Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby mrgoat » September 1st, 2014, 3:27 am

Rick Ruhl wrote:
But to make not only sexist comments


What comment was sexist?

Do you know what sexist means?

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby billmccloskey » September 1st, 2014, 10:52 am

"Both have made their mistakes and both deserve second chances"
"Yes ,by now we are A L L aware that Char has made some HUGE Stumbles , This is bound to happen as a newly Single woman ."

Man, you guys are crazy. :)

First, no one "deserves" a second chance. I have a one strike and you are out rule when it comes to ripping people off. Did she do something special to earn this "second chance"?

and newly single women do not, as a rule, "stumble" by stealing 10's of thousands of dollars from people.

Here is what she deserves: she deserves to make restitution, she deserves never to work in the magic field again, she deserves to suffer the consequences of harming other people. That is what anyone deserves who decides on a life of crime. period.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Tom Gilbert » September 1st, 2014, 12:16 pm

She certainly did burn some bridges with the illusion sales, that's for sure. But that Youtube promotional video really won't get many/any clients. Much less throwing the puppet guy in.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby mrgoat » September 1st, 2014, 12:29 pm

billmccloskey wrote:"Both have made their mistakes and both deserve second chances"
"Yes ,by now we are A L L aware that Char has made some HUGE Stumbles , This is bound to happen as a newly Single woman ."

Man, you guys are crazy. :)

First, no one "deserves" a second chance. I have a one strike and you are out rule when it comes to ripping people off. Did she do something special to earn this "second chance"?

and newly single women do not, as a rule, "stumble" by stealing 10's of thousands of dollars from people.

Here is what she deserves: she deserves to make restitution, she deserves never to work in the magic field again, she deserves to suffer the consequences of harming other people. That is what anyone deserves who decides on a life of crime. period.


I was so utterly shocked at the disgusting comment about single mothers I couldn't even type a response. I am glad someone did.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Rick Ruhl » September 1st, 2014, 1:04 pm

Hmmm..

Everyone who bought an illusion from Char ended up with it. No one lost any money or no one was charged with any crime or sent to court over it.

I know some people stepped in and helped, due to some issues which were out of her and Jonhs control, but in the end it was all resolved.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2014, 3:00 pm

And you know why those people got their illusions? Because Jonathan, at his own expense, went to Trinidad and got the illusions out of hock and then GAVE them to the people who paid for them. He got no money.

Charlotte sold illusions she did not have in her possession and kept the money.

Do you really want to get into that discussion?
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby NYCJoePItt » September 1st, 2014, 3:10 pm

I don't have any dogs in this fight either. I have seen several male magicians mishandle financial dealings with other magi as customers (over and over) and be forgiven. So Charlotte is not alone in this department.

I am most curious as to what Richard thinks of the video and why he posted it. I am not surprised at the reaction. In any divorce, friends go one way or the other. I've seen the loyalty, friendship, and blessing bestowed onto Mr. Pendragon on the forum. Personally, I don't know either of them and know nothing of their finances when they split.

I read all these comments before I looked at the video and was expecting a horror show. It was nowhere near as terrible as I was imagining. I have definitely seen much, much worst. I'm more of a constructive criticism type of person anyway. With the most love and respect, the one thing she must change is her first costume. It's really not appropriate. Other than that, I am available for consultation. :D

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2014, 3:50 pm

I just posted it because of my curiosity as to what the reaction would be.

It's pretty easy to see Jonathan performing now: he's on Masters of Illusion, works the Magic Castle and conventions regularly. It's not easy to see Charlotte performing, so the video seemed of interest.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Bill Mullins » September 1st, 2014, 5:01 pm

NYCJoePItt wrote: I've seen the loyalty, friendship, and blessing bestowed onto Mr. Pendragon on the forum.


Some of this is because Jonathan has always been approachable and friendly. Long before there was a Genii Forum, I would read with interest the postings of Utherswift on alt.magic. I got to see him at the Magic Castle (in the close-up room!) about 10-12 years ago, and had a very nice conversation after the show, and likewise at the Genii Bash he was accessible and easy to connect with. Jonathan has built up good will in the magic community in ways that Charlotte hasn't (at least, in my experience).

That doesn't make Charlotte a villain any more or less than Jonathan, but it does mean that folks might be more inclined to give Jonathan sympathy that they might not find for Charlotte.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby mrgoat » September 1st, 2014, 5:11 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
That doesn't make Charlotte a villain any more or less than Jonathan.


No, it is the scamming and theft that makes her a villain.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 1st, 2014, 5:28 pm

Let us not forget that, not long ago, Jonathan posted some ill-advised comments about his ex-wife and he was gleefully (and I think expectedly if not rightfully) attacked by several members of this site. We decided that his comments about Char (but not necessarily those about him) were such that we thought it would be best to delete the thread. We are all flawed in one way or another.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby baabaablacksheep » September 1st, 2014, 5:34 pm

I read the two threads that Tom Stone gave links to and at the end I really felt sorry for Jonathan Pendragon.

He was the only one who got screwed in the end (with the big deals, not the smaller dealings). It seems like the illusions were sold and bought without his knowledge. In the end Charlotte got the financial gain, the magician got the illusions and Jonathan got nothing.

He said in the final post that he was very sad to let the illusions go. If they were sold without his knowledge, I think the magician should have let him keep them if he could pay them the money they sent Charlotte. Maybe Jonathan did not have the thousands of dollars to pay the buying magician back. Maybe he offered the money and the magician said no. If he did offer to pay back the money so he could keep what was rightfully his and the magician did not let him have them, then that was not cool In My Opinion. But I do not know the particulars of what happened once the items were released in Trinidad. Maybe someday he will get them back. I hope so.

Jonathan Pendragon wrote:I felt an obligation, but it wasn't easy to hand over the broom harness and Fire Cage which I designed. I have tried help all when I can, even to the point of sending three of the few illusions I have left to Charlotte so that she can perform grand illusion in her own show. In the eyes of the law she is still my wife and while our divorce is in progress I will continue to remain civil. And when it's over I wish her the best in her career and new life as I make mine with my beloved West and our "Aussie" Lark.

Chip has shown himself to be a good, honest and fair man. I thank him for his patience as I worked to bring the illusions home. Please take care of my them, they have had a distinguished career.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Tom Stone » September 1st, 2014, 5:45 pm

...and then the followup of beginning to market his innovations under her name, without credits or permissions.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 5:51 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
That doesn't make Charlotte a villain any more or less than Jonathan.


No, it is the scamming and theft that makes her a villain.


Speaking of that, I saw a guy who says he originated the Tony Sagittarius character at a comedy club recently. He's touring the Canada/US comedy circuit for the next few months. Maybe you can track him down.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 5:54 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote: We decided that his comments about Char (but not necessarily those about him) were such that we thought it would be best to delete the thread.


I'm hoping you'll do the same thing here.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 5:55 pm

Tom Stone wrote:...and then the followup of beginning to market his innovations under her name, without credits or permissions.


Again...can you prove this?

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Tom Stone » September 1st, 2014, 6:26 pm

GlennWest wrote:
Tom Stone wrote:...and then the followup of beginning to market his innovations under her name, without credits or permissions.


Again...can you prove this?

I asked if you had any doubt on the honesty of those who got scammed. Reply to that first.

You remember they made a DVD set before all ruckus? They described the origin of several items there, in agreement. Look it up.
The ads can still be found. No credit is named there. And, according to the staff at Murphy's, no crediting is inside the instructions either.
Permission? Jonathan's wife posted here that they had contacted lawyers regarding the items. Pretty clear that no permission had been granted.

Do you have any reason to doubt any of this?

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 6:32 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
GlennWest wrote:
Tom Stone wrote:...and then the followup of beginning to market his innovations under her name, without credits or permissions.


Again...can you prove this?

I asked if you had any doubt on the honesty of those who got scammed. Reply to that first.

You remember they made a DVD set before all ruckus? They described the origin of several items there, in agreement. Look it up.
The ads can still be found. No credit is named there. And, according to the staff at Murphy's, no crediting is inside the instructions either.
Permission? Jonathan's wife posted here that they had contacted lawyers regarding the items. Pretty clear that no permission had been granted.

Do you have any reason to doubt any of this?


What I hear you saying is that you are unable to prove your accusations.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Tom Stone » September 1st, 2014, 6:42 pm

Firstly, you need to see a doctor and check your ears.
Secondly, I am not making an accusation, I am stating facts.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 6:48 pm

Tom Stone wrote:Firstly, you need to see a doctor and check your ears.
Secondly, I am not making an accusation, I am stating facts.


We get it. You can't prove that what you are saying is true. And we understand that you are embarrassed to be called out on it, so you respond with an emotional attack. Perfectly predictable internet behavior.

Can you prove that having a doctor check my ears will be helpful?

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby MManchester » September 1st, 2014, 7:17 pm

GlennWest, you don't get it. I am not interested in a fight, but Tom's point is very reasonable and clear. Trying to make your lack of response his fault is ridiculous. You don't speak for others on the forum and you're making a fool of yourself.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Rick Ruhl » September 1st, 2014, 7:18 pm

Until anything is proved in a court of law, the correct word is 'alleged' act. Any other word can be potentially libelous to the poster.

There are two sides to every story, and what lies in the middle is the real truth.

I believe, this is the case here.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 7:26 pm

Rick Ruhl wrote:Until anything is proved in a court of law, the correct word is 'alleged' act. Any other word can be potentially libelous to the poster.

There are two sides to every story, and what lies in the middle is the real truth.

I believe, this is the case here.


Well said.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2014, 7:44 pm

Let me gently guide you all back to the subject of this thread, which is a video on YouTube. Any other comments following this post that do not address the video will be deleted.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 7:49 pm

I'd like to request that Brad Henderson jump in with his comments on the video. He's usually pretty good about keeping us all on topic.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2014, 8:15 pm

Brad is on vacation from the Forum for a while.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby GlennWest » September 1st, 2014, 8:30 pm

That's a shame.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby mrgoat » September 2nd, 2014, 8:12 am

GlennWest wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
That doesn't make Charlotte a villain any more or less than Jonathan.


No, it is the scamming and theft that makes her a villain.


Speaking of that, I saw a guy who says he originated the Tony Sagittarius character at a comedy club recently. He's touring the Canada/US comedy circuit for the next few months. Maybe you can track him down.


Really Glenn?

Can you prove that?

No, didn't think so.

I have the correspondence with my Uncle, who created the character with me, going back over ten years. The name was something created in 1992 during a college show. Again, this can be proved.

You can't troll a troll, love.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby AJM » September 2nd, 2014, 8:50 am

What about my Geoff Gemini act that I toured extensively in Australia to much acclaim.

I'm very big Down Under you know.....

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby John Tudor » September 2nd, 2014, 9:43 am

As for the video, to me it resembles a stock footage clip of a generic female magician, like might be used in a commercial or video, etc. Just my thoughts...
"Ars longa, vita brevis." (Life is short, the art so long to learn) -Hippocrates

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby observer » September 2nd, 2014, 12:23 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Let me gently guide you all back to the subject of this thread, which is a video on YouTube. Any other comments following this post that do not address the video will be deleted.



Speaking as a layman, with many years' experience of not being a magician, I saw a box with a trapdoor in the top, and a ball hanging from a piece of string.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Brad Jeffers » September 2nd, 2014, 1:41 pm

Speaking as a layman, with many years' experience of not being a magician, I saw a box with a trapdoor in the top


When you watch this performance, do you also see a box with a trapdoor in the top?
Just curious.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby billmccloskey » September 2nd, 2014, 1:56 pm

"box with a trapdoor in the top,"

The reason you see the trapdoor is that she actually looks at her feet as she steps around it when she get on the box. She is clearly stepping around something when she gets on it, as if she is trying to avoid the trap door.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby observer » September 2nd, 2014, 2:29 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Speaking as a layman, with many years' experience of not being a magician, I saw a box with a trapdoor in the top


When you watch this performance, do you also see a box with a trapdoor in the top?
Just curious.



No. When I watch that performance, I see an amazing magical transformation.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Tom Moore » September 2nd, 2014, 2:38 pm

Actually if you look at most performances of it she's looking down at where she's treading - the difference in this performance (as opposed to the normal 2 person routines) is that the audience focus isn't constantly being pulled by two different people (so you're not tracking any one person as closely as you are in the solo performance) and also because in the solo version literally every movement on the stage is telegraphing the route she must have taken. Conversely in the double version J's appearance immediately breaks the natural desire to look for her vanish route and at that exact moment he also rips away the cloth so that it DOESN'T fall straight down thus eliminating all visual clues as to possible routes and speed of gravity.

In short the solos version flags up a route and shows you how quickly objects can move under gravity whilst also leaving only one explanation open; the duo version deliberately removes every visual clue to the path and has some deliberate distractions in it to break the audience's natural chain of critical thought just long enough to stop them from making the correct assumption.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Andres Reynoso » September 2nd, 2014, 3:03 pm

I showed the video to a friend not related with magic. He doesn't know who are Jonathan, Charlotte or The Pendragons. He neither knows about floating balls, Sub Trunks or dancing canes.

His comments were: It's a bad promo video, it seems low budget and unprofessional, doesn't convince to contract the show even when photos are shown to prove she have worked for presidents. If she has worked for important person, the video must transmit quality.
She steps over the trunk oddly, obviously there is a trap door. The ball swings in a thread and the form she moves her finger with the cane tells she is manipulating something, is not visible what thing, but her fingers are connected with the cane someway.
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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 2nd, 2014, 3:08 pm

I have tried to stay out of this because I am far better acquainted with Jonathan than I am with Charlotte, so I recognize—and know others will know it too—that there will be a built-in bias. But, for what it’s worth, here are my thoughts on Char’s video.

It reminds me of the so many individuals out there in magic who seem to believe that the creation, staging, and performance of stage illusion is somehow easy.

This is NOT a gender issue because there are far more men out there making this same mistake; that’s just the fact of numbers. There are more bad male magicians than females because there are more men in magic: it’s a numbers deal.

Now, given her experience I cannot say why this impression is coming across to me. After all, I know that she knows better. But I can suppose, based on the fact that she was the assistant—and a really good one (if not among the best)—and her area of expertise is from that point of view.

The Pendragons were a team. A team should be made up of individuals with different skillsets. That is what makes a great team successful—the individual parts making up a perfect whole. As in baseball, not everyone gets to touch the ball all the time, but their role is no less diminished.

I suspect that Charlotte is learning her new role. It took years for Jonathan to reach the level he now enjoys. Even with her experience in working with him, I do not believe Charlotte will be able to get there too much quicker.

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Postby Tom Pilling » September 2nd, 2014, 9:13 pm

In honour of RK's ruling:

The video comes across badly, to me. It looks like a magician's assistant without the magician. Imagine going to do a gig and getting food poisoning. Your slightly inept assistant/roady takes control and saves the day, by dint of personal courage in the face of disaster, whilst you retch in the wings. Keep that image in your mind, for that is what this video brought to my mind.

The 'magical' aspect is non-existent. I could say much on why that is, but it would be gratuitous: other people have already covered that ground well enough.

Sex is key here. Ms Pendragon is trying to use sex to sell. Looking at the historic clips of The Pendragons, you can see the classic, and to my mind awful, ruse of killing time during the actual dirty work, by a 'sexy' assistant showing how far she can spread her legs in a variety of different poses. That's showbiz, I'm used to it.

However, for those of us blessed with a sex life, it isn't really very sexy. Even without a sex life, is it sexy? I guess not that much.

There's nothing here to go on. The fact that Randy and the Ragrunts were more coherent as an act, leaves me feeling worried for whoever paid for this promo.

That's the honest truth.

And by the way....

To the person who thinks that 'there's two sides to every story and the truth is in the middle'? That's poor reasoning. The 'middle ground' is not always the truth. Get over it.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby erdnasephile » September 2nd, 2014, 11:20 pm

Since magicians are presumably not Ms. Pendragon's main target audience, IMHO, it probably doesn't matter much what we think of the video. The acid test is what the potential paying public thinks.

With that in mind, I shared the video with a female layperson who had seen the Pendragons perform together years ago. I showed her the video without comment, and asked her what she thought.

Her comments on the video were: "She's really not doing anything tricky."; "The phony lips on the puppet guy were funny."; "There's nothing original here.", and "She's trying to be young, but she's not." Summary comment: "It's OK."

When I asked if she would be willing to pay to see this show, her answer was: "Probably not."
Last edited by erdnasephile on September 3rd, 2014, 7:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Charlotte Pendragon's World of Illusion

Postby MManchester » September 2nd, 2014, 11:58 pm

Perhaps calling it her World of Illusion was a poor choice. Looks more like a small bedroom of illusion. She's setting people up for disappointment.
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