Be Amazed Kickstarter To Preserve Magic Films

[MJLauck]

If you haven't seen it yet, Be Amazed TV (the online all-magic channel) has launched a Kickstarter to raise the money necessary to buy the equipment necessary to preserve old magic films and convert them to digital formats. If you read the old magazines, you will often see references to clubs shooting home movies or certain magicians (such as Dell O'Dell) making films of other performers. Unfortunately, the film will eventually degrade to the point it is unwatchable if conservation efforts are not undertaken.

You can visit the Kickstarter page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1377215433/be-amazed-tv-help-to-restore-historical-magic-foot?ref=discovery) to learn more or listen to Ariann Black talk about the need for conservation and what Be Amazed plans to with the footage in her recent ITricks podcast interview (http://itricks.com/news/2014/07/ariann-black-magic-week-in-review/).

Please accept my apologies for the link to the iTricks podcast; I am not trying to promote the show. It is just a good way to learn about the project and it is something I strongly support!

[Chris Aguilar]

While the project sounds very worthwhile, there's no mention (that I see) on their site concerning how they intend to deal with copyrighted film. I get the impression that not all of the film they intend to save is necessarily in the public domain.

[Jonathan Townsend]

While the project sounds very worthwhile, there's no mention (that I see) on their site concerning how they intend to deal with copyrighted film. I get the impression that not all of the film they intend to save is necessarily in the public domain.

You'd think the "let's get that slydini video" bandwagon would take something like this approach to make pay for the rights to what they want.

[lybrary]

I have been down that road before. I also have access to all machinery to convert pretty much any analog format (film/sound/print) to digital format. However, the copyright issues, as Chris points out, are thorny. And that is really the sticking point. The machinery to digitize is trivial. It exists, can be bought or rented, and a number of services exist that provide such conversions.

If a magician was recorded in a club meeting, or some lecture in a conference hall, you need an explicit permission of anybody shown in the recording - that means not just the performer, but translator, MC, stage hands, etc. Typically clubs do not have such documentation. The permissions must state not only the fact that the recording was done with permission, but that a subsequent release to the public or as product is granted.

Failing such documentation you need to track down every person visible in the recording and get his or her permission or deal with the estate, heirs, etc. I have tried to do that with footage shot for European TV. In some cases I was successful doing that, in others I was not, because it is often a long process to track down estates and heirs. Often the property rights are not clear. Say you have two children without anyone explicitly inheriting these rights. That means both have shared rights. If one is ok the other not you can't proceed. Multiply that with the number of people shown in the footage. It often ends in a situation where you cannot proceed any further. The matter is stuck.

I am clearing copyrights for 15 years. It is part of my business. I have hired lawyers, private eyes, and other investigators and helping hands. You don't need to worry about the machines. Worry about who does all the copyright investigation, negotiating, and tracking down of people. Good luck.

[MJLauck]

I am not affiliated with Be Amazed, so I can not answer all of these questions. I do know though, that home movies (many of these works may fall under that category) have a different set of rules than other movies and that they are paying royalties for many of these films. I would suggest you listen to Ariann on the podcast I listed above or contact her directly (her contact information is on BeAmazed.TV).

[Tom Moore]

The copyright / rights issues for "home movies" are different.... but only as long as they're being used as home movies (ie in the home, shown to a few close friends) as soon as you whack them up on a website / movie screen and start inviting (or even charging) complete strangers to access them they cease to be home-movies and all the more stringent copyright requirements kick in. Multiply that complexity by the fact that every country in the world has different laws about this and if your website is accessible in that country then you have to obey their laws too and suddenly you can see why Youtube / Vimeo et al have entire buildings full of people who deal with nothing but copyright for videos of cat's sneezing.

This site is a great idea, heck i've got a load of videos and footage that i'd probably want to see on there but until they have the proper legal frameworks and process's in place I simply couldn't release any footage to them. Their business model is also somewhat backwards - you never EVER bring conversion or editing in-house; it's sub-contracted out to dedicated editing or converting specialists who will always have millions of dollars of the latest specialist equipment at their disposal and the skills you only get from years of experience at digitising old footage. There's 101 completely different film / video formats; $50k wouldn't buy you pro-grade conversion equipment for more than one or two of them.

Great idea but the business model has way too many holes in its current form

[MJLauck]

And yet preservation has to start somewhere, even if it is running as much old film as possible through whatever the currently EPA approved equivalent of Renovex is...

How many films have been lost to time? How many Super 8 and 16mm reels are already in landfills and how many others are getting too brittle to run? How many great television performances are already gone ? The bulk of the DuMont Network kinescopes (including real cultural treasures such as the first American television show hosted by an African American woman and the first show starring an Asian American woman) is on the ocean floor. Something like 500 of their 20,000 episodes remain and look at what the BBC did to its library years ago.

It has to start somewhere. Personally, I'd rather see legal fights over viable footage than everyone quite sure that copyright was never violated and the film turning into flecks of ammonia scented confetti!

[Bill Mullins]

Personally, I'd rather see legal fights over viable footage than everyone quite sure that copyright was never violated and the film turning into flecks of ammonia scented confetti!

Easy for you to say when you're not the one having to hire an attorney at $200-300 an hour to do battle in the legal fight . . .

[Jonathan Townsend]

...It has to start somewhere. Personally, I'd ...

Post what's yours on YouTube if you wish - and perhaps by your example others may reconsider their own position on what to do with their property.

[Tom Moore]

There's 2 completely different here - properly archiving/preserving old media footage and monetising/exploiting old media footage.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone properly converting/digitising/restoring old footage (though note i say "properly" - it's a very technical process that needs skilled experts not a magician with a consumer level converter trying their best in between doing regular gigs) and to be honest I think you'll struggle to find any copyright holders who would actively object to or sue you for converting and saving lost footage. If this project was "we found a basement full of rare magic film and desperately need to raise $50k to send it to the best film preservers in the country to get it saved before it's lost forever" then I and plenty of others would jump on board to help. I do believe the Magic Castle has a not insignificant library of "saved" footage stashed away somewhere, there are also plenty of companies and organisations who will professionally save / digitise footage for surprisingly little cost because occasionally they come across missing episodes of tv shows which networks pay them a finders fee for.

The problem that I (as a rights holder) and others will have is that this ISN'T an entirely philanthropic venture by a recognised charity or educational establishment, this is a COMMERCIAL venture which has been set up to derive revue by showing/licensing other people's copy-written works. If they only stick to showing completely copyright expired stuff and content that has been specifically gifted to them for commercial exploitation copy-right free then they'll probably only have a $10,000/year legal bill and a viable (though rather dull) service. Persuading people to pay for it will be difficult when there's already plenty of completely free ways to access this kind of material though....
If they want it to be a "magic tv channel" (and in the interviews and discussions so far there's a lot of talk about trying to get hold of all sorts of "modern" magic shows which definitely won't be copyright-free) then there's some significant costs involved in getting the shows initially and a minefield of copyright issues and rights-clearance issues (and costs) involved in each and every episode, issues which will be different for EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY this website is viewed in.

Go Google the problems Paul Daniels or Simon Drake have had - neither of them can get permission to exploit footage from their own TV shows, even the scenes in which just they appear, because there's a whole heap of licensing and copyright issues to be dealt with. Sure it might only be Paul visible on camera; but he's wearing a costume designed by a costume designer, with background music by a composer & musicians with their own world of copyright and licensing rules, standing in front of a set designed by a set designer, using a member of the public who only signed a broadcast waver for BBC first-run transmission, performing a trick who's inventor will have a copyright claim, choreographed by a magic advisor team most of whom are now dead so would have to get permission from a dozen relatives..... Even with their time, resources and customer base neither Simon nor Paul could even begin to unpick the licensing issues required just to be able to use the footage themselves.

As i said before, lovely idea but the core business model has a lot of holes in it.

[lybrary]

Tom is correct. I have dealt with broadcasting corporations before. I specifically worked with the BBC, ZDF, BR and ORF, to license magic footage. I was only successful in a very limited number of cases. See for example my offering of a magic show from the ORF http://www.lybrary.com/orf-m-224383.html

One of the problems is that for many show contracts they did not anticipate the use online (streaming/downloading). That means while the broadcasting corporations might have all the licenses to broadcast these shows, they often do not have the rights to exploit them online or digitally. Going back to get those permissions is essentially impossible.

Then there are those stations like the BBC, who categorically deny broader access to their footage in complete form. You can license small snippets of BBC footage and embed those in larger amounts of contents, but the BBC footage can only be 5% of the total, as one limitation. This means you could never show a complete Paul Daniels show. At the most you could license a short snippet and then use it as part of a larger collage of footage from many other stations.

And then when you have passed all these hurdles you will probably run into pricing problems. For example the ZDF asked me for $2000/minute of footage. I don't know about beamazed.tv but I think this type of price pretty much rules out to have it licensed for the magic market. A 60 minute show would cost you a cool $120k. One would need literally millions of viewers to make this work financially.

But maybe beamazed.tv has deep contacts into broadcasting stations, good friends high up who are willing to give access or donate the footage.

[mrgoat]

Glad to see people have posted about Daniels not owning the copyright to the tv shows he was in after the debacle recently when someone was selling pirate copies here and I was chastised pointing this out.

[Jonathan Townsend]

The arguments over copyright get better or more complicated depending...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/n ... ns-it.html

[MJLauck]

Has anyone actually contacted Be Amazed about any of this or is everyone making assumptions?

When I spoke with Ariann, her prime interest seemed to be old film footage owned by performers. She wanted to preserve it before it degraded and pay royalties to the owners. All this talk about television shows might be a bit misguided.

[Tom Moore]

The service is expected to grow to more than 2,500 hours of magic film, television, documentary and live stage content, and is expected to be available in 6 major languages.

From their website

Be Amazed has amassed one of the largest magic film, television and stage performance video libraries in the world,

From their kickstarter

For a service that's you seem to think is only about saving home movies they talk an awful lot about (and name drop) saving TV shows. On your Itricks podcast Arian spends a lot of time talking about TV shows (trying to find the David Nixon tv shows for example) and references all the other traditional magic TV channels and magic tv specials.

As i keep saying, lovely idea but the more i look at it the less clue it seems they have about the legal implications to what they're doing or the cost. A successful Kickstarter fund (or startup business venture) should have answered these fairly basic questions right from the outset because they are the key obsticals this sort of business venture is going to have to overcome. At present they're simply saying "give us $50k and we'll try and maybe do something, possibly, but we're not sure what or whether it's even legal" and that's not a supportable proposition.

[mrgoat]

I'm fairly sure it's against Kickstarter's ToS to raise money for a piracy site.

[Ariann Black]

Hello!
I understand your concerns with copyrights for television and the who owns what copyrights for home video. Networks are starting to see that soon all television will be streaming and that all licensing will have to change. But your right a lot of the older shows did not include this clause in their contracts when the shows were originally created. Just like there were no clauses in those same contracts to reproduce as a DVD and sold, yet that issue has been dealt with and you see old television shows sold in box sets everywhere. Things change over time and as the need arises. This is where Be Amazed Magic Television is right now, we are walking that fine line between what was and what soon will be. We have found some networks and countries are far more forward thinking with their programming than others and willing to work with small companies like myself specially when it comes to shows they have had sitting for a long time not making any money for them. There are a lot of contracts to go through to have just one television show on the Magic Channel.

The Home videos are a different story and the one person is correct. We have to track down the performer, or a living family member to acquire permission to air the footage. Some family members care about keeping the magicians performance alive, others don't care, and some are only interested in money. Either way we spend the time and money to track them down and deal with each and every person. It is a huge expense, but one we hope will be worth it.

As for the KickStarter campaign? The $50,000 barely begins to cover costs for the restoration of any footage. The 9 hours of Houdini footage we recently acquired is falling apart and has to be restored from scratch. No it's not something I can do myself and has to be sent out to professionals. There are something's that Be Amazed can do in-house, but a lot of the really old restoration must be done by professionals and it is a lot more expensive than what we are asking for on KickStarter. BUT we thought we would put it up there to help raise awareness to the plight of this footage. The more people know about it the more they might care about it. Be Amazed thought it would be a fun way to let people become involved and feel like they were part of something bigger.

Ariann

[mrgoat]

Hello!
I understand your concerns with copyrights for television and the who owns what copyrights for home video.

And you don't own it. Nor do I think you even vaguely understand it.

But your right a lot of the older shows did not include this clause in their contracts when the shows were originally created. Just like there were no clauses in those same contracts to reproduce as a DVD and sold, yet that issue has been dealt with and you see old television shows sold in box sets everywhere.

Not old magic shows. I can't think of any old magic TV shows available on DVD.

Things change over time and as the need arises. This is where Be Amazed Magic Television is right now, we are walking that fine line between what was and what soon will be.

Or the fine line between illegal and legal, some might say.

We have found some networks and countries are far more forward thinking with their programming than others and willing to work with small companies like myself specially when it comes to shows they have had sitting for a long time not making any money for them. There are a lot of contracts to go through to have just one television show on the Magic Channel.

List them. I find it VERY hard to believe things like David Nixon, Paul Daniels, Doug Henning, etc etc etc are all suddenly agreeing with a no name kickstarted when proper companies have totally failed to agree on this. If you have, I'd love to be corrected.

The Home videos are a different story and the one person is correct. We have to track down the performer, or a living family member to acquire permission to air the footage.

And EVERY single person in the video.

You don't seem to understand this.

Be Amazed thought it would be a fun way to let people become involved and feel like they were part of something bigger.

Ariann

I don't think taking money from people to commit copyright infringement is "fun".

Welcome to the forum. I look forward to seeing proof of you doing something that isn't breaking the law!

[GlennWest]

I can't think of any old magic TV shows available on DVD.

http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Ranch-Set-D ... B008Z24D0I

[mrgoat]

I can't think of any old magic TV shows available on DVD.

http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Ranch-Set-D ... B008Z24D0I

OK. I alter my sentence:

"I can't think of any old magic shows available on DVD aside from Magic Ranch."

There may well be a couple of others. But hardly any.

But the point is, if massive, experienced, professionals with great contacts cannot get the rights, I have no idea how an unknown with a kickstarter thinks they can.

I'd genuinely LOVE to be proven wrong. I'd pay very good money to see legal copies of Daniels old shows, David Nixon, Stuff The White Rabbit, unabridged Secret Cabaret etc etc.

But, as I haven't so far, I can't see how a $50k kickstarter will pull it off.

I fear anyone donating money to this may as well just set fire to their cash.

[GlennWest]

http://www.markwilsonmagic.com/magic-circus-dvds.html

http://www.markwilsonmagic.com/allakazam-dvds.html

[mrgoat]

http://www.markwilsonmagic.com/magic-circus-dvds.html

http://www.markwilsonmagic.com/allakazam-dvds.html

Sorry Mr West, I clearly should have bolded this part:

"There may well be a couple of others. But hardly any. "

Or maybe used a large print font?

[Bill Mullins]

And there's more:

http://miraclefactory.net/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_19&products_id=9

http://miraclefactory.net/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_19&products_id=17

http://miraclefactory.net/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_19&products_id=21

Bill McIlhany has managed to clear a good bit of stuff.

[MJLauck]

Mr Goat,

I have a tangential question for you: are you able to access the streaming media services Netflix or Hulu in the UK (I assume you are in the UK)? In case you are not familiar with them, each is a pay service that allows users to stream movies, television and original content to computers, mobile devices and even televisions. In the United States, the BBC has a large presence on Hulu. I can stream about any Doctor Who that is available on DVD, for example, as well as Top Gear, Coronation Street and much, much more. No old episodes of David Nixon or Paul Daniels, but I can finally catch the entire run of Not Going Out and revisit The Young Ones. Is it possible that the BBC is a bit more relaxed with content in the States as Hulu and Netflix (or, now, Be Amazed) are not competing with BBC's streaming service? If Hulu is available in the UK, does it have a great deal of BBC content?

Speaking of Doctor Who, the BBC recently signed a deal to allow the original series to be broadcast in the US again on a very minor broadcast network called Retro TV (it has less than 100 affiliate stations across the US and some States do not even have a single Retro station).

[Brad Jeffers]

The 9 hours of Houdini footage we recently acquired is falling apart and has to be restored from scratch.

Nine hours of never before seen footage of Houdini. That is something to Be Amazed about!

I can think of a couple of Houdiniphiles who might be willing to foot the bill for that particular restoration, just to be able to see it.

[Brad Jeffers]

And if by chance you have THIS FILM , I will pay all costs to have it restored, if I may have a copy.

[mrgoat]

Mr Goat,

I have a tangential question for you: are you able to access the streaming media services Netflix or Hulu in the UK (I assume you are in the UK)? In case you are not familiar with them, each is a pay service that allows users to stream movies, television and original content to computers, mobile devices and even televisions. In the United States, the BBC has a large presence on Hulu. I can stream about any Doctor Who that is available on DVD, for example, as well as Top Gear, Coronation Street and much, much more. No old episodes of David Nixon or Paul Daniels, but I can finally catch the entire run of Not Going Out and revisit The Young Ones. Is it possible that the BBC is a bit more relaxed with content in the States as Hulu and Netflix (or, now, Be Amazed) are not competing with BBC's streaming service? If Hulu is available in the UK, does it have a great deal of BBC content?
.

BBC Worldwide is the commercial arm of the BBC. The BBC is funded by license payers here in the UK. It is a very weird set up for Americans. Worldwide is essentially a different company.

Yes, of course I've heard of netflix etc. I subscribe. The amount of BBC content on there is smaller than BBC Worldwide allow to be filmed because they are making money from it.

Hulu is not available in the UK AFAIK.

BBC iPlayer, the free streaming service, has limited content and certainly not the entire back catalogue. It initially only allowed catch up viewing from the previous 7 days, now has some stuff available later than that.

HTH.

[Tom Moore]

Hulu is not available in the uk (or indeed anywhere outside of the USA) but every country has an equivalent system operated by various different broadcaster - interesting to note that they are rarely available to stream outside of a specific country precisely because of the copyright complications of licensing material for different legal jurisdictions.

Even the "international" services like netflix / amazon / lovefilm aren't really international and have a completely different line-up and different contracts negotiated for different countries because rights/copyright is so territorial. Its only with the recent exclusives (house of card, orange is the new black, etc) that they have been able to release shows simultaneously across the planet and that's only because right from the very start of contract negotiations they asked for global rights.

The idea of beamazed.tv is a great one, but at it heart are some fundamental problems that massive corporations, millionaires and rights holders are all struggling to get to grips with. If beamazed.tv is to stand any chance or thriving (or even surviving) then it has to answer the question as to how it's going to overcome (or even just fund) these complicated legal issues. Yes there is a change coming in the way TV and media archives are handled and exploited; whilst doors are opening and costs are tumbling it's still a very long way away from the busines model they're currently espousing; and they're entering a market in which apple / youtube / netflix and a dozen other companies are in control of and who all have much deeper pockets and a much greater head start. The important question is what or how do beamazed.tv propose to do to actively overcome the problems and complications, beyond just sort of hoping that maybe the entire media industry will change to a business model that will support them?

[Roger M.]

So because all these big corporations can't make something happen, nobody can?

How about those small companies out there that go on to change and dominate their market around the globe?

Ever hear of GoPro cameras? ... sure you have ... 10 years ago Nick Woodman was a guy driving up and down the California coast selling bead belts and cameras that strap to your wrist off the back of his VW Camper Bus ... and now he's a billionaire that absolutely controls and dominates the market he's in, and whose company invents brand new markets almost monthly.

He refused to listen to folks saying that he'd never succeed against Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc, because he didn't see himself as selling cameras, he was selling the idea of filming yourself, of aiming the camera back at your own face. Seems simple, but nobody was doing it and he literally changed the way the world thought about action video and the equipment required to film it.

There are lots more examples out there of similar "small guy" changes the entire dynamic of a specific marketplace, and often proceed to dominate it. Google, Apple, Facebook, etc. All were started by guys in garages or dorm rooms eating pizza and not doing their laundry.

Go for it beamazed.tv - and good-luck on your project. There will always be naysayers ... listen to what they have to say in case there is any truth contained within their statements (and there most often is), but press on with your project regardless.
Your comments indicate that you do understand the principals behind legal ownership.

To date however, you've not yet made the specific details clear to your potential investors as to how you will acquire the associated rights to the various film and video.
Be aware that you will (at some point) have to address all of these questions in precise detail, as Kickstarter investors are notoriously inquisitive as to how well you've thought through your project.
As the project manager, the onus is on you to provide all project related details as requested.

[Roger M.]

That story utterly irrelevant to this conversation.

[Tom Moore]

I've never said it can't be done or shouldn't be done and you are talking to someone who's basically built his entire career on being the little guy/outsider who turns up and shakes things up so your point is rather moot.

But having big dreams and ideas doesn't make really fundamental problems go away, problems that we've already established can't be made to go away with mountains of cash, thousands of staff or government intervention (since these are the methods everyone else is using and not succeeding with) so for the core idea of beamazed.tv to actually go anywhere they must have something earth-shattering & game-changing..... before I part with my cash I'd just like a hint that they actually grasp what the problem is and that they do actually have some great new way of dealing with the problem. So far all we've got is a lot of incredibly generic concepts which suggest they don't really even understand the initial problems of media licensing or copyright, no viable revenue stream ($10/year subscription for a streaming video service that also has to fund restoration & all their other service ideas is a myth, the ultimate cost to provide such a service is going to be 6-7 times that level just to provide the streaming service)and a kickstarter/fundraising campaign that they've already admitted is a bit misleading as it's raising a sum of money that's for no specific purpose and is for a figure they seem to have picked out of the air at random.

It's not filling me full of confidence....

[MManchester]

Roger, one of the forum's most knowledgeable and esteemed contributors felt it was relevant when he posted a link to a similar story on August 6. Alex's comment is an unnecessary duplication, but he's not the only one to fail to give full attention to all the comments in this thread.

[Roger M.]

I don't disagree with anything you've posted Tom.

Although I would encourage any Kickstarter project to move forward through the hurdles put up in front of them, I will certainly concede that there is nowhere near enough information contained on their Kickstarter page to generate a successful Kickstarter project.
Kickstarter projects usually succeed by offering too much information as opposed to "just enough" to make a point.

I would also observe that many (if not all) of the awards being offered could raise a discussion highlighting the fact that it is most definitely debatable whether the items being awarded even belong to the project managers currently such that they're legally in a position to actually give them away.

Although the project may have definite value, and may be planning on working with an alternative paradigm (as yet not made clear), I believe the level and rate of Kickstarter contributions currently reflects the lack of information and detail.

In other words, the system is working as it should.

These folks have more work to do, and in fact may have to go through more than one Kickstarter project such that they're actually prepared to answer all questions in much more detail before they see the level of financial support required to move their project forward.
Their end game may not have to change at all, but details of the road they plan on taking to get there will have to change substantially.

All that said, I encourage them to move forward with what will likely be a major revamping of their project, and perhaps with another one (or two, or three) Kickstarter projects down the road we'll see a level and rate of contribution that might indicate the seeds of a successful project.

[Gordon Meyer]

beamazed.tv wants only $10 a year for access to their archives. I'll say that again, ten dollars for a whole year! For 2,500 videos in 6 major languages. It occurs to me that raising the price might be something to consider if they are cash-poor.

[JohnCox]

How much Houdini footage is here exactly? I'd like to help promote your Kickstarter on my blog, but I'd like to be able to communicate exactly what kind of Houdini footage we are talking about. But this sounds exciting. Thanks.

You can contact me privately if you like:
http://www.wildabouthoudini.com/p/contact_6512.html

[Richard Hatch]

Ariann Black posted this yesterday on her facebook page:
"As of August 2014, Johnny Thompson and I, Ariann Black, are no longer involved with Be Amazed Magic Television aka Be Amazed TV, including its Kickstarter funding campaign." When asked what happened in the comments, she responded: "We did not like the direction the company was going."
Don't think they'll get their $50K from kickstarter...

[Tom Moore]

This just raises more questions than it answers.....