Geller stoops to a new low

[Bill Duncan]

Can I just say not so much a mystery? The new channels have a vested interest in trading on human tragedy and in creating fear. That's why they're selling the "potential terrorist" angle. It keeps people tuned in for breaking news.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh ... ical-fire/

[Richard Kaufman]

You seem to think that because I am making an objective statement about the status someone has obtained, that this someone condones his present action. It does not.

[Magic Fred]

It's pretty sad and surprising to hear the accolades being heaped upon Geller in this forum. And even more so the reverse for Randi. I think Houdini would be rolling in his grave.

Everything Geller has attained in his career is based upon deceiving and taking advantage of people in the worst possible way. I am truly astonished that you people are swooning over a man who claims psychic powers to find a plane full of missing people or kids on milk cartons. It's despicable. Houdini thought so. Randi thinks so, and Penn and Teller think so. They stopped doing seances early on in their careers and made a pact that they would never take advantage of people in that way.

If Geller is indeed the best close-up magician of the 20th century, than it is even sadder that he can't attain that status based on doing magic alone. More famous than Randi? "Not even a contest"? Sure, it's easy when you take the low road. You may characterize Randi has "having a cult" and "preaching dogma," but that's nothing, nothing, compared to what Geller does.

I agree with the original subject of this thread. How can he sleep at night? How can you, Geller defenders?

PS - I saw Randi perform and lecture years ago. He was mesmerizing, thoughtful and kind. A real class act.

THANK you.

And anyone saying that Geller is the greatest magician of the 20th century really needs to get his head out of his arse. By that criteria, my vote goes to Pope John Paul II; same methods but much more successful.

[Diego]

"World's Greatest", does not always also mean/mirror being the world's most ethical or good person.
The best 3 card monte workers I have seen did not perform at any magic club or entertainment venue, but were in Times Square in the 1970's, where a wrong move could result in arrest, injury or death.
One person who is regarded by many around the world as the world's greatest magician, knowing his person dealings, reminded me of George Jessel saying, "Al Jolson was the greatest performer of his age, and the worst S.O.B. that I ever knew."

If you have ever seen Geller perform in person, and take a room full of people from their place to his reality, you would marvel at his skill and power. You have not experienced real showmanship, until you have seen a thousand people rise half out of their seats in wonder, transfixed as a key bends a quarter of an inch. Geller can do more with a spoon, than most could do with a barn full of illusions.

Though Geller wisely does not say if the passengers are alive, hostage, or dead, I am still a little surprised that he went near this at all, knowing the bad press it can generate, regardless of the outcome.

[Magic Fred]

"World's Greatest", does not always also mean/mirror being the world's most ethical or good person.
The best 3 card monte workers I have seen did not perform at any magic club or entertainment venue, but were in Times Square in the 1970's, where a wrong move could result in arrest, injury or death.
One person who is regarded by many around the world as the world's greatest magician, knowing his person dealings, reminded me of George Jessel saying, "Al Jolson was the greatest performer of his age, and the worst S.O.B. that I ever knew."

If you have ever seen Geller perform in person, and take a room full of people from their place to his reality, you would marvel at his skill and power. You have not experienced real showmanship, until you have seen a thousand people rise half out of their seats in wonder, transfixed as a key bends a quarter of an inch. Geller can do more with a spoon, than most could do with a barn full of illusions.

Though Geller wisely does not say if the passengers are alive, hostage, or dead, I am still a little surprised that he went near this at all, knowing the bad press it can generate, regardless of the outcome.

And the Pope doesn't even need a spoon. He must be the greatest magician ever.

Phoney faith healers routinely garner such reactions by utilising exactly the same methods, are we to hold them up as greats in the history of our art too?

I mean, if you ever saw Peter Popoff take a room full of people from their place to his reality, you would marvel at his skill and power. You have not experienced showmanship until you have seen a thousand people rise out of their seats in wonder, transfixed as a blind person sees, or a cripple walks... Popoff can do more with his showmanship and a simple radio than most could do with a barn of illusions...

Pulease.

[Bill Duncan]

Telling people the lies they want to hear does not make a man great. It makes him small.

[Gordon Meyer]

Our little world has become one where we pretend to do the impossible, then immediately admit we're faking it, often in the very next breath. Geller is a magician who's not afraid of Magic. So yeah, I agree that he's one of the greatest of our time. I'm sorry I didn't get to attend the bash and meet him in person.

[Syd]

Geller is the greatest close-up magician of the 20th century. No question. The most well known by far, whose feats have entered pop culture. I don't want to sound like his PR guy, but there's no question about that. Most lay people know who Uri Geller is. Who would know the name of James Randi? It's not even a contest.

And to answer your question, I won't be throwing another Genii Bash.

Richard and Brad are right. My guess is that more people have heard of Uri Geller than Penn and Teller. Yes, that is only a guess. But he is well known and incredible at manipulation.

[Tim Ellis]

How can Geller be called the greatest magician if he doesn't call himself a magician?

[Richard Kaufman]

It doesn't matter what he calls himself. WE know that he is a close-up magician. It doesn't matter if he doesn't admit it. Not admitting it is part of his presenation and persona and he's been a damn sight more successful as an entertainer and performer than anyone else in our field with the exceptions of David Copperfield and Doug Henning.

He is the only person to have achieved worldwide fame on a level near equal to Houdini's, which is ironic since he and Houdini would have been at loggerheads.

Magic Fred: it would have been kinder if you told me to stick my head in the sand rather than in my ass. My head has never been in either place, so you'll have to enlighten me as to the view.

[P.T.Widdle]

How come people here keep mentioning how famous Geller is as a way to justify his actions? Do you really believe he would be as famous as he is if he was simply a magician? Make no mistake. It is precisely because Uri Geller labels himself a psychic that he has achieved his fame, not because of his amazing close-up abilities. It is unfair and insulting to compare his career with Penn & Teller, Randi, Houdini, Copperfield and Henning, all of whom made their reputations as magicians. i am almost incredulous that magicians on this forum lump Geller into that former prestigious group of individuals.

I really wish I could find that interview with Penn & Teller where they explain with heartbreaking details why they chose not to do seances anymore in their careers. Perhaps it was in Genii. They saw how it f-ed up peoples' hearts and heads in the worst possible way. Houdini also saw it. And yet certain magicians here continue to hold up a cheap psychic's fame as some sort of magical achievement.

[Richard Kaufman]

He has been so successful and famous precisely because he will not admit he's a magician. There is no law that you must demystify what you do.

[Richard Kaufman]

Why do you keep bringing up seances? Geller doesn't do seances.

[P.T.Widdle]

He has been so successful and famous precisely because he will not admit he's a magician.

And that does not bother you? It did for Penn & Teller, who said that what they were doing was so powerful, people still believed in their powers even when they started telling them it was tricks. That is when they knew they had to stop. Do you honestly see a difference between seances and what Geller does (claiming to know where a lost flight of people is)?

You're right, Richard. There is no law telling psychics that they must "demystify." There is only ethics and morality.

And by the way, I respectfully find it hypocritical of you to tear Criss Angel a new one for his cadaver stunt, but practically brush off what Geller did with the plane. In fact, I'd say Geller's stunt was far worse, because he was giving relatives of real people in horrible distress hope, while Angel's victims were no one in particular.

[Richard Kaufman]

No, it does not bother me that Geller doesn't announce he's a magician before he does a magic trick. It's a performance choice.

If you would read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that I said that I felt he stepped over the line regarding what he said about the missing airplane. I think it was a bad idea for him to become involved in this at all. He's now in a no-win situation and it makes him look bad.

[MJE]

No, it does not bother me that Geller doesn't announce he's a magician before he does a magic trick. It's a performance choice.

If you would read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that I said that I felt he stepped over the line regarding what he said about the missing airplane. I think it was a bad idea for him to become involved in this at all. He's now in a no-win situation and it makes him look bad.

I just looked again at what's been going on, and I still don't see how he can be blamed for anything. He's asking his "psychic" fans to help, if they can. So far, I have not seen him say that he can do ANYTHING about this.

As far as him ever coming clean and announcing that he's a magician, what would that solve? We all know that there are people who wouldn't buy it. He has created a charcater....a very successful character.....that will never completly go away. People still believe in the Loch Ness Monster, the Bermuda Triangle, and Bigfoot all these years after each has been documented as a hoax. I'm STILL a fan of the Cardiff giant!

In this case I don't see him doing anything wrong, unless I'm missing something. Last I checked, asking for help with a problem was not a crime.

-MJ

[Tim Ellis]

If I decided to use close up magic techniques to become a psychic surgeon, and became internationally famous as a psychic surgeon... would I still be considered a great magician even though I (like Uri) denied using magic techniques and claimed my powers were genuine and proven through scientific testing?

I think it's wonderful for Uri that he has become a household name, though it has taken him what most consider a totally unethical path to get there. But what niggles at the back of my mind is the millions of dollars people have wasted in research trying to investigate the paranormal abilities he claimed to have based on... magic tricks...

If somebody claimed they had a cure for cancer, but faked the whole thing, then encouraged scientists to test them and spent countless hours and millions of dollars examining their cure... I personally would consider that to be very unethical and I would feel very sorry for the cancer patients given false hope and possibly allowed to die because research time and money was being spent on a dead end.

I feel that a tremendous amount of research has been initiated into 'ESP' and the likes based purely on the magic tricks Uri Geller performed... all because he was quite willing to claim they were "real".

[Magic Fred]

He has been so successful and famous precisely because he will not admit he's a magician. There is no law that you must demystify what you do.

This describes the pope to a tee. He may not use sleight of hand (does Geller?) but the whole thing is certainly surrounded in deception, theatre and showmanship.

Besides, there certainly HAVE been "pope men" who directly took advantage of sleight of hand as part of their schtick in convincing millions of people that they had powers denied to the rest of us. Sathya Sai Baba is one example. Does he come in as the second or third greatest magician of all time?

Sorry but I just have slightly different criteria by which to judge a "great magician." Woo woo, showmanship and "being famous" just aren't enough.

[Brad Henderson]

do you judge them by the number of sequins on their coat or how many orben lines they use in their act?

[Jonathan Townsend]

do you judge them by ...?

Did they leave with a story about "they did something" or a story about "i believe something"?

[Brad Henderson]

if only.

[Jonathan Townsend]

if only.

For a hypothesis to merit consideration - it's the "how to know if not". Falsification. It's more than a craft of proffering the specious.

[Brad Henderson]

we are on the same page here JT

I just was commenting that 'if only' magicians would judge on levels beyond 'I didn't see his pass' or 'I don't know how he did that version of the trick that I have done for years even though I as a magician am the only one who can see a difference'.

may as well judge based on the stenciling of the props, the tightness of the corner joints, and the metal content of the sequins.

[Richard Kaufman]

Tim, you have a convenient way of adding unnecessary baggage into a conversation.

Geller doesn't do psychic surgery or claim to heal sick people, so don't imply that he does. So-called "psychic surgeons" are NOT magicians. Someone who bends a spoon or makes the needle on a compass mysteriously move, IS a magician.

[Magic Fred]

we are on the same page here JT

I just was commenting that 'if only' magicians would judge on levels beyond 'I didn't see his pass' or 'I don't know how he did that version of the trick that I have done for years even though I as a magician am the only one who can see a difference'.

may as well judge based on the stenciling of the props, the tightness of the corner joints, and the metal content of the sequins.

Yes because this is precisely what is implied when someone says that Geller just doesn't cut it as a "great magician" in their view. Compulsive patronizing, by the way, seems to just be another unfortunate side effect of being a magician.

Anyway, if you want to put up a rebuttal of some substance, you might want to explain if (and if not, why not) you would hold up Sathya Sai Baba in the same light as a great magician.

Geller demonstrates all the skills of a great showman and publicity hound (the same skills necessary to be a successful fraud and charlatan) but I would submit that his success has come exclusively as a result of the reactions of the gullible and feeble-minded (don't worry, YOU don't think it's real so this is not patronizing, right?)

His shtick is ONLY compelling if you actually believe it's real. If you don't, he just comes across as an arse. NOT the characteristics of a "great magician" in my submission.

[mrgoat]

Geller is the greatest close-up magician of the 20th century.

No, he is the greatest fraudulent, lying sack of [censored] of the 20th century. He has made his money conning people. What he does should be illegal.

[mrgoat]

Geller doesn't claim to heal sick people, so don't imply that he does.

Really?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client= ... &gws_rd=cr

[Syd]

I quick review of your link indicates that he tries to help people realize that their own mind can help heal themselves. Something well supported by experts.

[P.T.Widdle]

http://www.timeout.com/london/comedy/pe ... -interview

"Luckily Teller shares this rationalist worldview: ‘It was the reason for us getting together,’ says Penn. ‘When I was 12, I saw a guy called Kreskin on TV doing scientific experiments on ESP. He sold a kit and I had my parents buy me this piece of [censored]. Then one day I found a magic book that explained what Kreskin was doing was just a magic trick. I was flooded with rage and embarrassment. I went out of my f-ing mind. If this guy’s lying to me, maybe Einstein is! Maybe Newton was a lying sack of sh*t! Later, my hatred moved on to magicians. If I’d met Teller and he’d been doing anything that had involved any mystical-type thing, we wouldn’t even have had a conversation. It was only after I met The Amazing Randi that I became aware that you could do magic and tell people it’s just tricks. Even now I hate those magicians who claim to read body language, or use psychology or feats of memory in their acts – it’s just bullsh*t, man.’
It’s a childhood experience that was vivid and painful enough to fuel a lifetime’s work in exposing the mechanics behind illusion. ‘The two things I want to do are: lie to you and have you know I’m telling the truth. It’s really important. Society needs experts in lying who they can trust. Scientists can be easily fooled because they’re not used to working with complicated human interactions. Test tubes don’t lie to you. That’s why scientists couldn’t work out that Uri Geller was doing tricks a first-year magic student could do; they don’t have that in their culture. That’s where we come in."

[Magic Fred]

I quick review of your link indicates that he tries to help people realize that their own mind can help heal themselves. Something well supported by experts.

Now you're REACHING. You really must WANT for him not to sound like a complete arse. If you really want it, if you really believe it, here Geller is really just advocating positive thinking and stress reduction techniques:

Super psychic Uri Geller reveals he used his amazing powers to heal Vice President Al Gore's son after the youngster was hit by a car and critically injured.

Geller psychically energised his own son's teddy bear and sent it to 6 year old Albert Gore - and the boy made a stunningly quick recovery!

"You can put good vibrations into things and the energies I implanted into the teddy boosted the child's own healing powers," declared Geller.

[Chris Aguilar]

[Tom Pilling]

Well, it seems that despite the best efforts of psychics everywhere, wreckage has been found in the Indian Ocean by non-psychic airplanes, with everybody's lives almost certainly lost. How utterly terrifying for them, and how drastically awful for their families.

Assuming that Jeff Busby was not on board, given that he is deceased already, perhaps this thread will now quieten down.

[Brad Henderson]

I wrote this for a PM to JT. I think it may be worth repeating here.

there is a difference between skill (the capacity to realize intention) and taste (the intention itself).

I hate vegetables. They creep me out. Yet I realize there may be great salads out there and experts at making them. There may be even great chefs who only make salads. Thankfully I am not so blinded by my own taste (limitations) to suggest that no chef should make a salad

There are many who feel the same way about blue material in magic - believing that if red Skelton didn't do it on TV it isn't worth doing.

Re skill there is no doubt Geller is an amazing magician.

re taste - we can have a valid discussion.

As Picasso said - all art is a lie which reveals the truth.

do we blame the artist when the audience confuses his painting for the actual landscape?

is the Line that gets crossed the frame? Can an artist not intentionally blur that line, that frame?

Penn and Teller and a group of which I was apart had an intense discussion about this issue. Penn felt (at that time) that anything within the bounds of the proscenium arch was fine. They make false claims in their show all the time - such as all psychics are scam artists. There comic/comedy book booktest is a lie - they are not doing what they claim. However the difference may be they keep the lies on the stage. (Usually. They play the "magicians hate us card" which implies a truth beyond the stage. At this convention in which this meeting occurred most could not get close to either of them for the adoring magicians fans.)

I am glad there are magicians for whom Penn and Teller's taste runs so congruently with their own. How sad they would want to force everyone into the same mindset.

re: taste we can discuss merits. but I believe that when an artist has an intent (having an intent is critical) and realizes that intent successfully it is my duty to support the right of that artist AS AN ARTIST to do so - even if I disagree with that intent.

Penn and Teller are excellent at what they do.
Uri Geller is excellent at what he does.

To deny either their due as skilled performers is ignorant or self servingly closed minded (especially when most of the same people holding pitch forks would pee all over themselves for a chance to sit next to a real card cheat or street hustler.)

Not saying you have to LIKE what they do - just don't deny them that they are good at doing what they do. Heck, if they weren't - would we even be talking about them?

[Magic Fred]

I don't think anybody was arguing that Geller isn't great at what he does. The argument is about what he does. Surely, Charles Manson is rather good at what he does too? No?

I'm perfectly happy to declare that Geller is good at what he does. My objection is against him being labelled as a "great magician."

A great magician's performance can be enjoyed and appreciated for what it is, even when the audience knows "the secret" but I submit, again, that Geller comes across as a complete arsehole to those who do not believe there is something "supernatural" going on. This is not the mark of a great magician.

And those who are "in the know" and still admire him or hold him up as a "great magician" should explain how he differs from Sathya Sai Baba or anybody else who happens to use a few magician's techniques to help create the false impression of supernatural powers.

[Brad Henderson]

a magician is an actor who creates the illusion of having supernatural powers - but Geller is a bad magician for doing this so well that people are actually willing to believe him?!?

When I go to almost any other theatrical experience, the participants do not jump up and down reminding me at every turn that the blood is fake and that the sun is really just a bunch of lighting elements.

Kids used to watch superman and then jump from windows wearing red caped costumes thinking it gave them the power of flight.

Do we blame George Reeves for their deaths? Do we blame Marilyn Manson because some people confuse his character for a role model?

Sure - the choice to be a REAL magician, which is a full time choice, is a controversial one. Some may see that as insulting. I see it as exhilarating. Uri has proven his commitment to it - even through controversial situations. Time has proven it effective.

Is there a difference between the artist whose work ends up influencing people in unexpected directions and the conman who begins with the intention to steal? What of the magician who uses his skills merely to try to get women to sleep with him (as misguided as that may be)? What about to win over a client? or to make one seem more interesting than they may really be?

We are all a bunched of damned liars. You just think some lies are more important than others.

Maybe so.

some people's morality may suggest one break character when the heat gets to high. But what temperature is that, exactly? Is it the moment when the audience might think what they saw you do was real?

Sorry - I'm not willing to under cut the power of my performances by squawking "it's a trick" every time someone starts perhaps to (make) believe. Sure, there IS a line. But who gets to draw it? You?

Sorry - I'm not interested in being limited by YOUR morality. Nor should you be limited by mine.

Penn and teller hate tricks that have supernatural overtones - but there are a lot more and different people in the world than just penn, teller, and those who agree with them.

[Tom Pilling]

That is all well and good, Brad, but I'm fine with my morality when it comes to generating publicity off the back of a lost plane with 227 people on board. You stick with yours, I'll stick with mine, and I dare say Fred will stick with his. Uri Geller, on the other hand, seems not to have a moral compass as to this issue.

If someone wants to lump spoon bending and psychically searching for dead bodies together, far be it for me to interfere. I'll just vomit quietly in the corner, so to speak.

[PapaG]

Magic Fred, P.T. Widdle and Tom Pilling: I have nothing more to add to what's been said other than to say I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Jonathan Townsend]

The deal we make is that the stuff we present in the show stays in the show. If the audience is taking anything more than a memory of enjoying the show and some tales to tell about "and then the guy..." ... there's something more going on.

The "Line" is not the frame - whether the character they meet in the show is a psychic with powers, a time machine, alien technology and close encounters with other dimensions it's still supposed to be contained in the show.

The terms mountebank and charlatan may be antique but they do carry the ideas of someone selling a fraudulent product or seeking to persuade others though use of fraudulent argument/evidence for ability or circumstance.

It's not so much what the audience is led to believe during the show but what they walk out believing about the world outside the show that seems the issue here.

What's real and you don't wish to see operates without regard to whether or not you are watching.

[P.T.Widdle]

“vultures who prey on the bereaved.” - Harry Houdini

[Magic Fred]

I don't know if Brad is missing the point and avoiding the pertinent questions intentionally or not.

It is being argued that Geller is NOT a great magician, not because he is not good at what he does but because what he is doing is not the mark of a great magician. A great charlatan and fraudster? Perhaps.

I submit, yet again, that it is not any aspect of his performance related to magic whatsoever that has earned him his fame (or infamy if you prefer) and that his shtick is no better "an illusion" than that of Popoff or Sai Baba... again I ask you to differentiate if you disagree... they just happen to use a few tools of the magician, but that does not make them great magicians. All three are performers, all three prey on the gullible and all three appear as scummy little arseholes to those who do not believe they ACTUALLY have supernatural powers.

The mark of a great magician? Nope.