I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Steve Hook
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Steve Hook » April 30th, 2014, 12:27 am

Brad Henderson wrote:lest I be misunderstood.


Don't worry, Brad...you're understood all too well...

Brad Henderson
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » April 30th, 2014, 3:13 am

Bill Marquardt wrote:All I can say is that the language contained in some previous posts paints a picture of the author as a horrible person. It is the most disgusting stuff I have read on either forum. I have to believe the author of those posts is not like that in "real life." I won't say any more. I've probably said too much.


if condemning the man who has willfully harmed that which I love makes me a horrible person - I happily accept.

if you wish to make this about me, please start a thread to that effect. I've made my feelings on this matter clearly known. judge as you will. Time to move on.

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mrgoat
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby mrgoat » April 30th, 2014, 8:22 am

A personal attack would be stating his is fat, has stupid hair etc. Stating he is harming magic by deleting factual threads about advertisers isn't a *personal* attack. It is pointing out the truth to warn people that might not no better about how that site works.

IMHO, as ever.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 30th, 2014, 9:49 am

Bill Marquardt wrote:All I can say is that the language contained in some previous posts paints a picture of the author as a horrible person. ...


Still tempting as a performing character. Socially over the line tricks. lines across done on a mirror. the passe bottle trick using pill bottles... maybe a few jokes like "what do you tell your kids about drugs? shaddup and take your Ritalin." doing the four little beans as an "i saw this guy in a restaurant taking his meds... right at the table in front of the family ... but this is what he did... and then where they weren't looking he ..."

Okay back to RK's last day before he can post at the cafe again. :mrgreen:
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PickaCard
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby PickaCard » April 30th, 2014, 2:28 pm

I am surprised one would care so much about the fleeting information posted, or removed, on one board or the other.

To become a better magician, one should spend their time practicing and performing. Forums help me kill some time and hopefully guide me to an interesting trick or book to research and discover.

I find it hard to believe the way a board is run could hurt magic. I would be a much better magician if there were no boards as I would spend more time practicing the tricks (and books, DVDs,...) I have purchased instead of researching the ones I should buy next.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 30th, 2014, 2:33 pm

PickaCard wrote:I am surprised one would care so much about the fleeting information posted, or removed, on one board or the other.

To become a better magician, one should ...


which one? can there be more than one? what do they both agree about? which one of them sells more? does that make them better? do they use red backed cards or blue ones? if one sells a trick and the other wants a setup in blue backs can they make one for themselves or is that bad?

inquiring minds seem to want to know sometimes.
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Kent Gunn » April 30th, 2014, 5:02 pm

PickaCard wrote:I am surprised one would care so much about the fleeting information posted, or removed, on one board or the other.

To become a better magician, one should spend their time practicing and performing. Forums help me kill some time and hopefully guide me to an interesting trick or book to research and discover.

I find it hard to believe the way a board is run could hurt magic. I would be a much better magician if there were no boards as I would spend more time practicing the tricks (and books, DVDs,...) I have purchased instead of researching the ones I should buy next.



Yup,

What this guy said. Crap, I'm goofing off on a magic board when I could be practicing. Darn it!

Brad Henderson
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 1st, 2014, 12:12 pm

some people use the boards thinking they are a legitimate resource for magical education. How the board is run greatly impacts that experience - for example do you allow people to believe some German magic dealer that he invented a trick or method when one of magic's most prolific creators performed that trick decades prior to it's 'invention'. Does the forum allow the lie which sends the student to a dead end, or are they an advocate for the truth which opens a path that a student can follow back for over a century, with many twists and turns and opportunities for learning along the way?

Do you allow someone - one if your moderators who claims himself an expert on a type of magic - to dismiss the most influential magician in the modern history of that genre as 'all old stuff' - having just admitted he has never heard of this pioneer until a day earlier. What would you think of a forum who then allowed that moderator to then speak on behalf of that dead expert - the one he had never heard of? Are students better off when false experts are allowed to ensconce themselves and protect themselves by banning any who might have the facts?

How is a student helped when the past bad behavior of a review show hosts are constantly expunged from the record? Are these the people students should turn to for advice? how are they to know when the only comments allowed are praise?

there - three examples of how decisions on a forum can actively hinder one's growth in magic. Nothing wrong with a forum of nonsense for people to play in. but at least call it for what it is. Don't pretend it is a resource meant to help.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 1st, 2014, 1:05 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:some people use the boards thinking they are a legitimate resource for magical education. ...


perhaps also setting out milk and cookies for santa?

does it really matter so much to you who's fleecing the flock or who's getting a bigger dispensation with a banner ad?

and now over the the green place to see if any new RK posts are up
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Thurston
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Thurston » May 1st, 2014, 2:30 pm

Some pretty broad generalizations by Brad on who frequents the Café. I probably spend more time on the Café than here. After 40 years in magic consider myself reasonably knowledgeable on many areas and am capable of separating the wheat from the chaff on the café, as I think many are. I have seen a lot of good advice given there and when the advice is wrong there are many who correct it. Not saying it doesn’t erupt into silliness at times, however that is clearly apt to happen even here.
I think this is a great forum but some of the over the top comments on the other forum I don’t think are warranted and do appear pompous. My opinion only.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 1st, 2014, 4:09 pm

I agree with you. Brad has been banned repeatedly from the Cafe, so his opinions are not a surprise.

However, with so many more members than the Genii Forum, the number of people with less knowledge about magic is going to be greater there. Plain old mathematics.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 1st, 2014, 4:30 pm

Actually, Richard. I have NOT been banned from the Cafe many times. Only once. And I suspect the reason it did not happen many times before was precisely the problem with the cafe - because of my relationship with Magic Magazine and the visibility I had at the time I received special treatment.

And my feelings for the Cafe have nothing to do with my having been banned. In fact, I'm my life is much better off now because of it. My feelings of disgust, which I have harbored from very early on, stem entirely from how the Cafe actively hinders the growth of magic as an art, and creates obstacles for those seriously interested in learning about magic. Some may call these blanket statements. I have alluded to very specific cases. I can list countless more.

Re the mathematics of it all. In an open forum good ideas would win out. That requires the good ideas to compete with the bad. There are much fewer people here, but the quality of information here is so much higher because there are people who can evaluate ideas, base them on real experience or knowledge of history, and those ideas can be judged based on the give and take of the discourse.

The cafe silences those who would suggest that the world of magic did not begin with whatever 18 year old just invented out of this world.

Mathematics would dictate that as the population rises, the quality at the top would rise too. That's a bell curve. What we see at the cafe is NOT a bell curve - not when those with real experience and knowledge of history are deleted, edited, banned, or give up into their own personal exiles.

Here, because we can exchange ideas even when they upset dealers, the most informed among us have allowed the level of information to grow, to rise. The quality here has been well nurtured.

The issue isn't math, it's sociology.

For the record, I have been banned more times on this forum than on the Cafe, and I have never harbored the ill will towards you or this forum as I do for the cafe. So the basis of your conclusion, and your conclusion, are wrong. Apologies will be accepted should they be forthcoming.

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AJM
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby AJM » May 1st, 2014, 4:47 pm

Bell curves....again.

Never been to the cafe - never felt the need to go and have a look.

Never read Magic magazine for that matter either.

Life's too short - move on.....

Onward, as The Rock would say.

Andrew
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Bill Mullins
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Bill Mullins » May 1st, 2014, 8:06 pm

AJM wrote: Never been to the cafe - never felt the need to go and have a look.

I don't frequent it, but I've read a lot of good stuff there.

Never read Magic magazine for that matter either.

Why not? It's a good magazine. There's a really good article on Doug Henning and his first
Broadway show in the current issue.

Once, at a Johnny Ace Palmer lecture, someone asked him which of the magic magazines one should read. He said "all of them".

Once, at a Michael Close lecture, he said "The more you know, the more you know."

I can't see why one would arbitrarily decide not to take advantage of a resource.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby El Mago de Oh! » May 1st, 2014, 8:26 pm

Hi everyone.
I'm Mago de Oh!
I'm new here but already with something to share. I want to thank you all, and also thanks to magic cafe.
I,ll explain: I live in Spain and I was searching for a international forum (googling, etc..)
found nothing, but then I found magic cafe, I had a look and it looked to me a bit weird, the coments were
a bit violent for my style. So that's why I thank you for sharing the same opinion (I'm not alone after all)
But, however not knowing of other forum I tried to register, and here my "thank you" to them, because
they don't let me register. Not anyone with a free mail like yahoo or hot mail, also they gone block aol.
Never happen to me before.
Hope to find fun in here.

Saludos from Spain.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby shatteredorbit » May 2nd, 2014, 12:19 am

Not sure how many here have heard of the 1-9-90 rule... Basically it's that 1 percent create, 9 percent contribute in some form, and the remaining 90 percent are just consumers.

Question for the discussion: with the difference in the number of members here vs there, do you think the 1990 rul holds up? I am not a member over there because of the registration requirements (when they allowed registration) and can't contribute even if I wanted to.

Likewise, by limiting registration, do you see that as helping more people to contribute? Or, as Richard eluded to earlier, does the post count and quality go down? As I mentioned earlier, I was the bottom 90, a consumer of this forum, well before I felt I had something worthwhile to say.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby mrgoat » May 2nd, 2014, 4:21 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
I can't see why one would arbitrarily decide not to take advantage of a resource.


I guess because it is predominantly full of idiots, because the huge number of pointless sub forums makes it hard to navigate and because the owner is totally in the pockets of his advertisers and deletes threads pointing out when advertisers are stealing/lying/cheating.

Any one of those is a good enough reason for me. All three, and well, it's obvious.

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AJM
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby AJM » May 2nd, 2014, 6:59 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I can't see why one would arbitrarily decide not to take advantage of a resource.


It's not difficult, Bill, let me explain.
(By the way, the inclusion of the word 'arbitrarily' above seems to suggest that you have made an assumption about me.)

Essentially, it's all about time and the constant struggle to make best use of it.
- Professionally, like many others these days, my 'day job' is no longer the 9 to 5, Mon-Fri arrangement it was back in the day - I'm expected to be 'on' pretty much 24/7.
- Aside from that, my 2 siblings and I take turns in caring for an elderly parent.
- In addition I have to find time to keep my professional knowledge up to date.
- Following that, I like to try and find some time to spend with the long-suffering Mrs AJM, who has the patience of a saint.

Magic is one of many passions, alongside music, literature and cinema - I can only absorb so much of each in any given period. Spending time reading two or three different magic publications each month would be detrimental to the time I have available to spend on the others (and I don't have enough as it is).

Perhaps I have selected my magic preferences wisely, maybe I have just been lucky - however rest assured that had Genii not 'hit the mark' I would had moved on to something else long before now.

(For information, I subscribed to Genii shortly after seeing David Ben in the 'Conjurer's Suite' in Toronto - oddly enough, the first issue I received was the David Ben 'Conjurer' issue. So perhaps Mr Ben should take the credit for pointing me in the right direction.)

Bill Mullins wrote:Once, at a Michael Close lecture, he said "The more you know, the more you know."

I couldn't agree more. My advice to anyone, particularly 'yoots', would be to read, study, learn as much you can - it is the most enjoyable and fulfilling of all activities.

However, sometimes there is so much going on that I'm reminded of the sage words of the contemporary philosopher, Homer Simpson: -
'Every time I learn something new it pushes old stuff out of my brain.'

Incidentally, I am on annual leave this week - so what have I been up to, I hear you ask. Practising card moves? Playing an instrument? - actually I've been mostly sleeping cos I'm knackered.

Regards

Andrew
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Bill Mullins
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Bill Mullins » May 2nd, 2014, 8:37 am

AJM wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:I can't see why one would arbitrarily decide not to take advantage of a resource.


It's not difficult, Bill, let me explain.
(By the way, the inclusion of the word 'arbitrarily' above seems to suggest that you have made an assumption about me.)


Andrew -- my comment was at least as much about your decision not to read Magic as it was about your not using the Cafe.

The "other" magazine is different from Genii. But it's still a good magazine and worth reading. Lots of good magicians contribute to both magazines -- heck, Richard used to be a columnist for them.

But it's the suggestion that the Cafe is not worthless that seemed to draw your ire.

You said you'd never been there, nor felt the need to. If you had tried it, and found it wanting, that's one thing. But to disdain it based on no first-hand knowledge seems, if not arbitrary, to at least show a lack of curiosity.

I'm not an active member of the Cafe. But when I'm googling magic-related stuff, I often get links back there. And it's often worth reading what I find. I agree with Damian that their organizational structure is more complicated than it needs to be, and that there are some dumb people involved. But hey, life is full of dumb people, and sometimes developing a thick skin and idiot-management skills is the better response.

If I avoided every internet site frequented by morons, my browser history would be pretty thin.

At any rate, we seem to agree that the Genii Forum is a better place, and full of better people, so we have that in common.

(and while my post may have included assumptions about you, your first sentence in response was patronizing. but we're both big boys and can move past that sort of thing.)

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby AJM » May 2nd, 2014, 9:46 am

Bill

My first sentence wasn't intended to be patronising - my apologies if you took it as such.

You claimed you couldn't see any reason as to why I (or anyone) wouldn't make use of all available resources whereas I'm sure there are many more valid reasons than those I mentioned.

Given the amount of (negative) bandwidth the Cafe gets on the Genii Forum and the occasional 'stray' that finds their way over here, I know enough to have decided not to expend any of my precious time over there.

On the Magic magazine front, it so happens that my current Genii subscription has expired this month - perhaps I should take the opportunity and subscribe to Magic for a couple of years. (Don't tell Richard though).

Regards

Andrew
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Todd Lassen
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Todd Lassen » May 2nd, 2014, 11:39 am

I can speak honestly when I say, and many of you will remember... because of some of the sponsors over at the Magic Cafe, I was banned from Magic Cafe. Brooks was supposedly a friend just caught in the middle, and I insulted Thomas Wayne, by posting an avatar with a t-shirt saying "wuck fayne" on the cafe when he started copying my products.

The sponsors, which I had had previous beefs with, began supporting a new coin gaff maker. And, as it turns out, not only was I banned, but any pro-Lassen speak was quickly deleted from the green board, and anyone that had anything bad to say about me was being haloed. This in turn, took business from me, and made a hack a hero. The hack supplied product not half the quality and charged more than my prices, he also borrowed heavily from everything I had created on my own, using even the exact same world coins that I chose for my sets... with literally tens of thousands of others to choose from.. he used the exact same coins I was using.

Then this hack-hero copied my Triple Threat gaff and began producing it immediately, only a week after Troy Hooser had lectured on my gaff at the Magic Castle and allowed hack to examine it. And where was this promoted? On the Magic Cafe. And if anyone mentioned the original Triple Threat, I'm pretty sure it was deleted every time.

This is not only banning.. it is blackballing. And many of you remember how long it went on.

And I'm going to add, that at this time, a certain Brad Henderson wrote a review in Magic Magazine of hack's knock off of my Triple Threat, there was not even the wee-est inkling about the original creator, me, and Mr. Henderson was full aware of the details at the time. It was fashionable over at the Cafe to hate or ignore Lassen whilst giving glory to young hack. I knew a friend of a friend of MM editor, and I called Mr. Allen and told him my story. He sounded concerned and said he would get right back to me. 2 months later I finally called him again, and he made only one statement... yeah, I asked everybody and have decided to leave everything the same. And to this day, I have never bought another Magic Magazine. I used to buy every issue, so that cost them something, at least.

Now, maybe a couple years ago, Steve Brooks starts calling me. I am very suspicious to say the least. He says we never had a beef, he just had to follow the rules, and I was out of line..whatever... nothing personal of course. (If any of you know exactly all the crap that went on, you will laugh now). Anyway, he wants to order some expensive coin gaffs.

So I'm totally fried, and I says ok, let's bury the hatchet. That will be good. Steve sends me a new membership, which so far I haven't used. But I'm still racking my brain why this guy is trying to buy stuff from me, or get me to come back to MC. I have to suspect an ulterior motive. I know at the time he was trying to start the Tenyo Elite stuff.. that entered my mind. Did he want something from me? Or what was he going to do with the product that I sent him, that he seemed so suddenly interested in? Had he forgotten that once he posted that he bought coins from me.. and had to take them to Schoolcraft to be "finished correctly".

Not knowing what to do, I made the gaffs and sent them to him sans gratis. He thanked me, and hopefully that would make him the largest of all rats if he screwed me after that. A small price to pay, I guess. And now, it seems people can say good things about Lassen on the green board, and I've never been contacted by Mr. Brooks again.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby erdnasephile » May 2nd, 2014, 11:41 am

One way I find The Magic Café useful is for the reviews of new products. One, because my impression of the place is that it is dominated by hobbyists that buy lots and lots of stuff--it's easy to find someone who has bought the thing I'm interested in. Two, because John Mendoza posts there, and I think his opinions on products are worth reading. I have also liked the Guest of the Month feature when I have perused it in the past.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby mrgoat » May 2nd, 2014, 11:51 am

erdnasephile wrote:One way I find The Magic Café useful is for the reviews of new products.


That's as useful as a McDonald's fan reviewing a very expensive steak.

;)

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby erdnasephile » May 2nd, 2014, 12:04 pm

Fair enough, but asking about new stuff over here often gets :::crickets:::

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 2nd, 2014, 1:13 pm

Todd, the creator of the gaff was Connie Hayden who was credited. I reported the lineage of that idea as it went from the creator to Schoolcraft. I am not aware that it is common practice for reviewers to mention competing products when they have not been submitted for review or have not been tested by the reviewer. I was contacted by a friend of yours and offered to print any correction to that history he would submit. I never heard back from him.

having said that, I do not and have not ever condoned the censoring of comments regarding your work. You clearly are a master at what you do. To deny that or attempt to hide that from others, is an act of desperation and a demonstration of pettiness.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 2nd, 2014, 2:48 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Todd, the creator of the gaff was Connie Hayden who was credited. I reported the lineage of that idea ...


Hi Brad. I did not know Connie Hayden was making sets with shimmed expanded shells and magnetic cut down coins.
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 2nd, 2014, 3:06 pm

this history - which I confirmed and has yet to be refuted - was that the idea of the gaff was Connie Hayden's. that would make him the creator. I reviewed one maker's version of that gaff. The lineage suggested to me that the maker was on ethically sound territory in making said gaff. I'm sure other makers could would and do make that gaff. Unfortunately I could only review products I had actually seen. Should you have further questions, drop me an email.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 2nd, 2014, 3:20 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Fair enough, but asking about new stuff over here often gets :::crickets:::


How's it going with the Hofzinser tricks?
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby erdnasephile » May 2nd, 2014, 3:49 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:Fair enough, but asking about new stuff over here often gets :::crickets:::


How's it going with the Hofzinser tricks?



You mean these? :D (I think these tricks are terrific by the way...)






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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Todd Lassen » May 2nd, 2014, 9:02 pm

Brad. Connie did make a double shell gimmick, that I was well aware of and producing. I made the first ones at the request of Chris Korn, I believe, because he was using it for his translocation, not having to cross the hands idea.

It was later suggested to me by Paul Wilson.. the idea of magnetizing the coins in the nests that I was making.

After many hours, only a few of these were made and the gaff was kept quiet for a number of years. Troy Hooser was one of the first owners and he developed a lot of material for the gaff. Troy asked me if I was interested in releasing it, and I think I said something like... no. Then Troy fooled me with it. And I said we should get Paul Wilson's blessing, which we did call Paul and did get his blessing. Then I made an agreement with Troy... you sell your notes and I sell the gaff. Simple.

But on Troy's first lecture on the gaffus, Schoolcraft examined the gaffus and then immediately starting emailing people that he was now making "triple threat" and that he would have 12 sets ready for WMS in a following month. He had not even renamed the gaffus to 3CM yet, he was calling it "triple threat". One of these emails was forwarded to me.

Then as I have complained before, he took out full page ads in the magazines.

The way Schoolcraft saw clear to copy my Triple Threat, his justification news for the knockoff came by way of the Magic Cafe. We had credited Paul Wilson with the idea of magnetizing the Connie 3 coin nest. Paul wilson was a friend of Dean Dill. So Dean Dill goes to Paul and asks if they can make Triple Threat, and I guess Paul says yeah. And then the authority on everything coin at the time, Dan Watkins announced.. I guess anyone can make Triple Threat. Then Dokkem was making them, and everybody's mother.

Then, it was suggested on Magic Cafe to buy Schoolcraft's knockoff... and go to Troy to get his notes.

So, Brad, the fact remains that I was the one that put in all the hours and developed the thing for Schoolcraft and everyone else to copy. And Triple Threat is based off of a 3 coin nest, but is much more complicated, and complicated to make, and many more things are possible. My quality in the gaff has prevailed above the knockoffs over time, but Schoolcraft and Dill did take a lot of money out of my pocket with their crappy version that did not have an expanded shell, but did include a wafer sized last coin, comparable to a potato chip.

And Brad, you only felt it necessary to credit Connie, when you knew full well the entire story of the origin of the Triple Threat. Like I said, not one bone in your body thought it necessary to credit Todd Lassen, the guy that brought this to the magic community only a few weeks before the buzzards knocked it off. I guess, from what you said, because you had nothing to compare it to. Because, Schoolcraft gave you a free one for the review. But, you never contacted me for a comparison, and you never contacted me and told me you were going to write a review of a competitor's knockoff of my product.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 3rd, 2014, 9:51 pm

Todd - we agree on that history, which I believe was conveyed in the magazine review. As I confirmed with Paul that he had given permission for Jamie to use his idea, I felt that the item was ethical. I included the history so others could see how I came to that conclusion. You feel differently. I respect that. others can look at the history and decide where they would land. I know many who feel one way, many who feel the other, and some who are unsure.

having said that, I don't know any reviewer who would reach out to a competitor of a product sent for review, let alone ask for an item to compare -- seems way too "pay for play" for my taste.

I didn't even think it would be right to solicit items at all. People sent me stuff, of course - but I preferred items going to the main office and assigned that way.

I appreciate your position. I just think in this case, because permissions were granted, the item is fair game. I am by no means an expert on the crafting of gaffed coins. Commenting on the evolutionary details of manufacture techniques is well beyond my scope. But I don't think anyone expected that perspective in a review for a general mainstream magic magazine.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Todd Lassen » May 5th, 2014, 12:49 pm

So you confirmed with Paul Wilson, that he gave permission to Dean Dill and Jamie Schoolcraft, to make a copy of my product, that Troy and I had just released.

I wish I had that article here. Do you have a copy you can post? Where it says the history and Paul says he gives permission to those guys to make copies of my Triple Threat?

So you know MANY on both sides of the fence and some who are unsure? That is a lot of people weighing in on this old matter. I bet I can guess who is on the one side of the fence though.

So, now if someone in magic looks at an old effect that you are making and says, without knowing how to do it... it would be cool if you could make that better. He shares the CONCEPT with you, and you spend a year creating the effect, doing all the research and development, and using your expertise and knowledge, to make the effect perfect in every way. Then you get the blessing of the guy that gave you the CONCEPT to bring an idea into fruition and to release the effect to the magic community. (We also offered free product to Paul, but I think that was nixed when we saw what he did). So now, the guy with the idea for the improvement of the existing effect has the right to say who can and who can't make the product that you developed?? That sounds right. Not.

I just read an article in Genii a while back, there may have been several, about advancing magic from old effects. And that creators, I think was the gist, should be allowed to advance old techniques without ruffling feathers. But in this case, Schoolcraft took what I spent a long time developing, and made it crappier. And sold it for more.

And Brad, I just want to ask you... so if you knew that Troy and I just released the Triple Threat to the magic market, do you think it was ethical for Dean Dill to say to himself, hey, I know Paul Wilson, and those guys are crediting Paul, we'll just go to him and ask him for permission to copy Todd's new gaff? No Brad, that was not ethical, it was a cheap and political stunt. And for Paul to grant permission for anyone to copy my work, just because he planted the original concept, was not his right, in my opinion.

That's just stuff your momma should have taught you. And I know full well you were aware of all the politics going on at the time you wrote the article, and of my position. So all that air you are throwing around in your posts don't mean squat, a spade is a spade, son.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Bill Mullins » May 5th, 2014, 1:38 pm

Is CSB public domain now? Did Presley/Pressley Guitar release it to everyone, or do people make them with his blessing, or do they just make them?

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 5th, 2014, 1:54 pm

Todd. I will try to be more clear, though I cannot imagine how. You did not invent the gaff, the additions to the original idea, nor did you manufacture the item sent to me for review. I was aware of the controversy at the time of the review and checked the lineage of permissions as outlined here. I reported that lineage in my review.

I pondered mentioning your work as part of reporting the controversy. However I felt this was a bad idea, not because of anything related to the situation specifically, but a poor policy for approaching reviews, a policy with which one could hardly be consistent.

i made a policy decision, i stand by my choices and tried to remain consistent to them. you might not care for that decision but you weren't the one putting your name on the line. I gave your friend the opportunity to rebutt any of the facts in the review. never heard from him.

Todd, no one has ever suggested your are not a masterful coin gaff maker. While I have not seen your magnetic triple nesting shell set I am sure it is great. I have seen Jamie's. His is great.

I cannot imagine that with a magic market as large as it is, and the rare few master coin gaffs makers that there are, that my review which did not even mention you or your work had any impact of any kind on your bottom line. Your unwillingness to sell to people you consider enemies, vicious personal attacks of others online, and the timeliness of responses to potential customer inquiries may have more to do with that.

You can attack me if you want. It will change nothing from the past, only influencing the potential customers in your future. Do you really want to be known as the guy so seemingly jealous that he attacks those who acknowledge other coin gaffs and other coin makers?

I wish you luck in moving forward.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Jim Riser » May 5th, 2014, 3:05 pm

Todd;
There is NO WAY that those who can not or do not make the items will ever understand the amount of time and money that go in to developing a product. They do not have the experience to comprehend. They just want the latest item at the cheapest price (if possible) no matter who made it. And they will come up with all types of justifications for their actions. I, too, have seen the way the cyberbullies on the MC gang up against the guy who did the real work. Reviews on the Magic Cafe are worthless as the guys doing the reviews are never fully educated on the subject. The amount of misinformation is monumental.

I have given up on the average magic enthusiast, cut production WAY back, and limit to whom I will sell. I'm basically retired and do not need to make the magic items. Some hotshots have been black balled and can not buy from me. These guys have to get my items second hand - if they can. I do not care. My goals in life do not include catering to ignorant fools.

It is much nicer making items for those who appreciate the work and expense involved. I do not send items out for review as I already know the merits of the product and choose to not give my work (a part of my life) to reviewers. At my age, I need not prove anything to anyone. I'd rather give my items to close friends who can and will use the items.

When society's rejects who have never held a leadership position are given a position of power (moderators on the Magic Cafe), they can not handle it. The "awesome power" goes to their heads and they play mini-gods. And these are reasons why I do not mind being banned - for trying to defend myself to the ignorant masses.

Todd, to expect fairness and complete history on any item/subject discussed on the Magic Cafe is not living in reality. The site owner does not seem to value such principles. Protecting advertisers is evidently more his thing. The bottom line appears to be that no one but the guy doing the actual work and getting his hands dirty cares about how the item came into being. It is a sad statement about the state of things in the magic community. I do not see things changing for the better. Hopefully, history will include more that the tripe seen on the Magic Cafe.

Life is not fair.

Brad, it is OK to admit to not fully researching the item reviewed. Your overly long justifications seen to be written to avoid admitting this. For shame.
Jim

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Brad Henderson » May 5th, 2014, 3:23 pm

Jim, I reported the history of the idea as has been repeated here. I related the permissions which were granted, and detailed (if I recall correctly, this was years ago) the elements that Schoolcraft added to his gaffs - he sent me a flipper too.

When it comes to magic reviews I feel that is the due diligence which is required. I am not nor will I ever be an expert on HOW things are made. Todd seems to suggest that Schoolcraft merely took one of his items and copied it - yet at the same time feels that his are superior, ie different from Schoolcraft's. This to me undermines the copying claim - and at the time of the review I had no knowledge of any alleged copying of manufacturing methods. If that is a claim Todd wishes to make, let him make it. I am sure he can do so and back that up with factual materials to support that claim. It would have been nice had he done that several years ago when the review was published. But all I ever heard was how fat I was. I assure you, I would have been much more interested in details of this alleged copying. Sadly, he chose not to take that route.

If Todd's claim is that Schoolcraft stole HOW to make the gaffs from him, that is an interesting one but out of the scope of the review of the specific product if only because that claim had not ever, to my knowledge, been made. The only claim of Todd's of which I was aware was that he felt the type of gimmick was proprietary to him. Given the lineage of ideas and permission granted, that claim is dubious.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 5th, 2014, 4:16 pm

Pressly Guitar holds the patent on "Copper Silver Brass" as issued in 1972. I think he only allowed Johnson Products to manufacture it.
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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Ted M » May 5th, 2014, 4:45 pm

Since it's easier to argue textual matters when the text is present, here's the actual review from MAGIC Magazine, Jan 2006, pp. 40-41.

http://webpages.charter.net/kinbote/con ... lcraft.pdf

Brad does in fact seem sensitive to the plight of the copied craftsman, at least when discussing the flipper coin:

"[Schoolcraft's] innovations with classic gaffs have been copied by others, but somehow he manages to stay one step ahead of the game."

"Schoolcraft came up with this innovation two years ago. Sadly, it has been copied by other coin makers without credit, let alone permission."

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby merenkov2 » May 5th, 2014, 5:39 pm

What a fascinating turn this thread has taken. Todd, you seem to be focusing here on one particular set of gimmicked coins that you feel you have special creative rights to. Yet your website (as well as Schoolcraft’s) features many kinds of gimmicked coins and sets, such as: Copper/Silver/Brass; Scotch and Soda; Sun and Moon; Ramsay stacks; Karate coins; Slippery Sam; etc. So who exactly is the originator of each of these, and do you guys expressly obtain licenses to manufacture them? And do you send the creators or their estates a portion of your sales? From a purely legal point of view, it would appear that only Pressley Guitar’s position regarding CSB is unassailable (so I assume you’re at least sending Pressley his fair share for each CSB set you sell?). But everything else seems to be fair game, and everyone is borrowing from everyone. It’s hard to feel sympathy for any of you in this realm, but perhaps my perception of all this is wrong.

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Re: I Join Those Banned from The Magic Cafe

Postby Asser Andersen » May 5th, 2014, 6:15 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Pressly Guitar holds the patent on "Copper Silver Brass" as issued in 1972. I think he only allowed Johnson Products to manufacture it.


The Pressly Guitar patent expired in 1991 (17 years after it was issued). So at least after patent law the "Copper Silver Brass" could be freely copied after that.


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