matter?


Not even slightly.

Insert "arguing on the internet/special olympics" image here.


I mean, in this show, is 'winning' even really a relevant issue? I'm all about arguing on the Internet and other futile/fun activities, but I think this show would be just as interesting if people dI'd a trick and then spun a wheel to see if they got to throw a pie into the face of either of the judges.

I personally think it is sad that magic has to stoop to reality TV 'talent contest' nonsense to get aired,
so in my mind the less serious they take those elements the better. To that end, my question was directed more toward the defenders of the show than those questioning.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Leo Garet » August 21st, 2015, 12:15 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:I think this show would be just as interesting if people dI'd a trick and then spun a wheel to see if they got to throw a pie into the face of either of the judges.

Me too, although there'd be disappointments along the way, if only ONE person got to throw a pie,

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Marquardt » August 21st, 2015, 12:23 pm

I regard this show as an opportunity to see some really great magic, and yes, some mediocre performances as well. I don't know that Regal actually believed he was going to fool anybody with his routine, but it was fun to watch.

The "fool us" aspect of the show might taint it with a reality show flavor but for me that is secondary. In fact, I have never fully appreciated the format because there is the occasional revelation such as when Penn calls out "deck switch" or repeats a phrase like "out to lunch."

I just don't believe that Penn's hamming it up when he was fooled means that the result was faked. He mentions in the other video that he and Teller know every possible way that exists to perform this trick and yet he was still fooled. Kostya simply pulled a fast one on them with his extreme skill using the cull.

So what's the big deal?

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Jack Shalom » August 21st, 2015, 12:25 pm

Leo Garet wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I think this show would be just as interesting if people dI'd a trick and then spun a wheel to see if they got to throw a pie into the face of either of the judges.

Me too, although there'd be disappointments along the way, if only ONE person got to throw a pie,


In this kind of show, there has to be something more at stake, so that the audience can enjoy the vicarious struggle. No good to have a Whose Line Is It Anyway kind of meaningless scoring system--the point here is that this (magical) talent is so prized, that the best of it is worth the pinnacle of show biz: Las Vegas! (Where the talented hosts just happen to perform.)

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby P.T.Widdle » August 21st, 2015, 12:32 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:I personally think it is sad that magic has to stoop to reality TV 'talent contest' nonsense to get aired,
so in my mind the less serious they take those elements the better.


I think Fool Us is more of a game show than reality TV, and a really lighthearted one at that. The concept is clever, and P&T have been handing the "judging" part very well. I don't believe the show would survive if it was an hour-long showcase of magic with one P&T trick at the end. Like it or not, the concept is integral to the show's success.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby timbrown » August 21st, 2015, 12:37 pm

"Fool Us" is the best magic television that I have seen in a long time. It is filled with really great performers who present some really great magic. Who cares if P&T were really fooled or not. I personally think that the important thing is the performers and the performances. After all, other than on "Fool Us" when was the last time that you got to see Mac King, David Regal, Mathieu Bich, John Archer, Gazzo, Jon Armstrong, Jay Sankey and so many other great performers on TV?? If you think that the show is really just about "fooling P&T" then I think you are missing the point.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 21st, 2015, 12:39 pm

Widdle, don't tell me how to do my job. I do not monitor the Forum every minute of the day, but when I see remarks like that I delete them. It's not your job to tell me to do so.
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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Brad Henderson » August 21st, 2015, 1:38 pm

did I miss a fight? Bummer. That'll teach me to not not read the web and drive.

Fool Us is not a game show. And a game show is not reality TV. I've been on a game show. The security, the rules. the procedures are all taken very seriously. No one involved with the production would dare make a statement in support of any particular contestant.

Fool Us would not be a good show if it were a game show. it's not. It's a magic show disguised as a reality TV show. And there is nothing wrong with that - beyond a personal disappointment that magic is forced to wear a mask to get on TV.

I disagree that the contest element adds anything to it. In fact I think giving p and t the chance to award whatever type of 'award' they wanted to any or each of their acts would be just as valid. The reason the show works is because it is essentially curated. The hosts are telling the audience what they should like about each act. That breeds at least superficial appreciaction and could open the door to deeper.

I say this now having Once expressed concern with the premise of the series - fearing it would reinforce the negative/false premise that the most important element to a magic presentation is 'the secret'. It seems for the most part that people are getting something more from their adjudication than that. I hope I am correct in that observation.

so I do not think the show 'works' or is successful because of the contest factor. That may be how it got put on TV, but not the reason people seem to be enjoying it. No real person I have spoken to has ever mentioned the fact that anyone has won or lost. They just remember the acts.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Leo Garet » August 21st, 2015, 1:46 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:did I miss a fight? Bummer. That'll teach me to not not read the web and drive.

Same here. I had to pop out and get the Big Shop sorted. Sigh.........

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby P.T.Widdle » August 21st, 2015, 1:57 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
so I do not think the show 'works' or is successful because of the contest factor. That may be how it got put on TV, but not the reason people seem to be enjoying it. No real person I have spoken to has ever mentioned the fact that anyone has won or lost. They just remember the acts.


It is the secret factor. Yes, people enjoy the expertly curated acts. And they enjoy P&T. But the added peek into the mysterious world of magic is a major appeal as well. Giving prizes to the acts based on P&T's preferences wouldn't be as interesting. It's whether the acts fool the duo, and what they have to say about being fooled or not. It's definitely post-modern (in a way only P&T could pull off) in the sense that the essential component of magic is brought out in the open, so to speak. But not completely, which I think the audience appreciates and respects. Through those post-performance discussions, the audience gains an appreciation for the history and complexity of the art in a way that simply performing the effect does not. That is not to say that one is better than the other, but just that P&T, once again, have added a little meta twist in the presentation of magic that, in my opinion, pushes the art forward.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby P.T.Widdle » August 21st, 2015, 2:02 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Widdle, don't tell me how to do my job. I do not monitor the Forum every minute of the day, but when I see remarks like that I delete them. It's not your job to tell me to do so.


I believe I requested you to do so. However, I should have waited 24 hours and then sent you a private email.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2015, 3:30 pm

Bill Marquardt wrote:I just don't believe that Penn's hamming it up when he was fooled means that the result was faked.


I think that, unscripted, Penn is just a physically demonstrative guy. When he was on Jeopardy a few weeks ago, and he barely got the answer within the time limit, he jumped away from the podium and carried on just like he did with Kimlat (no chair throwing, but still . . . ).

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Bill Duncan » August 22nd, 2015, 1:36 am

I think Fool Us is a seditious. It uses the hook that Penn and Teller know everything there is to know about magic methods, and that it takes something very special to fool them. Laymen buy into this, and watch the show.

And then they see stuff that doesn’t fool P&T, but which is wonderful, and artistic, and entertaining. And they see stuff that’s wonderful, and artistic and entertaining, and DOES fool Penn and Teller.

Any maybe they learn that being fooled is only a small part, and maybe not even an important one, in great magic. Maybe the audience learns to stop worrying about how it’s done and enjoy the show…

Maybe.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby performer » August 22nd, 2015, 6:04 am

Being fooled IS an important part of the experience. However, it is secondary to other considerations. But it is a major "secondary". Without a secret there is actually not much point in performing it in the first place no matter how entertaining and artistic the presentation. The whole thing is ruined.

That is why I think performing magic for other magicians is completely pointless. It has never appealed to me. They know how it is done and the experience is completely ruined. And moreover, performing magic for other magicians tends to lead to warped thinking and invention/construction of very impractical and indeed bad magic.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 22nd, 2015, 3:11 pm

performer wrote:That is why I think performing magic for other magicians is completely pointless.


This is the point ...

Vernon utilized "The Man Who Fooled Houdini" to help increase bookings.

Kimlat utilizes "The technique that fooled Penn & Tellar" to help increase sales of dvds that explain that technique.

That's the difference between magic then and magic now.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby performer » August 22nd, 2015, 3:28 pm

In that case I prefer the old way.

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Re: Penn & Teller: Fool Us - Season 2

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 22nd, 2015, 4:55 pm

Tom Frame wrote:Kostya's Triumph was terrific! I loved Penn's bombastic reaction.
...


If you watch Penn - he responded to the larger action and may very well have understood that meant the other work already occurred. Watching Teller - he went for a card based method and found nothing. It may be that they both sensed the larger block display as relevant yet missed the roadrunner when it zoomed by.
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