Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

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Bill Mullins
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Bill Mullins » February 6th, 2015, 2:24 am

Tom Stone wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:But here's the rub. The license agreement is between Half Half Man and the original buyer of the book. If I buy a second hand copy, how can their agreement about performance rights possibly apply to me?

The agreement about performance rights do not apply to a second hand buyer, so you would not have those rights. Seems quite straightforward.


I should have been more clear. I cannot violate an agreement that I am not a party to.

Suppose you buy the book, read it, perform for a year, get tired of it, and sell the book to me for $100 cash. I read it, like the routine, and start to perform it. There is nothing that Helder can do about it, and the agreement that he made you agree to before he would sell it to you doesn't protect him from my actions in any way. Who would he sue? On what grounds? I live in Alabama, and have never agreed to accept the jurisdiction of the "province of California" (which, by the way, seems to have been corrected to the "state of California").

If he has any recourse under copyright law (and he probably doesn't), then the license agreement didn't protect him at all.

This is an example of why magicians are in a weird place with respect to performance rights. We historically have agreed to the custom that ownership of a legal copy of a published routine grants one the right to perform the routine. That custom has no grounding in law (ownership of a copy of the script to "Waiting for Godot" doesn't grant one the right to perform it, as you point out above). So either thousands of magicians routinely violate copyright laws by performing routines we haven't formally licensed, and we as a group accept and endorse the practice, or copyright law doesn't apply to magic performances, and legally we don't need each other's permissions.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 6:39 am

"Ah, so you are one of those dishonest crooks? Good to know!"

"No, it the most reasonable assumption. Ian Land's post tells me he's a person that can't be trusted with anything not nailed down".

Tom, you might want to apologise to me for libelling me twice on a public forum.

Luckily for you I am not litigious, and am old enough and relaxed enough to not get angry when people on the internet display an inability to think and understand, and start throwing insults around instead.

I guess you also think Bill Mullins, and Richard Kaufman, and anybody else who realises it is worthwhile magicians trying to understand contract and copyright law, is doing so because they are dishonest crooks trying to find loopholes? Well, as Bill pointed out, that is at best a massive assumption of bad faith, and one for which there is no support in anything anyone has written in this thread.

For the sake of clarity, my view on the published record is pretty much the same as that of any sensible adult: if a magician publishes a book, the contents of that book are no longer in that magician's control. Other magicians will adapt, improve, perhaps even ruin the routines, they will use the utility moves in other contexts, they will derive new ideas from them and transform them into something completely different. In all of this, the original magician is quite within their rights to expect to be given full credit for their original work (and whenever I have published routines, I have always striven to credit every source). What they are not within their rights to do is limit what others do with that work, once they have published it. Publication is an invitation to others to derive their own works from what has been published.

If a magician holds onto their secrets, and does not publish, I am completely sympathetic to them when someone else rips off their routines and presentations. If somebody does publish, but what they publish is subsequently reinvented (knowingly or otherwise), I am completely sympathetic to their plight if they do not receive proper credit for their original work. But, if you choose to publish a book, that book becomes part of a published record which is not yours as an individual to own or control. Thank goodness magicians have always done this. If magicians didn't publish, magic would be much the poorer. Very few of us would have an act, I suspect you included.

On the specific case of the performing rights license attached to this book: I don't believe these terms are legally enforceable, certainly not in the UK. Nevertheless, if this book contained a routine that was of interest to me (it doesn't, but that's irrelevant), I wouldn't buy it, as, regardless of the legality of the license, I would feel obliged to honour it. This is because, despite your hissy fit, I am neither dishonest nor a crook.

I hope that is now clear enough for you.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 8:31 am

Bill Mullins wrote:There are a lot of things about how copyright works in the real world that would surprise you, I bet.

One country out of 160+ is considered the real world?
Change it from recording on CD to being used in a stage show, and from Prince to My Fair Lady, and I guess it is enough to be outside the realm of this national oddity.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 8:50 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Tom Stone wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:But here's the rub. The license agreement is between Half Half Man and the original buyer of the book. If I buy a second hand copy, how can their agreement about performance rights possibly apply to me?

The agreement about performance rights do not apply to a second hand buyer, so you would not have those rights. Seems quite straightforward.


I should have been more clear. I cannot violate an agreement that I am not a party to.

Your assumption is that you have some god-given rights to someone else's artistic work. You don't. That is what copyright is about. You can not find that our particular artistic expression is exempt from the copyright protection of dramatic works.
You can't use the generosity of all those creators who have decided to share their work freely (which copyright allows them to, it is not mandatory to enforce one's rights) and claim their generosity somehow negate the rights of all other creators.
We historically have agreed to the custom that ownership of a legal copy of a published routine grants one the right to perform the routine.

When did I agree to that? Which year did that happen? Who are "we" in this case, and how do you know that Helder signed up to be a part of that "we"-group? Where is that agreement documented, and how come you are the only one who knows about its existence?

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 8:53 am

"One country out of 160+ is considered the real world?"

The law Bill cites is the same in the UK and also in most of Europe. Provided you pay the relevant royalties, you generally do not have to seek permission from the writer of a published piece of music before recording your own version of their work.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 8:54 am

IanLand wrote:For the sake of clarity, my view on the published record is pretty much the same as that of any sensible adult: if a magician publishes a book, the contents of that book are no longer in that magician's control.

That is not the view of a sensible adult, that's the view of a crook.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 8:57 am

In that case you too are a crook. Unless you want to claim that you have never adapted a routine you read in a book, or you want to claim that you have invented every move you use in every routine you have devised. We all use things we have read, all the time.

Sorry, but you simply have a completely incoherent and legally ignorant position. And stop insulting me by calling me a crook, you're embarrassing yourself.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Moore » February 6th, 2015, 9:00 am

The UK situation is specifically different, the primary licensing authorities do have prohibited lists (things which they cannot license and for which you have to deal direct with the publisher or rightsholder) and that list is growing. At present anything by Disney, Warner music and anything currently on in the west end has to be cleared directly for example.
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 9:02 am

OK, that's interesting, and I didn't know that. Doesn't change the basic point, however. Generally speaking what Bill says holds true, as far as I know.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 9:12 am

IanLand wrote:In that case you too are a crook. Unless you want to claim that you have never adapted a routine you read in a book, or you want to claim that you have invented every move you use in every routine you have devised. We all use things we have read, all the time.

That is not what this discussion is about.
This discussion is about using someone else's work without permission against their explicitly stated wishes. Your argument is to completely disregard those wishes, and that is why you have merited the label "crook".
If you can find that I have made use of someone else's work without their permission, then obviously it is fair to name me "crook" as well - but I find that unlikely since I've put a lot of work into obtaining explicit permissions even for derivative work.
Sorry, but you simply have a completely incoherent and legally ignorant position. And stop insulting me by calling me a crook, you're embarrassing yourself.

It is not intended as an insult, it is meant as an accurate description.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 9:26 am

Have you ever done an Elmsley Count, or a classic pass, or a top palm, or a Charlier Pass, or a Mexican Turnover, or a Jordan Count, or performed a routine not entirely of your own devising?

If yes, do you have explicit written permission in every case to do this? Of course you don't, and I don't believe for one moment you have. By your own reasoning, therefore, you must be a crook.

Fortunately, neither of us are crooks, as no individual owns the published record, it's there as a resource for all magicians to work with. And that's entirely to the good of magic. As long as inventors are properly credited, I see no ethical dilemmas with that at all.

"This discussion is about using someone else's work without permission against their explicitly stated wishes."

If you read my post above you'll see I make it quite clear that in the case of this book I would not buy it because - regardless of the enforceability or otherwise of the performing rights restrictions - I would feel obliged to respect those limitations, precisely because I am not a crook. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. There are two issues here: how magicians treat each other as a matter of courtesy and magical ethics; and copyright and performance licensing and what magicians can enforce as a matter of law.

In my opinion, this magician is trying to have his cake and eat it: to make money from publishing something whilst also attempting to limit the use his buyers make of their purchase. It's between him and his purchasers how that works out, but it's not a transaction I would want to be involved with.

"It is not intended as an insult, it is meant as an accurate description."

You want to be very careful about repeatedly defaming people on the internet. It could get you into trouble. Plus, it's very very tiresome and not very conducive to intelligent discussion. Please stop doing it. I have never stolen material from anyone, everything I have published over the years fully credits all its sources, and nothing I have written in this thread justifies your continued insults.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 6th, 2015, 9:42 am

Tom Stone wrote:
IanLand wrote:For the sake of clarity, my view on the published record is pretty much the same as that of any sensible adult: if a magician publishes a book, the contents of that book are no longer in that magician's control.

That is not the view of a sensible adult, that's the view of a crook.


I offer a counterargument. The point of publishing an item into the literature of magic (effect/method format) is to make sure the technical accomplishment and its methodology are available for others to build upon - much like a proof in mathematics. If you're publishing into the literature of theater (script and direction) - you're seeking performing arts protection of a pantomime/play as a distinct work.

What do you think?

yes your honor, however my character wears green socks and an orange pocket square, no glasses and does not get surprised by things hopping off the table - which incidentally is of different appearance so the claim of copying the work or its methodology has no merit. ;)
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 6th, 2015, 10:02 am

Tom: In having a discussion about these issues, someone taking a view opposing yours does not make that person a crook. Only if the person acts on those words does he then get into the ethical (not legal, at least in the U.S.) issue which you have outlined. Therefore, please stop calling Ian a crook.

Ian: The legalities of IP are quite different in the UK and Europe than they are in the United States. Things in the UK and Europe can be "owned" in a way they cannot in the U.S. Tom is quite strict in applying the moral idea of ownership, and the law as it stands in Sweden (I guess), in a world-wide view.
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Jack Shalom » February 6th, 2015, 10:18 am

If I buy a copy of Death of A Salesman, I still have to pay extra to put on a performance. Dramatists Play Service or Samuel French will hunt you down if you try to skip paying them, rest assured.

And yet, even though magic is a subset of theater, I can't quite buy the analogy completely.
It seems churlish of a magic author to offer his or her work publicly and then deny the performance rights. Sort of like selling football uniforms with the proviso that one may not get them dirty.

I suppose the market will sort that out, once the restrictions become clear. Perhaps, for some, the restrictions will indeed be a selling point.

Very different from the Teller situation, though, where the methods were not offered publicly.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 10:28 am

Thank you Richard, your intervention is appreciated.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Bill Mullins » February 6th, 2015, 10:49 am

I look forward to reviews that describe the routine in enough detail to make clear exactly what is protectable. The plot is old (Malini did multiple selections) and is clearly public domain; sleights aren't protectable; and most people who would lay out this kind of money for a routine and then perform it would make their own patter up.

Not much left.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 6th, 2015, 11:42 am

Routining, the combining of a new or existing plot, new or existing sleights, and new or existing patter, into something can create a gestalt (the whole is equal to more than the sum of the parts). The only possible thing that could be protected is this combination as a copyrighted theatrical play with choreography. But this has never been tested in court regarding magic. Even Teller's case did not forbid the guy from selling the prop as long as he didn't include Teller's theatrical presentation.
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Bill Mullins » February 6th, 2015, 11:59 am

Well, yeah, that's the theory. If I performed another's routine EXACTLY as they did, I've copied them, maybe illegally, maybe wrongly.

But who does that? We either perform impromptu, with different patter, pacing, blocking each time, or if we do stick strictly to a script, it is our own.

Do people actually learn each other's material that specifically?

Even egregious examples where people have been called out for doing the work of another (Michael Vincent's copy of Ricky Jay's multiple selection routine, for example, for which he has apologized) -- are they so close that they go beyond an ethics transgression to a copyright issue?

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby GlennWest » February 6th, 2015, 12:18 pm

erdnasephile wrote:This is exciting:

Image

Some real heavy hitters here. It's almost like this is magic's Avengers vs. Justice League (Theory 11) (I'm surprised that Derek D isn't part of the team.)



Word is that Helder and Derek have had a falling out.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 6th, 2015, 12:20 pm

That's old news. It happened while the show was in New York.
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby El Mystico » February 6th, 2015, 12:32 pm

Seems clear enough to me; the majority of magic books are published so other magicians can use the routines.
Here is a publication that lays restrictions on this. It isn't the first.
I think if you discovered these restrictions only after buying it, you'd be right to be annoyed, but it seems here they are upfront.
Is it legally enforceable? Apparently not.
This is an issue of honour. As so much in magic is.
There are interesting areas - like the reselling point already made. And what if you come up with an elaboration or development of one of the ideas?
But - there marketing has not been persuasive enough to suck me in, so for me these are academic issues.

Meanwhile - is that the Ian Land who used to publish in Pabular etc? You seem to have been gone for a long time - welcome back.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 12:37 pm

El Mystico wrote:Meanwhile - is that the Ian Land who used to publish in Pabular etc? You seem to have been gone for a long time - welcome back.


It is, thanks for the welcome. Life got in the way for a long time, but I'm working on stuff again.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby GlennWest » February 6th, 2015, 12:39 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:That's old news. It happened while the show was in New York.


Was it reported in Genii?

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 12:40 pm

IanLand wrote:Have you ever done an Elmsley Count, or a classic pass, or a top palm, or a Charlier Pass, or a Mexican Turnover, or a Jordan Count, or performed a routine not entirely of your own devising?

Classic pass, top palm, Charlier Pass, Mexican Turnover, Jordan Count are in public domain.
I've had these kind of discussions since 1990. I've had 25 years to make sure I can refute the "you do it too" argument.
I obtained explicit permission to use the Elmsley Count when I met Alex Elmsley in Lund, Sweden, in october 1996. He seemed both surprised and flattered by the request, and gave me a signed manuscript as a gift. If that is doubted, I also was granted permission a second time in late december 2005 when Tomas Blomberg obtained explicit permission from Elmsley (via Matt Field) in writing to teach the Elmsley count in a workshop.

There is one routine I do not have explicit permission to use. "Further than that" by Stewart James.
I have no reason to believe I use it against anyone's will. I own "Stewart James in Print", and I have obtained explicit permission to use other Stewart James creations (see page 257 in Maelstrom). I am fairly certain that if need arises, I can obtain explicit permission from the Stewart James estate within 48 hours.

All that is besides the point, and have no relation to the topic at hand - which is about how to act when a creator has put specific restrictions on the work.
If yes, do you have explicit written permission in every case to do this? Of course you don't, and I don't believe for one moment you have. By your own reasoning, therefore, you must be a crook.

Where have I argued that the artist's wishes should be ignored? What in my repertoire is used without permission or against the creator's wishes? What do you base your belief that I use other people's material without their permission on? I fail to see how my arguments here can lead to a such assumption.
You want to be very careful about repeatedly defaming people on the internet.

Evidently, that is not what I want. But true, more repetition serves no purpose.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby GlennWest » February 6th, 2015, 12:48 pm

I hope Tom starts talking about Pippi Longstocking again. That's always fun.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 1:10 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I look forward to reviews that describe the routine in enough detail to make clear exactly what is protectable. The plot is old (Malini did multiple selections) and is clearly public domain; sleights aren't protectable; and most people who would lay out this kind of money for a routine and then perform it would make their own patter up.

Not much left.

The thoughts go to Aesop's "The Fox and the Grapes".
I was a consultant to a TV magic show a few years ago. The director had just seen the clown Slava's snowstorm finale and was raving about how great it was, and then insisted that we should duplicate it for the TV show. But immediately he understood that neither I nor the performer had any interest in stealing someone else's work, the director began to describe how unoriginal and boring Slava's finale was -"It's just a simple wind machine, no one can have any particular rights to that!" Lots of disparaging comments on work he just seconds ago had been raving about, just to convince us it was all right to steal it (why he wanted us to perform something he described a lousy was never explained).

Yes, not much left. Unlikely it is any good. Since there can not be anything of interest for you in this release, the restrictions make no difference in your case.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby El Mystico » February 6th, 2015, 1:15 pm

Not surprised Alex was 'surprised'. Like I said; the assumption is, if it is published, it is there to be used, unless otherwise stated.

Your line "I have no reason to believe I use it against anyone's will" covers this whole area pefectly.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 6th, 2015, 1:20 pm

Tom Stone wrote:I obtained explicit permission to use the Elmsley Count when I met Alex Elmsley in Lund, Sweden, in October 1996.


I must come clean.

For many years now, I have been performing the Elmsley Count without permission. I realize that although there may be some sort of loophole in U.S. Copyright Law that would allow me to continue without fear of reprisal, it would be unethical for me to do so.

As of today, I will discontinue the performance of those routines which rely on this sleight.

Image

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 1:27 pm

El Mystico wrote:Your line "I have no reason to believe I use it against anyone's will" covers this whole area pefectly.

A situation clearly stated as "To use my material in these particular circumstances are against my will" is perfectly covered by the line "I have no reason to believe I use it against anyone's will"?

I think you have missed some essential parts of this discussion...

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby El Mystico » February 6th, 2015, 1:40 pm

I don't recall seeing Alex writing that his count could not be used without his permission. So I don't see why you felt the need to ask for it.

However; here is an interesting aspect of the discussion: I recently saw a well-known and well-respected magician perform his variation of an established effect.
It is an effect I've never performed, because it makes the spectator look like an idiot. However, this performer used one line which completely took the heat off this.
He was selling the routine, so I bought it. Not for his particular technique; I could see what that was, and would not use it; but for that line.
The line was not in the write up.
I wrote to ask him, among other things, if I could use the line. He didn't answer this question.
So I assume I can't use the line.
So I won't be performing the effect; not his, or anyone else's.

Now; I think I'm doing the ethical thing.
But I think he is being unethical, for not being clear that what he was selling did not include his patter.
Mind you, I still like and respect him.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Moore » February 6th, 2015, 1:54 pm

Do people actually learn each other's material that specifically?


Yes, the most worrying thing being that it's actually "the norm" rather than something exceptional.
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 2:06 pm

El Mystico wrote:I don't recall seeing Alex writing that his count could not be used without his permission. So I don't see why you felt the need to ask for it.
Already in early 90's there were those who said that...
A: That it is a practical impossibility to follow the same copyright rules that are established within related fields.
B: That my points were moot since I didn't follow them myself, while using things far outside what my points dealt with as examples.
There's an american idiom that goes "to put my money where my mouth is" and that is what I've done - both points A & B above have been refuted.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Bill Mullins » February 6th, 2015, 2:11 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:I look forward to reviews that describe the routine in enough detail to make clear exactly what is protectable. The plot is old (Malini did multiple selections) and is clearly public domain; sleights aren't protectable; and most people who would lay out this kind of money for a routine and then perform it would make their own patter up.

Not much left.

The thoughts go to Aesop's "The Fox and the Grapes".
I was a consultant to a TV magic show a few years ago. The director had just seen the clown Slava's snowstorm finale and was raving about how great it was, and then insisted that we should duplicate it for the TV show. But immediately he understood that neither I nor the performer had any interest in stealing someone else's work, the director began to describe how unoriginal and boring Slava's finale was -"It's just a simple wind machine, no one can have any particular rights to that!" Lots of disparaging comments on work he just seconds ago had been raving about, just to convince us it was all right to steal it (why he wanted us to perform something he described a lousy was never explained).

Yes, not much left. Unlikely it is any good. Since there can not be anything of interest for you in this release, the restrictions make no difference in your case.


I thought my question implied that I recognize that there can be and is original material that should belong the originator. (And I use "belong" meaning ethically, not legally.) I have no interest in stealing anyone's work, or seeing it done. But where you and I consistently disagree, and have done so many times on this forum, is that I think a magic creator's rights to a published work should be honored as a matter of custom, courtesy, and ethics, where you keep saying that the law requires it (I know of no court cases that support this assertion).

But specifically, my point stands. Multiple selection routines are quite common and quite old. Helder Guimarães thinks his great value beyond that which is commonly and freely available. As a matter of curiosity (not because I want to steal it, perform it, or deprive him of any rights), I wonder what is so special about it. And it's a question that likely could be answered by any moderately advanced magician who has seen him perform the routine. I haven't seen him work (I'd love to), so maybe a review would explain it.

There may be those who would by his book (and performance rights) without having an answer to that question. The thoughts go to köpa grisen i säcken.

(And "Snowstorm in China" effects were performed by Japanese magicians well over a century ago. Surely you could have met the director's desire for such an effect without using the clown's original contributions, whatever they were)

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 6th, 2015, 2:13 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I look forward to reviews that describe the routine in enough detail to make clear exactly what is protectable. The plot is old (Malini did multiple selections) and is clearly public domain; sleights aren't protectable; and most people who would lay out this kind of money for a routine and then perform it would make their own patter up.
Not much left.


Exactly.

As to the "legality" of the Crescendo Performance Rights Agreement, would not the whole agreement be null should this section be deemed to be false ...

ARTICLE 1 - WARRANTIES & REPRESENTATIONS

The AUTHOR hereby represents, warrants and agrees that:
1.1 He is the sole owner and author of the MAGIC PIECE, all of which is wholly original by him ...

To create a multiple selection routine (or anything for that matter) that "all of which is wholly original" is a remarkable achievement.

To do so would necessitate leaving out any and all of the wonderful sequences that have been developed and published by others since the inception of this effect.

If you were to construct a routine that leaves out the best that the literature has to offer, what would you have.

Well, something that is at least, "wholly original".

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 2:43 pm

I bought my original 1967 copy of Elmsley's 4 Card Trick ms. from Davenport's in about 1977. When I asked Alex to sign it for me when I first met him around 1980 I commented that I was probably one of a very small number of people who used his count who had actually paid him to do so (assuming he was still receiving royalties from the Inzani-Henley Magic Company who published it). He smiled his usual amused smile. He didn't strike me as the kind of man who worried too much about licensing. He was an inventor and tweaker, someone who was happy to publish and see his routines and ideas adopted by others. I can't imagine him ever seeking to limit what others did with his ideas, provided he was credited appropriately. Of course, he himself, a respecter of the published record, always scrupulously credited his own inspirations. The last page of the 4 Card Trick has an Acknowledgements paragraph which reads: 'The Ghost Count [as he called it] was devised by combining a put-back false count for more, invented by Eric de la Mare, with a push-off move of Edward Victor".

I'm prepared to bet he didn't ask de la Mare or Victor for permission to adapt their ideas. What's more, I see no reason why he should have. Giving credit to published sources should be sufficient.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 2:59 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:But specifically, my point stands. Multiple selection routines are quite common and quite old. Helder Guimarães thinks his great value beyond that which is commonly and freely available. As a matter of curiosity (not because I want to steal it, perform it, or deprive him of any rights), I wonder what is so special about it.

Most routines of this ilk are linear and sequential in structure. Any small attempt to make it non-linear would be groundbreaking.
For example, my own (unpublished) venture into this plot has this quirk: 9 cards are selected in rapid succession. Before the 9'th card is even returned to the deck, five of them are already loaded into impossible locations like inside my shoe, inside the marker used to sign the cards with, folded up and hanging from a string on the stage...etc. Once I figured out how to break the sequential structure, everything else fell into place by itself. If Helder have figured out another way to be non-linear... then there is likely nothing remotely similar out there. I have no idea, point is, it doesn't take very much at all to break completely new ground in this particular area.

(And "Snowstorm in China" effects were performed by Japanese magicians well over a century ago. Surely you could have met the director's desire for such an effect without using the clown's original contributions, whatever they were)

We had a snowstorm effect. It was Slava's original contribution the director tried to strongarm us to add, his finale to his evening show "Slava's Showshow". A smaller version of that finale can be seen 6 minutes into this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZga4nbatPc

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 3:24 pm

IanLand wrote:He didn't strike me as the kind of man who worried too much about licensing. He was an inventor and tweaker, someone who was happy to publish and see his routines and ideas adopted by others. I can't imagine him ever seeking to limit what others did with his ideas,

Yes, and that generosity means nothing to you? You feel no sense of respect or awe over those gifts? Seeing how you seem argue that such generosity should be taken for granted and be the base line, the ground level.
As you say, he was an inventor and for a while also a performer. But at a different era. Back then you could both share your material freely, and at the same time use it professionally in country after country for several years before it had to be replaced with new material. Today? A professional might for various reasons decide to share a professional routine, two weeks later someone might do it in a TV-show in some part of the world, and having it go viral the day after... with thousands of amateurs reverse engineering the video performance. It makes complete sense for a professional performer to control how his work is made public, and for the professionals interested in the material, it makes complete sense to honor those limitations. I would have no interest in spending a month rehearsing a new piece, just to have to scrap it because it has gone viral on Youtube.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 6th, 2015, 3:37 pm

Let me state unequivocally that, as one of the more active publishers and writers of magic books, the only artist whose work I have published who sought permission to perform a trick in a book was Michael Weber.

It is accepted as fact in our field that when something is published, other people will practice and perform the material. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. No need to ask permission; no need for further payment.

Do I make myself clear?

When you publish something you are, in that act, giving people permission to perform the material.

(And this is a great discussion, by the way.)
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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby Tom Stone » February 6th, 2015, 3:51 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Let me state unequivocally that, as one of the more active publishers and writers of magic books, the only artist whose work I have published who sought permission to perform a trick in a book was Michael Weber.

That was in 1991. There have been several releases since then with similar limitations. Theoretically, it is not impossible to think that there might be people whose whole library consist of material with various performance limitations, for whom it seems completely normal.
It is accepted as fact in our field that when something is published, other people will practice and perform the material. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

When did I accept that? Where is this amazing agreement documented? Which year was it decided that our work would be exempt from copyright? Do I know any of those who apparently have more rights to decide over my material than what I have? I do not remember being a part of any of these remarkable decisions.

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Re: Half Half Man ... Your Thoughts?

Postby IanLand » February 6th, 2015, 3:57 pm

Tom Stone wrote:Yes, and that generosity means nothing to you?


I really have no idea how you can conclude that from anything I have said.

To be clear: I am enormously grateful to all those who have published their inventions. They enrich magic by doing so. It's why I'm scrupulous in crediting.


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