Do people still wear watches?

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Bryan Miles
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Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bryan Miles » June 15th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Rumour has it that you better WATCH out for something new coming to the magic community :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzQaIwpL2yo

Doomo
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Doomo » June 15th, 2014, 5:20 pm

Lets see... Flash paper? Seen it... Watch steals... Seen it...
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.

www.rfaproductions.com

Bryan Miles
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bryan Miles » June 16th, 2014, 3:24 am

Doomo wrote:Lets see... Flash paper? Seen it... Watch steals... Seen it...


:mrgreen:

Bryan Miles
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bryan Miles » June 18th, 2014, 10:29 am

little more info here:

http://jacqueslesueur.com/magic/

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Gordon Meyer
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Gordon Meyer » June 19th, 2014, 4:15 pm

Some people suspect that magicians are jerks. Stealing their watch removes all doubt.

Doomo
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Doomo » June 19th, 2014, 5:20 pm

Ok... My bad.. A watch steal. Flashpaper...A lighter... ... AND a video...! That made all the difference...
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.



www.rfaproductions.com

Bryan Miles
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bryan Miles » June 23rd, 2014, 1:24 am


Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2014, 8:09 am

Not gonna condone grabbing for someone's [censored] or patek or lecoultre ... maybe okay with timex/fosils in the mall?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

brianarudolph
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 23rd, 2014, 8:22 am

This touched a bit of a nerve with me, so my apologies for the rant about to be typed. I mean no disrespect to Mr. Miles or his forthcoming release. These are only my personal opinions, but If I saw this effect presented by a magician live, it would make me want to reach for my wallet immediately. But not to buy the effect.

Watch steals can be entertaining and instructional, but unless you're in the same class as Apollo Robbins (and have the same class as Apollo Robbins), I would hesitate to include one in a magic act. Audience members raise their defenses enough as it is when someone approaches them during a show (let alone in a small group or 1-on-1) as a magician; I don't need them thinking they need to protect themselves from me.

It's one thing to fool them with cards, coins, billiard balls and big boxes with buzz saws - but it's a different beast entirely when you fool them personally, and by that I mean fool them by invading their personal space and using their personal effects.

For me, it's all about how I present myself. In my mind (limited as that is) I can either present myself as a magician or a pickpocket. But I cannot and do not want to present myself as both.

To me, someone presenting themselves as a pickpocket can incorporate all sorts of magic elements into their act and the audience will not consider the "magic" parts to be magic, but rather just further evidence of the pickpocket's skill. They leave the show entertained after having seen a professional pickpocket. Very few will make the leap to decide that they actually just saw a "magician."

Compare that to someone who presents themselves as a magician and then part way through the act invites a spectator on stage and launches into a pickpocketing routine, with or without full disclosure as to what's about to happen up front. With full disclosure, I feel it comes across as a "look at what else I can do besides magic" segment. Without full disclosure, it takes that same feeling to a more devious level - and can be entertaining to an audience but potentially embarrassing to the spectator/make the spectator feel stupid no matter how cheery everyone seems to be on the outside. I simply don't want to risk it.

Check out this 9-minute clip of Apollo Robbins at TED:

http://www.ted.com/talks/apollo_robbins ... sdirection

(You'll probably want to watch it a second time to see how he sets up his finale too. Just too good and incredibly well-integrated.)

Apollo talks about misdirection and the control of attention openly and intelligently with his audience because is it the very fabric of what he does as a pickpocket. But the last thing I want to talk to my audience about as a magician is misdirection and control of attention during my act.

Plus for me it also goes back to that "line" I alluded to earlier. Once you cross the line between using your props and using the spectator's props, you've made it very personal. Sure, a magician may borrow a ring or a $20 dollar bill or some such item from a spectator as part of their act, but the key word is "borrow" - the spectator willfully surrenders the personal item on a temporary basis. Compare that to a magician (who's been doing a magic act up to this point) walking a spectator on stage and then immediately handing them their ring back. I've suddenly got a whole different impression of this "magician." And while some folks may accept this, it's the folks who won't accept this as favorably who I am concerned about.

I'm sure Mr. Miles' upcoming release will have plenty of information, techniques, and tips from his experience that a lot of folks will be very interested in, and those folks should rightfully check it out. But after all that, what I guess I'm really trying to say is to be extremely - and I mean extremely - careful and thoughtful as to how you present yourself when doing a watch steal or any such effect, particularly if you are considering doing it as part of a magic act. While they are definitely related by misdirection and control of attention, magic and pickpocketing are two different beasts that can evoke much different feelings in an audience. That's not to say that combining them cannot be done - it just has to be done quite well and, preferably, brilliantly.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 23rd, 2014, 8:58 am

Mac King and Jeff Hobson both feature watch steals in their acts.

Harry Blackstone did a pick pocketing segment.

how do you feel about their work?

Emotionally speaking - when the audience sees the magician destroy a watch or ring, the chemicals associated with those emotions get released into their system and affect them at that time. The fact it is returned later does not change the emotional experience they go on. Do you have a position on these effects? it would seem as if you would have to disapprove of them on similar grounds.

And how do you feel of tricks which violate the spectators person such as the potsherd effect, loading cards under their butt or into their pockets, or presentations of cards across where spectators hide the cards in intimate locations.

Their perception is the magician must enter and take from that private space (an equivalent as some magicians perform fake watch steals - this issue is the perception of the audience).

curious how your position adapts to other similar magical circumstances.

brianarudolph
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 23rd, 2014, 10:39 am

Not to slightly divert this thread any further, but I've never seen Mac or Jeff's shows or their watch steal segments so I cannot comment on them other than to say what I already said: "That's not to say that combining them cannot be done - it just has to be done quite well and, preferably, brilliantly." If well-integrated with their respective characters and "story lines", I might very well like it.

Harry Blackstone's performance, OTOH, was a low point in his show for me. And it was still too much of a "look at what else I can do" filler bit for me as well. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying he didn't perform it well, but for me whenever I saw that part of the act it slide him down the scale towards the realm of "slick character" and away from that larger-than-life, booming-voiced, persona carrying on one of the greatest magical names of all time magicians. This is BLACKSTONE. Let's see: vanishing bird cage, floating lightbulb, buzz saw illusion, watch steal. Sing along with me: "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things, doesn't belong …"

And yes - I do not care for any effect in which the magician (apparently) destroys the personal property of the spectator. Smashing a watch, grinding a ring, etc. Nope. I don't like them for exactly the reason you state. But let me be very clear here too: those examples are different to me than something like burning a spectator's $100 bill. Why? Because (and bear with me to the end of this) the spectator (in all but the very most extreme case) has no personal attachment to that particular $100 bill - if the magician were to legitimately screw up and actually burn the spectator's $100 bill, the magician could simply give the spectator a completely different $100 bill (along with his/her apologies) and the spectator would be satisfied. Try replacing a spectator's wedding band after actually accidentally destroying it. Now of course (in all likelihood) the magician is not going to destroy the real ring. But the whole premise itself bothers me: You ask me to borrow my ring. I loan you my wedding ring. You thank me, put my ring in a small velvet pouch, pull the drawstrings closed, take out a sledgehammer, and proceed to beat the living shiitake mushrooms out of it. Oh yeah, I'm just loving you right now. But then, after some (not) humorous (to me) byplay that makes the audience absolutely howl, you "restore" my ring, hand it back to me, and all is suddenly well. The audience cheers and with a big smile on my face I return to my seat thinking how truly great you really are as a magician. Uh … close: The audience cheers and I return to my seat with a big smile on my face thinking it's a damned good thing you didn't really smash my wedding ring to smithereens or I would be waiting for you in the parking lot. I also swear that I will never loan anything to a magician ever again - presuming I ever attend another "magic show."

Nor do I care for things like cards across when the presentation involves the cards moving between intimate personal locations. There are so many other ways to present the effect. And because of the involvement of an intimate location, the effect gets into that "too impossible" range … ultimately leading a half-astute spectator to figure out that the magician did not and could not have "gone in there" in some sneaky way to get to those cards. Doesn't leave too many other alternatives in their mind for how the effect was accomplished, does it? Letting it happen on the table (for example) still leaves plenty of room for the spectator to think you're just too fast and too good to be caught.

While it may very well work for other magicians, I do my best not to do anything that could potentially embarrass a spectator, frighten a spectator, or make the spectator the butt of a joke - to my way of thinking, those are the kinds of things that should only happen to me during my show.

But OK, suppose some shadow group puts a gun to my head and says: "We're holding your signed copy of the first edition of Juan Tamiriz's The Magic Way hostage until you go out there and perform the 20th Century Brassiere trick." What would I do? Obviously with little choice in the matter now, I would select a nice looking, female spectator who seems to have a good attitude. But I would do so by asking for a lady volunteer to help me with something that could potentially be embarrassing to either or both of us if it goes wrong. (My preferred presentation would actually be to use a stooge - but then "randomly select her from the audience" using the exact same line about about potential embarrassment.) Now some boundaries have been established and the "failure" at the end can be legitimately laughed at by everyone - and the spectator stands a far better chance of understanding that it is not her they are laughing at.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 23rd, 2014, 10:53 am

thanks for the reply. Just wanted to explore your ideas further. I tend to agree with you.

i would be interested on your opinion on the Hobson/king watch steals - they are both surprise kicker type moments - and in one case I wonder if the methodological solution might mitigate your concern. I don't know that it does. but I'm not willing to go into those details in a public forum as it is part if someone's act.

thanks. I always enjoy exploring how thoughts like yours wind through other ideas.

JacquesleSueur
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby JacquesleSueur » June 23rd, 2014, 12:11 pm

Hiya guys,

Glad to see this thread up and running...

I'm the guy in the video. :-)

Granted, the watchsteal isn't for everyone.

Some credentials: This technique has taken me around the world to over 50 countries, it's sat me in front of everyone from Colin Farrell to the Saudi Royal Family.

I've had the opportunity to steal a State President's watch twice, and Greg Wilson says it's possibly the best watchsteal he's seen. That's unofficial, but he's good on his word.

It's a new technique, foolproof if you do it right.

We're launching it at a ridicuolously low price for the first week, so check it out and if you hate it, I'll hug you if I ever meet you in person. :-)

I'm sure Bryan will post the link once it's launched - in the meantime, all the magical best to you guys. Keep the magic flame burning.

SteveP
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby SteveP » June 23rd, 2014, 12:35 pm

brianarudolph wrote:
Harry Blackstone's performance, OTOH, was a low point in his show for me. And it was still too much of a "look at what else I can do" filler bit for me as well. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying he didn't perform it well, but for me whenever I saw that part of the act it slide him down the scale towards the realm of "slick character" and away from that larger-than-life, booming-voiced, persona carrying on one of the greatest magical names of all time magicians. This is BLACKSTONE. Let's see: vanishing bird cage, floating lightbulb, buzz saw illusion, watch steal. Sing along with me: "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things, doesn't belong …"


I have to comment here because I worked with Blackstone and having been through many, many shows with him, the pickpocket routine, what we called "The Committee", was one of the highlights of the show. I'm not saying you are incorrect because you personally didn't like it though. Audience's loved it. Blackstone considered it one of his bread and butter routines. His father did the routine.

Putting The Committee into the larger context of his entire show, it came right before the finale. He could have ended the show with the shirt pull, that's how strong the reaction was, but he kept the momentum of that applause going right into a brisk finale. Both of the Blackstone's did a full evening show and if you're going to be onstage for 2 hours, you have to break it up. You can't be mysterious all of the time. You have to give the audience some texture, a change of pace.

After I left the show I had a chance to see him perform live, which was the only time I saw him perform live. I had never seen him perform live before I started working for him. Being in the audience, at least at that show, confirmed what several of us in the show had talked about previously, that it was the illusions that brought the show down more so than Blackstone classics. Harry could have very easily made a better living with a smaller show, with The Committee as the finale.

The Committee stood out for another reason, very few people were doing a routine like this. In the early 1960s you could learn the routine for $50 from Harry Sr. If you went to Hollywood, he would teach it to you in his apartment. But know how to do it and being able to do it are two different matters.

brianarudolph wrote:But OK, suppose some shadow group puts a gun to my head and says: "We're holding your signed copy of the first edition of Juan Tamiriz's The Magic Way hostage until you go out there and perform the 20th Century Brassiere trick." What would I do? Obviously with little choice in the matter now, I would select a nice looking, female spectator who seems to have a good attitude. But I would do so by asking for a lady volunteer to help me with something that could potentially be embarrassing to either or both of us if it goes wrong. (My preferred presentation would actually be to use a stooge - but then "randomly select her from the audience" using the exact same line about about potential embarrassment.) Now some boundaries have been established and the "failure" at the end can be legitimately laughed at by everyone - and the spectator stands a far better chance of understanding that it is not her they are laughing at.


The Bra trick is definitely a humiliating effect. I suspect that most woman don't appreciate the gag. But you bring up an interesting solution in your hypothetical scenario, which is to use a stooge to take the sting away. That's exactly what Blackstone did with The Committee. The whole thing was set up, either before hand (shirt pull) or instant stooge during the performance. No one was ever embarrassed or felt violated because they had something picked off of them. They were in on the gag.

Your scenario for the bra effect isn't that far off base for me. I did a corporate show for TRW, the former credit reporting agency and they specifically requested I do the bra trick. It was either that or not book the show. I did it on the condition that they choose the person and that I tell that person that this was their idea.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2014, 12:36 pm

Any workers out there care to comment on the viability of asking a volunteer to put on a watch to time a trick as it happens. IE you get the volunteer, lend them a watch to time a trick as it happens and then do the watchsteal stuff in the course of the routine.

workable??

-JonT
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Bryan Miles
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bryan Miles » June 23rd, 2014, 2:01 pm

Hi Jonathan,

Nice idea. I believe this would be workable, but it would have to be framed properly for the audience.

Without plugging too much...in the pdf included in the WATCH download - there is a similar idea :mrgreen:

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby SteveP » June 23rd, 2014, 2:06 pm

Jon,

I don't think there is a reason to get someone in on it. Two performers were mentioned - Mac King and Jeff Hobson. I'll add two more - Michael Finney and Whit Haydn. All these guys do a watch steal regularly. But look at their personalities. Look at the context in which they're doing it.

There are so many magicians who do material that doesn't fit their personalities. Just because you want to do a routine or can do a routine doesn't mean you should do it. Over 30 years ago I used to do a burned bill routine ala Seabrooke. I finally had a chance to have my show video taped and was really surprised by how abusive I seemed to be during this routine. I wasn't trying to be. That certainly wasn't going through my mind, but it's just how I came across, so I dropped it.

I don't think a watch steal is a bad effect/skill, however you want to classify it, but so much of how it comes across is dependent on the person doing it. Do audience members hate it? Again, I think it depends. I was performing a close-up gig and someone asked if I could steal watches because he had seen a magician do it and wanted me to see me do it. I've never done it, so I didn't, but it told me that people can enjoy it.

brianarudolph
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 23rd, 2014, 2:47 pm

SteveP,

Thanks for your comments and especially for the additional insight into the Blackstone show. I was fortunate enough to see it three times in three different cities. I still have all three of the signed programs. I also used to chat with Harry Jr. a lot when he would come to Colon for the Abbott Get-Togethers as I usually stayed at a place nearly right next door to his old homestead.

Yes, I am only talking about my reaction. And yes, I knew that The Committee was a set-up. I agree 100% that audiences absolutely ate it up. ("He's the pull …") I also don't doubt that it was probably one of Harry's most favorite parts of the show (if not his favorite) since he could interact, ad lib and really enjoy himself immersed in the routined but still often unpredictable moment as much as the audience was enjoying themselves. But I'm also willing to bet that at least some members of the audience still left happy that it wasn't them on the stage, despite Harry's great charm.

Re-reading what I wrote, I should have left out the word "filler" since I can see how one would think that I was commenting on the entire Committee segment and not just the watch steal/pickpocketing aspects. For me again, it still boils down to pickpocketing (when presented in the context of a magic show) doesn't strike me personally as magic. I'm not seeing "magic" - I'm seeing something else. There is of course large magic and small magic (I also totally agree about pacing and breaking things up for the audience), but pickpocketing in a magic show doesn't make me think "magic" any more than juggling does. A breather, yes. Magic, no.

The shirt pull, OTOH, strikes me as the exact opposite - it seems incredibly like magic to me. Many escapes strike me more as magic as well. Although watching someone free themselves from a straightjacket while suspended from a cable upside-down is something I would definitely call an escape, things like Metamorphosis, the Water Torture Cell, the Milk Can, etc. (where the performer extricates themselves without apparently disturbing anything) or the Table of Death (where the performer not only escapes but ends up in an apparently impossible position) are very much more like magic to me. (Personal opinion flag still waving.) The beauty of the shirt pull is that it is so pure: we all wear shirts and we all know how we put them on and take them off. Then along comes Harry and - without any warning or cover of any kind - extracts the undershirt off the back of an audience volunteer in a split second. That's magic. And, in a smaller show, a definite finale candidate.

And for me, it would have been great to pay $50 to Harry Sr. just to learn the routine, it's subtleties and nuances with absolutely no intention of ever performing it myself. I have the feeling I would have learned so much more than the routine per se that would have been useful in my own performances.

Switching to Jonathan, I do like the idea of providing the watch to a spectator for some other purpose - and then stealing it. For example: give them the watch and let them time trick A. Then tell them they did such a wonderful job that you'd like them to stick around and help you again. Do trick B that does not require a watch (a little time misdirection here.) Then thank them and let them return to their seat. But just as they put a little distance between the two of you on stage (and before they step off the stage) you say something like "Hold it! I need my watch back! Then enjoy the reaction when the spectator realizes they aren't wearing it. That sits a bit better with my feelings. Gets the message across without making the spectator think they need to reach for their wallet - because you took something that was already yours.

Still, if there was a way to make it more like magic (again in the context of a magic show), I'd feel even better. This is just off the top of my head, but perhaps when the watch is initially given out (to a spectator with short sleeves), you have the spectator put it on their right hand (reason to be determined or maybe it's ok just to tell them to do it that way.) You then let them time trick A, then assist with trick B for some time misdirection. As they are leaving you extend your right hand to shake hands. Once you have ahold of their hand, you drape a silk or a foulard over you hands and then quickly whip it away - the watch has jumped to your wrist as you say "Don't worry about giving me the watch back!"

I am enjoying this great discussion immensely, but now I got to go get some work done!

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2014, 3:37 pm

SteveP wrote:Jon,

I don't think there is a reason to get someone in on it...


Agreed, they'd be a volunteer with no pre-show and selected in part for wearing short sleeves.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

MJE
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby MJE » June 23rd, 2014, 11:45 pm

I saw Blackstone (Junior) do the bit several times, and the only reason I didn't find it a low point in the show was that, for whatever reason, I always knew those involved. That includes the shirt steal.

I guess I can't look at that performance objectively, but I do find a pickpocket routine in a magic show WAY out of place in general. Maybe it's because I've heard too many comments through the years. You know....."he's a magician; hold onto your wallet."

A full-on con show can be lots of fun. A pick act within that is perfect. But magic? Jeez......I dunno....

And as far as the original question goes...yes, people still wear GOOD watches. The ones you don't want to mess with. The rest of us use our phones.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 24th, 2014, 12:03 am

Ricky jay did a pickpocket themed routine in On the Stem. He picked me as I was the only guy wearing a jacket that night. I felt so awkward, afraid I would accidentally screw things up and then him learning I was a magcian (was guest of a mutual mutual friend so that was likely to happen after).

anyway, just putting him on the roster of those who have mingled magic and pick pocketing themes.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bill Mullins » June 24th, 2014, 8:57 pm

brianarudolph wrote: Switching to Jonathan, I do like the idea of providing the watch to a spectator for some other purpose - and then stealing it.


How do you get them to put it on?

I wear a watch, but if I didn't, and someone gave me a wrist watch to time something, I'd just hold it in my hands. (I wouldn't want to strap someone else's watch on my wrist -- I'm just enough of a germophobe not to want to do that). If I needed to put it aside for another trick (per your time misdirection), I'd probably want to set it somewhere, or put it in my pocket. The magician would probably have to bluntly say "Put it on your wrist" to get me to do so, which would really detract from the steal when it occurs.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 24th, 2014, 11:34 pm

How about giving them something to hold in their hands that's appropriate to the effect being timed? For example, perhaps they'll need to hold the end of a rope with both hands ("Hold on tight - don't let go and make it easy on me!") if it's a rope trick, etc. Too tired to think of a real good example after my day today, but it ought to be reasonably easy enough to select an effect where such would be reasonably logical.

Of course you could tell the spectator that it's a very expensive watch so to ensure that they don't drop it, they should just put it on because they'll need both hands to help you. ("You don't believe me that it's expensive? Look closely: it's by that famous luxury Italian designer, Casio." :lol: )

jermar
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby jermar » June 25th, 2014, 11:04 pm

I think Mr Rudolph is being a little over sensitive. Pickpocketing combined with magic is a very powerful combination indeed. Some of the greatest magicians in the world have combined the two. I have seen David Berglas do cigarette magic on stage along with lots of wonderful card tricks along with the vanishing cane and finish his show with pickpocketing.

Here is Paul Potassy combining pickpocketing and magic together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YsBhJQMHF8

And here is the great Hungarian magician Rodolfo combining the miser's dream with pickpocketing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjSHIQbGJlk

Sure there is a slight discomfort with the taking of other people's property. But it really is no big deal and it is this very discomfort which audiences find so entertaining. But providing the stuff is given back and the spectators are treated with relative courtesy there really is nothing whatsoever to worry about.

If a magician can master pickpocketing it is one of the greatest things he can do to provide laughter a minute entertainment. And it doesn't stop the magic from being wonderful either. Mark Raffles did a wonderful cups and balls with baby chicks and he picked pockets at the same time.

Sometimes you can over think things which are actually quite obvious and it is quite obvious to most people that pickpocketing is terrific entertainment.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 26th, 2014, 1:35 am

… and it is quite obvious to most people that pickpocketing is terrific entertainment.


Couldn't agree with you more on that, jermar. Pickpocketing is terrific entertainment. But so are juggling, ventriloquism, musical numbers (vocal or instrumental), acrobatics, tightrope-walking, and performing seals.

But be very careful with your "over thinking" lead-in: I'm not debating the entertainment value of pickpocketing - my point is that pickpocketing is not magic. I agree with MJE that pickpocketing in general is way out of place in a magic show. And so are juggling, ventriloquism, musical numbers (vocal or instrumental), acrobatics, tightrope-walking, and performing seals.

And MJE hits the point far better than I did regarding what I was driving at when I mentioned the "slick character" categorization/stereotype: "He's a magician, so watch your wallet!" Not something I want to perpetuate as a magician starring in a magic show.

I must also revisit my "filler" notion. While Blackstone's Committee had pickpocketing elements, it wasn't purely about pickpocketing - it had magic elements as well. And while I enjoyed both of the youtube clips you linked to, with total respect for the talent and skill of both Paul Potassy and Rodolfo, in both clips I didn't really see magic combined with pickpocketing - I saw magic followed by pickpocketing.

That's not to say that they cannot be truly combined in an integrated sense - exactly what I would like to see happen but have not seen happen in a magic show when it comes to pickpocketing. So when I read your intro line to Rodolfo's clip about combining the Miser's Dream with pickpocketing, I was ecstatic. I thought: "now there is a perfect opportunity to combine magic and pickpocketing in meaningful, integrated way." Having never seen that clip before, I envisioned the Miser's Dream being performed for a couple of spectators on stage and, while the magician was amazing them with that, he was simultaneously picking their pockets. It's perfect: the Miser's Dream is an effect based around money that, at least subconsciously emphasizes the fact that it is actually an illusion to an audience, i.e., it doesn't take much thought to realize that if the magician could truly pull silver dollars out of thin air, he would be at home doing it all day as fast as he could, stopping only to ensure he had enough time to haul it all to the bank before they closed - rather than doing it on stage as one segment in a magic show. Given that, the climax of the routine would be a reveal showing (for example) that all the coins had vanished (why not put the "dream" element into "Miser's Dream?") and had been replaced with all sorts of seemingly random stuff: wallets, [censored], pens, keys, finger rings, etc. … that are then returned to the spectators in a manner keeping with the overall presentation as the audience realizes what actually just happened. Again for example: perhaps a photograph of the owner's family falls out of a wallet when the magician/pickpocket opens it to rifle through it. He stares at the picture, feels remorse, and so returns the items. (Just another idea off the top of my pointy head that I am certain could be improved.)

After all of that, I hope that I have better explained my own personal views and what I mean by integration of pickpocketing (or for that matter any of the allied arts) with magic - and why it is not the same as simply doing it as one act, sequence or segment of what is being billed, not as a variety show, but as a magic show.

jermar
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby jermar » June 26th, 2014, 7:16 am

Brian. I thank you for your extremely detailed and thorough reply. I do agree with you that pickpocketing is not magic but who the hell cares? As long as the audience is entertained I don't care what you call it. Escapology is not strictly magic either but it didn't seem to stop Houdini becoming the most famous magician of all time even when he is dead!

In point of fact pickpocketing has been associated with magic for a very long time and most professional pickpockets probably started out as magicians in the first place.

With regard to the Miser's Dream I think that in fact some performers HAVE used it while picking the pockets. I vaguely remember the great Vic Perry doing this.

Potassy DOES combine pickpocketing with magic. If you watch the clip carefully you will realise that if he didn't do the magic the pickpocketing probably wouldn't happen. And of course you haven't seen the rest of his act. It is a full 45 minutes or so including the Sympathetic Silks, the RAzor blades and other classic tricks. But to my mind the most effective part of his act is the two or three minutes of pickpocketing he does.

No. I really do believe you are overthinking this. As a professional performer I have to go by the bottom line rather than theoretical thinking. And the bottom line is that if you do pickpocketing in a magic act it is perfectly appropriate and gets terrific reaction. And that is all I and more importantly my audiences care about.

Ross Welford
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Ross Welford » June 26th, 2014, 10:30 am

JacquesleSueur wrote:
it's sat me in front of everyone from Colin Farrell to the Saudi Royal Family.



Sorry, Jacques - I'm sure you're great.

But that made me laugh. Genuinely. I'm not sure which is the funnier boast - him off "Ballykissangel", or the vilest ruling dynasty on the planet.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 26th, 2014, 10:33 am

it can be appropriate.

but just as your statement is over general so is Brian's (though to be fair, he did suggest some performers could make it work)

it is my experience that the "I just entertain them" mantra is too easily uttered by those doing hackneyed material and thoughtless routines while wearing playing card ties and rabbit pins with blinking eye balls.

the bar for "entertainment" is very low.

you can be thoughtful and offer a coherent character and well structured presentation AND be entertaining.

hitting yourself in the balls may make them laugh, but is that the target to shoot for?

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby mrgoat » June 26th, 2014, 11:43 am

Brad Henderson wrote:hitting yourself in the balls may make them laugh, but is that the target to shoot for?


I'd pay to see you do that.

:)

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 26th, 2014, 12:54 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:hitting yourself in the balls may make them laugh, but is that the target to shoot for?


I'd pay to see you do that.

:)


like the spike under the cups item - not likely a great trick for your average table-hopper.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 26th, 2014, 2:52 pm

jermar: thank you (and everyone) as well for a most interesting and intelligent discussion. And Brad: just to be clear, I think any performer who is willing to put the necessary time and effort into it can make it work - it's just that I think it actually takes a lot more time and effort than perhaps most people think it does - or needs. In both cases my point comes back to integration of the allied arts with magic not in addition to magic.

If you just want to entertain an audience, you could put together a show which consisted of a couple of illusions and then some juggling. Then sing a song, play the piano and give them a tap dance. Then do your ventriloquism set and finish with lion taming. Great magic show, wasn't it? And when you yourself say that the most effective part of Potassy's act to you was the pickpocketing, what exactly is that saying about his magic from the spectator's perspective? To me, that's a shame. And that's my point.

Again, I completely agree that all of these allied arts (performed at least reasonably well, of course) are highly entertaining. If someone was capable of being the septuple-threat who could pull off the illusions to lion-taming show I just outlined, fantastic. But would that person actually bill themselves and their show as a magician presenting a magic show? And what would be the most memorable part of the show for the audience? Even if the vote was dead even, only 1/7 of the audience would say the magic was the best thing. And once more: major props to any performer who can put together and star in such a show. But if I was in the audience, I would be hard pressed to say that I just saw a magic show. Entertained? Definitely. Magic show? No.

You see, I want an audience to remember the magic first and foremost - no matter what else I can do. I don't want them to think that my vent act was the best thing in my show, even if I did happen to do an extremely good vent act. I want them to remember they were at a magic show. And I could do that by doing nothing but magic in my show, or should I choose to incorporate one of the allied arts, that I take great care to ensure that the magic is both enhanced by and inseparable from whatever allied arts are also involved. This is what I mean by integration.

Tina Lenert has mastered integration of magic with pantomime. Sure, Tina could do the mime without the magic or the magic without the mime - but look at what she achieves by integrating the two. The act exists because of how strong the integration is. The whole is much, much larger than the sum of the parts.

"Integration" also does not merely mean "thrown together" or "performed at the same time." I sincerely doubt Tina woke up one morning, suddenly thought about combining magic with mime, had a cup of coffee and by noon was performing the bulk of her act. And while I don't know for certain, I would be willing to bet that Tina has put far more hours into developing, performing and continually sharpening the integration of magic and mime in her acts than most. But despite her start in pantomime, it is now impossible to separate the mime from the magic in her act. No one watches Tina Lenert and only comments on just the mime or just the magic. But that's great for magic, since magic cannot be relegated to the background when talking about Tina's performances. Even by being equal, magic is actually elevated since, as we have seen all too often, magic usually gets the short end of the stick when it goes up against those allied arts.

Charlie Frye & Company is on the cover of the July issue of Genii. Do they do magic? Yes. Is Charlie a magician presenting a magic show? Maybe we should see how they bill themselves:

http://www.charliefrye.com

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're secretly working on lion-taming.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby jermar » June 26th, 2014, 3:00 pm

Brad. Thank you for your point of view. I see things, perhaps a little differently as a professional performer who has to eat must do. ENTERTAINMENT MUST ALWAYS COME FIRST! Sure a performer should be able to mystify AND entertain but the latter is far more important than the former. Baffling people with magic is important but it really has to be a secondary consideration and this is important for amateur magicians as well as professionals. I do not believe entertainment to be a separate thing from being a good conjurer. No. It is part and parcel of being a good magician. If you are not entertaining the harsh truth is that you are not a good magician no matter how great your technical expertise.

I thank you for your "experience" regarding playing card ties etc; This may or may not be true. I have no idea since I haven't had time as yet to conduct a survey on the matter. However, let me tell you about pickpockets. Admittedly they are far fewer in number than magicians (thanks be to the Gods) but I have hardly seen a bad one. Well, only one local to my area who shall remain nameless.

Every single one of them puts entertainment first and I don't know a single one who wears a playing card tie or rabbit pin with or without blinking eye balls. OK I do know one pickpocket who wears the awful tie in question but I do not wish to incriminate myself. However, the chap in question only wears the dreaded tie in trade show situations as it does draw attention to his work. He does not wear a rabbit pin, however, so perhaps you may forgive him after all.

Furthermore I do not know any pickpocket who hits themselves in the genital area although I do confess that again I have not conducted a proper survey. But in any event I have not seen it done on stage. And I am not sure how entertaining it would be anyway.

As for the bar for entertainment being "very low" that is certainly true for magicians but virtually every stage pickpocket I have ever seen has been a superb artist and very skilled indeed and most of them have included a certain amount of magic in their work, some more than others.

In fact I shall make a bold statement. But please bear in mind that I am not referring to people who steal watches in close up magic situations. Some of them are indeed quite dreadful. And my statement is merely my own estimation of things but I bet it is not too far off from the truth. Here it is. I would say that 90% of stage magicians are very poor performers whereas 90% of stage pickpockets are quite superb performers.

There. I know you like arguing so there is something else for you to argue about.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby jermar » June 26th, 2014, 3:10 pm

It appears that I and Brian cross posted. Alas I don't have the energy to add to the word count to this topic which is probably a relief to all concerned. I will merely say that Potassy leaves the impression that he is a magician rather than a pickpocket. After all if three minutes of pickpocketing is compared to the remaining 42 minutes of his show which consists of magic only I think the impression left is of a magician and a damn good one.

But who the hell cares anyway whether magic is the main thing or something else? Usually only amateur magicians who despite their love for the subject often do not live in the real world. A professional entertainer has to be just that. An ENTERTAINER. And if a bit of pickpocketing helps that along so be it.

I expect you would like the way David Berglas did pickpocketing though. He stole the items in the normal way but used the information from the stuff he pinched to help him in his blindfold work. I don't like to give away information on an open forum that anyone can read so I will say no more.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 26th, 2014, 3:47 pm

perhaps the key is that the audience leave with a clear understanding of what they have seen. for that to occur the performer must be clear as to what he or she is offering and communicate that clearly and consistently.

to suggest that one could not be perceived as a magician and successfully incorporate material that is not traditionally defined by insiders as magic would be closed minded.

to suggest that stringing together a bunch of bad jokes and various demonstrations that divert without engaging or moving an audience beyond the pleasantness or distraction to be the sole measure of an act is equally myopic.

why is it so many 'entertainers' assume that anyone who might disagree with them is not or could not be a working performer themselves?

jermar
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby jermar » June 26th, 2014, 5:45 pm

Brad. I am familiar with your work and your status in magic. I am not assuming anything. As for "bad jokes" I have never seen a professional pickpocket indulge in such things but I have certainly seen many magicians do so.

Alas I am a little unclear as to whose side you are on or what we are arguing about. Alas I tend to get lost in a morass of big words and confusing language. But then you are a mentalist so I suppose that sort of explains it all.

I am now bored with this discussion so I shall look at some of the other threads on this site. In the meantime I shall leave you with a videoclip of one of the better pickpockets. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QLNMaSEM64

Brad Henderson
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Brad Henderson » June 26th, 2014, 6:16 pm

my point is I think neither extreme of position necessarily results in a negative or a positive. The idea that 'entertainment' is the highest bar does not always lead to quality theatrical experiences. schindler's list was hardly 'entertaining' but is clearly a great movie and elicits a power that any performers would love to achieve through their own work. Jackass is entertaining. Local backyard amateur raslin' is entertaining. entertaining is one bar. There are others higher.

To Brian's point, I think the issue is not that the performer cannot mix magic and a variety art, it is that they have to be clear to their audience how or why one would likely extend from or relate to the other, assuming one wished to leave the impression that they are, indeed, a magcian and not some other creature of performance artist.

you seem to be coming from the position of privileging the pickpocket act as the foundational basis of the act. Brian seems to be working from the position that it is a magician who is performing, a magician who happens to be doing a pickpocketing act.

in some ways you may be comparing apples and oranges.

the solution to the problem is to have a clear intention, a motivation for one's work. who are you? what do you do? how do you do it? why do you do it? what do you want your audiences to feel? What should it mean to your audience - why should they care?

once we answer those questions for ourselves we can consistently and clearly communicate our vision to our audience - and we CAN be magicians who pickpockets or anything else we can imagine.

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby brianarudolph » June 26th, 2014, 9:26 pm

Brad sums up my position pretty clearly. I think jermar and I are both "right" but only while speaking of our own preferred focus. I choose to make magic the major (if not the only) art showcased in my performances. As such, I present myself as a magician in a magic show. If I elect to incorporate any of the other allied arts into my magic show, it must be carefully integrated so that it never overshadows the magic.

Conversely, even though he uses plenty of sleight-of-hand, I don't think Apollo Robbins wants to portray himself or be remembered as a "magician" for any of his performances (despite an undying love of the art of magic I can't help but presume he has.)

Charlie Frye & Company, by going the variety route, must create an act that uniquely conveys their vision of a variety show, mixing and matching the required allied performing arts (which again includes magic) in such a way that no one art shines so brightly that Charlie is cast as (for example) "a juggler who also does some magic" or "magician who also does some comedy" but rather defying such categorizations to be rightfully recognized as the outstanding comprehensive variety performer that he is - and that "& Company" is as well.
Last edited by brianarudolph on June 27th, 2014, 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

JacquesleSueur
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby JacquesleSueur » June 27th, 2014, 8:54 am

Ross Welford wrote:
JacquesleSueur wrote:
it's sat me in front of everyone from Colin Farrell to the Saudi Royal Family.



Sorry, Jacques - I'm sure you're great.

But that made me laugh. Genuinely. I'm not sure which is the funnier boast - him off "Ballykissangel", or the vilest ruling dynasty on the planet.


Bryan, make a note that Mr Welford will be paying double. *grin*

Jokes aside, Ross, have a great weekend. All the very best from a sunny South Africa. :-)

Ross Welford
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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Ross Welford » June 27th, 2014, 9:34 am

Jacques - you are one of an increasingly rare species: someone who can take a joke! All the best, Ross

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Re: Do people still wear watches?

Postby Bill Mullins » June 27th, 2014, 10:17 am

Am I the only one who gets a Marque Louis vibe from jermar?


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