One Trick Phoney

[P.T.Widdle]

So....I take it you didn't like my little FISM graphic?

Dustin, it's neither here nor there whether you find this discussion/debate (or myself) boring. Seeing your daily Charlie Brown posts about not receiving your 10 Card Poker Deal book got pretty old.

The fact is, there are plenty of magicians who find the enthusiastic welcoming of Uri Geller by FISM, the Chief Genii and others, to be at the very least, surprising, and to some, distasteful or ethically suspect.

Instead of condescending to this group, you should welcome the debate, however repetitive it may seem to you (By the way, I have personally received PMs thanking me for keeping this discussion going).
The issues raised by this Geller controversy (yes, I think it's OK to call it that), bring up a lot of fascinating points of discussion that go to the heart of what a magician is or is not, ethics within the profession, historical analogies, etc. That's good stuff!

For those, like Joe McCay, who think there are more important things in this world to be arguing about - well, yes, there are. But this is a magic forum, and I think we all know the perspective of what we are debating (again, the condescending in order to shut the conversation down).

Now, on to your point about it being "stupid" to "attack" the presenters of FISM and Genii for enthusiastically welcoming Geller. We simply disagree as to the effect of said presenters welcoming Geller. You think,

"magicians can learn something from him since he is a master showman. The only difference is how we choose to use that information."

I might agree with you if Geller truly came out as a reformed psychic, humility and all. But (and you can put your hands over your ears and say, "la la la la" now if you want), the Malaysian plane incident clearly proves that he has not relinquished his identity as someone with supernatural powers, and is still willing to make a profit from that claim (in this case by driving traffic to his web site from the publicity). So by welcoming Geller into the magic convention fold, one is tacitly condoning that behavior (yes, I know Geller was booked into the Genii bash before that incident, and Richard has stated it was "over the line," but since then he has defended Geller appearing at FISM and in general).

By welcoming Geller without accountability for past and present behavior, we are sending a message to young magicians and mentalists that you can get away with this stuff, and even be applauded for it as being a "masterful showman."

I keep thinking about Tim's anecdote about his friend who decided to dump public mentalism shows for private psychic appearances. By cheering for Geller we are encouraging those types of career choices.

Sad, in my (boring) opinion.

[Brad Henderson]

erdnase was never a reformed gambler. Should we stop turning to his work as a textbook? do we strip Vernon of his professorship from having been influenced so strongly by such despicable characters?

where do you come down on Tony Shiels? magicians who claim to be using nlp when its really a force book?

What of richard Webster? Hasn't he partnered with richard Osterlind on some products? should we boycott?

Doesn't Docc Hilford give paychic readings? Should we have expelled Nelson from our ranks for giving tools to cold readers? or do we give him a pass because he also invented the sponge bunnies?

I know several major conventions who has hired someone who specializes in psychic parties to emcee their shows. Should he be black balled?

Bob Cassidy was friends with and defended ford kross who gave readings. Should H and R burn his books?

And what of the PEA? Should we demand their roster be published so we can begin a proper shunning?

Heck, I know of one texas magic dealer who shot another man at a convention. His stuff is still highly desirable.

The point being: There are many in our field who do, successfully, that which you fear 'the children' might attempt. The difference between them and Geller? 1) level of success 2) Geller is randi's nemesis.

and 3) I've never seen you start a thread about them, only Geller, which makes me wonder:

Widdle, honestly, how much of this is about morality and how much of them stems from hero worship of randi?

[Dustin Stinett]

So....I take it you didn't like my little FISM graphic?

What gave you that idea? I didn't bring it up at all. It's fascinating how you arrive at conclusions about me when I haven't even said anything that could lead you such conclusions! Frankly I think it would be interesting to see Margery, but that's not possible, so I dismissed the image. Perhaps John Edward would have been a better choice for you to make. That would be interesting too. (But like Kreskin, and unlike Geller, he probably doesn't want to associated with magicians.)

Seeing your daily Charlie Brown posts about not receiving your 10 Card Poker Deal book got pretty old.

A mere two posts is hardly "daily" (except perhaps for someone prone to emotional outbursts while searching for something disparaging to say). It was a "callback," which is what the thing was in the original Peanuts TV show. I'm sorry I had to explain it to you.

The fact is, there are plenty of magicians who find the enthusiastic welcoming of Uri Geller by FISM, the Chief Genii and others, to be at the very least, surprising, and to some, distasteful or ethically suspect.

Bummer. Don't go and see him. I find what he claims distasteful too. That doesn't make him uninteresting and not worth seeing.

Instead of condescending to this group, you should welcome the debate, however repetitive it may seem to you (By the way, I have personally received PMs thanking me for keeping this discussion going).

Well, I'll give you that. At least you have the courage to post publicly and put your name on your posts, Mr. Twiddle. And I do welcome debate. But how many more times are you going to use the same argument?

The issues raised by this Geller controversy (yes, I think it's OK to call it that), bring up a lot of fascinating points of discussion that go to the heart of what a magician is or is not, ethics within the profession, historical analogies, etc. That's good stuff!

Yes, and I hate to say it again, but you keep saying the same thing when responding to those kinds of comments that are on the "positive" side (for lack of a better phrase) for Geller.

I have to go off to work now. It's almost AMA show time.

[P.T.Widdle]

Brad, I know it's convenient to dismiss any criticism of Geller as, "Randi hero worship." But even if that were the case, what's wrong with "worshiping" his efforts? JREF seems like a pretty worthwhile organization with a noble cause.

Is that list supposed to show that I'm hypocritical? I already said I wouldn't welcome a practicing card cheat to a magic convention (even if he would come). Being that we're talking about the magic world, of course there's lots of dubious and morally suspect behavior. It's up to each of us as individuals to draw our own moral lines. Even if you are disgusted by the behavior of those magicians, (and I'm not sure that you are given that you believe, "THERE ARE NO RULES!"), that list does not in any way excuse Geller of his own behavior. Why pick on him? Because, yes, he is more famous than the others, therefore his actions influence more people (magicians and laymen alike).

I find what he claims distasteful too. That doesn't make him uninteresting and not worth seeing.

We simply disagree as to how distasteful (or morally suspect) something someone has done for us to turn our backs on them. Geller's behavior has obviously not crossed your line so as to prevent you, in good conscience, from benefitting from whatever it is he has to offer. So be it.

----------

My wife has told me to lay off this thread for a while (Dustin, I know that's good news to you). Bye!

[Bill Mullins]

[Kreskin] personally told me so back in the 1980s when I helped bankroll his performance at a local theater;

Dustin the bankroller!

***********************

I just ran across this in a discussion of comedian Norm MacDonald:

"Norm is one of the funniest men alive, comedically brave and uncompromising. And frankly, I don't care if he murdered a cadre of Cub Scouts on the White House lawn on national television. It would not make him one iota less funny. Odious artists can create magnificent art."

[Dustin Stinett]

My wife has told me to lay off this thread for a while (Dustin, I know that's good news to you). Bye!

Our wives are very smart.

[Dustin Stinett]

Dustin the bankroller!

It was the single most expensive ticket I have ever purchased. But the show was not going to go on unless the man was paid (the theater owner went bust) and three or four of us in the audience ponied up his fee. Was it worth it? You bet.

[Joe Mckay]

I cannot recall reading a indepth article about Kreskin in any of the magic magazines.

This is probably due to the fact that he does not want to be associated with magicians. But I still feel it would be interesting for somebody to try and put together a look at his career.

Kreskin is not famous in the UK - so I know very little about his work. From what I gather - he seems to be a master at muscle reading. That alone shows a dedication to performing effects that feel as real as possible. Since this is a skill that most magicians avoid in an effort to find something more "sure fire" - if less impressive.

I wonder if he uses cards in his act? That seems to be something that Uri Geller (thanks for the spelling correction, Max!) always avoided. And even with Derren Brown - the effects that have most impressed the public have tended to be the ones that do not involve cards.

I have an interest in mentalism. And feel a lot can be learned from the likes of Geller, Kreskin and David Hoy (who seems to have flirted with psychic claims as well). Even though I would never pretend to have psychic powers - it is still a useful tool to use when putting together a performance. Since it is surprising how many magicians seem to pay little attention to making magic feel as real as possible.

Joe

PS Did Kreskin predict 9/11? My sense is that Kreskin is lying about this incident. But I am curious if anyone else knows more about his claims? You can see him talk about it here:

https://youtu.be/lsiTQvjA9DA?t=5m42s

[Jonathan Townsend]

... is surprising how many magicians seem to pay little attention to making magic feel as real as possible...

Relationship between character and audience.

There's something that happens when you notice even one person seeming unsure if you "really did it" - that most recoil from and some chose to revel in.

[runningmagicman]

I saw this had 5 pages...I read some of the first page...don't have time to read all of...but I know one thing...

HE WINS!

[Bill Mullins]

At least Geller doesn't sell Wishing Machines.

He says he got "tons of emails". Emails DON'T WEIGH ANYTHING. I think something is hinky.

[Tim Ellis]

He may print them all out just to weigh them...