RED by Craig Petty

[Tom Pilling]

Apparently, this is the same trick as Bob King's 'New Wave Prediction'.

My fault was to pre-judge it as a rip-off of 'Second Sight', by the late, great Ron Wilson.

It seems that no answer is forthcoming, either from the author or producer.


What says the Genii?

[Richard Kaufman]

"Second Sight" was Ron's reinvention of a much older trick. As Max Maven noted somewhere recently, the trick has been reinvented half a dozen times by various people.

[mrgoat]

It's been confirmed by multiple sources that it is exactly the same effect, only rather than put the number of cards that corresponds with the selection in to the spec's pocket, he puts them in the card case. Oh, and there is a DVD.

Oh, and it's twice as much and was promoted with a HORRIBLY misleading trailer.

The best bit is Petty had the biggest go at McBride for releasing a trick someone else had come up with last year.

Wayne Dobson scandal.
McBride scandal.
NWP scandal.

Seems that once a year they do something that should get them blackballed, and yet they carry on.

Unless, of course, this once a year scandal is deliberate to get them attention...

[Doomo]

Well, it is going to be quietly ignored. Too many people get reviewed over there. It is like the Blackpool situation.

[Tom Pilling]

Richard, yes, quite right. He talked about it in self-deprecating terms in the lovely, filmed interview which came with his memoirs. But, as I said, I was erroneous in thinking that 'RED' was a take on 'Second Sight'. It is, in fact, practically identical to NWP. I guess one could argue that NWP is generic, in some way. But, it is rather procedural, as I recall: quite specific....

Damian, YES.

Tony, double-YES.

Oh well.



(I'm not accusing Mr Petty of deliberate plagiarism, but he does tend to get on his high horse about people releasing tricks without doing their research.)

[Tom Gilbert]

It appears that someone found a post from 2005, on the Magic Bunny, in which Petty gave New Wave Prediction top spot on his favorite gimmicked effects list.

[Tom Pilling]

Yes, it is rather depressing. From a thread on one's favourite gaffed and ungaffed tricks:

"Gimmicked:

1. New Wave Prediction

2. Just Name It

3 - Invisible Deck

Ungimmicked

1. Paperclipped

2. Ambitious Card

3 - Triumph

Craig"

[Posted on MagicBunny.co.uk, Sun July 03, 2005, 7:24 pm]

I understand they are experiencing something of a spike in membership.

[mrgoat]

It appears that someone found a post from 2005, on the Magic Bunny, in which Petty gave New Wave Prediction top spot on his favorite gimmicked effects list.

Oh god, oh god. I am peeing laughing so much.

What a horrible little [censored] of a man.

How many things does he have to do before he is blackballed from the magic community?

a) The Dobson bullying
b) The McBride disaster
c) Him totally lying about blatantly stealing someone else's trick AND selling it with a horribly misleading trailer

What a despicable scrote.

They usually have a stand at The Session convention, which is next week, I do hope it's boycotted and they don't sell a thing.

[Tom Pilling]

Someone should probably take along some chips to go with all that egg on their faces.

Craig Petty: redefining chutzpah, one day at a time.

I am looking forward to the rationalisation that will be doubtless forthcoming. 'Looking forward', as in peeking through my fingers whilst cringing horribly.

[mrgoat]

I am looking forward to the rationalisation that will be doubtless forthcoming. 'Looking forward', as in peeking through my fingers whilst cringing horribly.

I predict:

He gets sacked from WMS, then says

It wasn't me, it was the owner of WMS who made me do it.

[Tom Pilling]

The old "I was only obeying orders" gambit, eh? You may well be right, Damian. But we all know how well that one plays out.

[mrgoat]

Other forums are going crazy over this.

The lack of posts here surprises me.

Is the silence everyone accepting this as acceptable.

[Tom Pilling]

Perhaps it is too sordid for some? I don't know.

This is a link to what Bob King has written on the Penguin Magic website:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/q/red-new-w ... 5a7e0a46b0

In case it vanishes, it says:

"How can you sell a trick that was stolen from me? I put this out 20 years ago. If you check the Magic Cafe Forum, you'll find folks who own both and say they are identical. Also, below is Craig Petty's own 2003* list of favorite tricks. Guess which one is at the top? [...]"

He then pastes the relevant quote from Magic Bunny.

Ho hum.

*Actually more recently than that. 2005, to be precise.

[Brad Henderson]

I don't think the silence here exists because of accepting theft. The magic cafe is fueled by people seeking fame as magicians whose only credentials are often posting on forums or 'creating' magic for magicians. Members of the genii forum, being generally more informed, have largely ignored these flash in the pans; having leanred from experience most of their offerings to be rehashes of older published ideas. I just don't think petty and red are on their radar.

I had a run in with penn years ago when he released refraction and claimed to have obtained Ted Lesley's blessing, which according to Ted's American rep he had not. As late as the previous to last years magic live, penn was still trying to rewrite history regarding that incident. As WMS owner Jim Trainer threatened to sue over the review (among other things) I am happy I had the foresight to save those email exchanges.

I would suggest to Bob King and anyone who deals with penn or WMS to record all calls and save all emails. From the Dobson incident it seems clear penn is willing to do the same, apparently with the intent to bully and entrap.

If anyone knows Bob, you might want to give him that advice. From their behavior it seems as if they will do anything to serve their own ends, even if it harms others.

[Tom Pilling]

I say, I say, I say! What's the definition of chutzpah?

The boy who pleaded guilty to murdering his parents. When he was brought to trial, he asked the judge for clemency on the grounds of only recently having been orphaned.

In other news, Penguin, Saturn, Vanishing Inc., and MJM have all withdrawn this product.

World Magic Shop are still selling it.

[Tom Pilling]

[...] I would suggest to Bob King and anyone who deals with penn or WMS to record all calls and save all emails. From the Dobson incident it seems clear penn is willing to do the same, apparently with the intent to bully and entrap.

If anyone knows Bob, you might want to give him that advice. From their behavior it seems as if they will do anything to serve their own ends, even if it harms others.

Hi Brad,

It's always irritating when barrack room lawyers pop up on these forums, and I am not one of them, honest! I can say, from sad personal experience which is unrelated to magic, that in England, where WMS is registered and where David Penn resides, there is literally nothing to be gained by recording conversations without informing the other party. It is inadmissible as evidence, plain and simple. The only thing Penn did, by behaving in that way, was to put himself at risk from the CPS [Crown Prosecution Service]. i.e. If one records conversations covertly, then uses them as leverage, it is a criminal offence, even over a magic trick.

What the police and the CPS take into account is the upset caused by such actions, which are in effect blackmail.

But then, as your experience suggests, David Penn is not the sharpest razor in the box. I remember thinking at the time of the Dobson/McBride debacle, WMS is either not taking legal advice, or they have cheap, second-rate advisors.

Far from being below the radar of Genii members, they have both generated important sales and also destroyed sales for many magic creators, on both sides of the pond. I think that is Damian's point. But he will speak for himself, I'm sure.

Best,

Tom.

[Richard Kaufman]

In many parts of the United States it is illegal to record your conversation with another party, whether it's in person, on the phone, or whatever, without the permission of both participants. The act in an of itself is illegal, regardless of what is said.

[Brad Henderson]

Tom, my advice to Bob has less to do with legal reason and more to preserve an accurate history of what happened lest years from now penn tries to rewrite history in his favor. Also so that he and others cannot twist words around in order to influence the court of popular opinion.

And while WMS penn and petty seem to have an impact on the cafe, I don't ever recall either of them being referenced here often (controversies aside). Hence my claim regarding their relevance to members of this forum. What you say is true, it just seems the informed magician one might find here is not their target demographic, hence the lack of enthusiastic response.

[Brad Henderson]

in many states, however, only one person need consent.

please note: I NEVER said to record the conversations illegally - just to record the conversations.

if that requires the second parties consent and they refuse, i would insist on only text communications going forward.

I've danced with those devils. Just trying to keep King from have his toes stepped on.

[Tom Pilling]

In many parts of the United States it is illegal to record your conversation with another party, whether it's in person, on the phone, or whatever, without the permission of both participants. The act in an of itself is illegal, regardless of what is said.

That sounds nice and tight to me. I think how it works here is that the first party, let's call him 'David', for the sake of argument, calls the second party, whom we will call 'Wayne', and says,

"Before we go any further I have to inform you that I am making an audio recording of this conversation. Do you understand, and are you still willing to speak to me?"

'Wayne' would then have to say, "Yes, I understand, let's talk," for it to be of any use to anyone. The best thing that 'Wayne' could do is to hang up. The next best thing is to call back, having set up his own recording device, whilst talking on speaker-phone with a witness present.

Life is sad, isn't it?

Brad - I hear you, man. Point taken.

[Tom Pilling]

I have one final, unsolicited comment to make on this.

At the green place, there is a feeling that due to a newsflash in December regarding Craig Petty's son being in hospital [I don't know why], that he should be cut all possible slack.

I disagree.

Being a father of three children, I have spent many hours in hospitals, particularly when they were babies. It still happens from time to time. We worry about our kids, sometimes unnecessarily.

The most my business suffers is from my phone being off while we're in A&E, or on a ward. On one occasion I was off air for 24 hours. It's that thing about being self-employed and having a family; you have to keep on working.

I wish Mr Petty's family all good health and long lives, naturally. But life goes on. I'm quite sure he is doing his shows without a hiccup. This release, which has generated tens of thousands of views at the green place, and nearing nine hundred here, is business.

Get on with it, Mr Petty.

[J-Mac]

Just FYI, permission is never required in the US to record telephone conversations. (Exception for law enforcement) Only notification. If the party on the other end is notified about the recording they might say "you don’t have my permission" but that means nothing; if you don’t wish to be recorded then once notified your only option to to end the call.

On the other hand, if you do not notify the other party and you are in a two-party state, you cannot use the recording in any official proceeding, e.g., in court.

Jim

[Ross Welford]

The Cafe has been shut down all day. Perhaps just a coincidence, but WMS and Brooks are pretty tight, by all accounts. Usually, though, they just delete the relevant thread (relevant=vaguely disobliging to someone).

THis whole thing is fairly hilarious. Popcorn, anyone?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Questions of provenance, permissions etc can be addressed by thorough research of the entire publisher's line and its context within the larger literature. Just how much "appropriated" is acceptable - and to whom?

Crowd-sourcing the research and publication of the findings for all and sundry may help disinfect the matter with relevant daylight.

Sold secrets are reputation makers. What's your reputation?

[Magic Fred]

Questions of provenance, permissions etc can be addressed by thorough research of the entire publisher's line and its context within the larger literature. Just how much "appropriated" is acceptable - and to whom?

Crowd-sourcing the research and publication of the findings for all and sundry may help disinfect the matter with relevant daylight.

Sold secrets are reputation makers. What's your reputation?

Seriously, do you just put every word separately through a thesaurus and trust that the outcome will be intelligible?

[user_241]

Just so everyone is up to date, Craig posted up a response on the cafe:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... art=540#28

Posted: Jan 7, 2014 9:28am
Craig Petty

Firstly I would like to say how deeply embarrassed I am with this situation.

What you are posting on here I deserve and profoundly apologies. There are no excuses, but I would never intentionally release someone else’s effect without proper credit. Anybody that has seen one of my previous releases will know that I am passionate about crediting. I have been releasing magic too long to know that if a move, idea or concept has been used before there is always somebody who will bring it to the communities attention. This is why I would not intentionally publish someone else’s material without proper credit as well as my own moral conscience.

I 'came up' with Red two years ago and when people started mentioning, firstly an effect by Ron Wilson and then New Wave Prediction, I would have sworn on a stack of bibles that Red was an independent creation despite similarities.

The most likely thing that's happened, is that ten years ago I did a trick and then stopped doing it and then years later I 'reinvented it'. However this is what's driving me crazy, as I don't remember. The other option, is my business partner at the time posted as me on magic bunny, as we used the same computer frequently, but that seems unlikely.

I know this sort of thing has happened before in the magic world, but it has never happened to me this has certainly made me think twice about going on a ‘rant’. Once again I apologise if I have let anybody down.

I know that World Magic Shop are in communication with Bob King regarding this issue and I will fully support them whilst they hopefully resolve this.

Craig

[Doomo]

Craig said under the RED thread that someone else posted under his name on the magic bunny thread... I mean really. That is up there with something my daughter said when she was a kid.... We got a huge phone bill... The calls were to a friend of hers in another state... Always made when Rose and I were out... Her explanation... Someone else must have made the calls...

Yeah...

[mrgoat]

His advisor really should have not told him to put the bit in about someone else posting the thing on Magic Bunny.

[Tom Pilling]

I had written something really witty about this, but then the dog ate it, and there was a hurricane, and locusts, and plague, and a fire, and, and...

Well, it might have been my wife who wrote it, but it's unlikely.

[Tom Gilbert]

Good analogy Tony. Using a mystery person, posting under and signing your name is quite lame for an excuse.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...

Seriously, do you just put every word separately through a thesaurus and trust that the outcome will be intelligible?

No. I trust the active reader and those with differing opinion to offer cogent counterargument in dialog.

Show me a post here on genii which addresses this issue ("reinvention" and sale of items into the market) with a better solution.

Not a great fan of giving up our literature to a crowd-sourced vetting project.

[Jonathan Townsend]

This is why I would not intentionally publish someone else’s material without proper credit as well as my own moral conscience.

Obtaining permission might be part of acting upon one's moral conscience. Especially when selling 'secrets'.

[Tom Pilling]

This is why I would not intentionally publish someone else’s material without proper credit as well as my own moral conscience.

Obtaining permission might be part of acting upon one's moral conscience. Especially when selling 'secrets'.

Well said, Jonathan.

[Richard Kaufman]

I've seen this happen before, and it's not uncommon. You read something, forget about it (no matter how great you thought it was at the time) and then years later it pops back into your head and you think it's an invention rather than realizing it's a memory.

The thing to do, of course, is then show it to a bunch of people and find out if it's original. It is this step where where Mr. Petty seems to have fumbled.

The simple solution is to apologize (which he's done) and withdraw the item from the market completely (not sure if this has happened). Then it's over and he's learned his lesson. He'll be a lot more careful in the future.

I can't remember when this happened (ha!), but I've printed the same trick of someone's in Genii twice, by accident, on more than one occasion over the past 15 years. Can't blame anyone but myself, and the pages from the encyclopedia that used to be in my head have either gone blank or fallen out of the binding.

[Magic Fred]

I've seen this happen before, and it's not uncommon. You read something, forget about it (no matter how great you thought it was at the time) and then years later it pops back into your head and you think it's an invention rather than realizing it's a memory.

The thing to do, of course, is then show it to a bunch of people and find out if it's original. It is this step where where Mr. Petty seems to have fumbled.

The simple solution is to apologize (which he's done) and withdraw the item from the market completely (not sure if this has happened). Then it's over and he's learned his lesson. He'll be a lot more careful in the future.

I can't remember when this happened (ha!), but I've printed the same trick of someone's in Genii twice, by accident, on more than one occasion over the past 15 years. Can't blame anyone but myself, and the pages from the encyclopedia that used to be in my head have either gone blank or fallen out of the binding.

I'd hazard a guess though, that you hadn't pubicly and repeatedly crucified others meercilessly for the exact same thing. Ranting and raving that they should do a little research and learn a little history and even going as far as to say that they should go away and never come back for the sin of releasing a trick that wasn't original.

You probably didn't declare that one of the tricks was your all time favourites either.

I'm still on the fence. Is he stupid enough to have reinvented his own favourite trick? The evidence points to probably. Is it reasonable to believe that he then performed it for years, showing it to many knowledgable magicians wihtout any RED flags being raised? Ehm, no.

To be honest, people should be just as miffed at how the trick was marketed, which was an absolute disgrace, especially considering their history.

[Andrew Charles]

I've seen this happen before, and it's not uncommon. You read something, forget about it (no matter how great you thought it was at the time) and then years later it pops back into your head and you think it's an invention rather than realizing it's a memory.

The thing to do, of course, is then show it to a bunch of people and find out if it's original. It is this step where where Mr. Petty seems to have fumbled.

The simple solution is to apologize (which he's done) and withdraw the item from the market completely (not sure if this has happened). Then it's over and he's learned his lesson. He'll be a lot more careful in the future.

I can't remember when this happened (ha!), but I've printed the same trick of someone's in Genii twice, by accident, on more than one occasion over the past 15 years. Can't blame anyone but myself, and the pages from the encyclopedia that used to be in my head have either gone blank or fallen out of the binding.

This is clearly a lot more nefarious than a simple reinvention. The trick itself is not just a handful of standard moves with a normal deck of cards, it's a very specific set of actions that were "reinvented" almost identically. To not have the memory to remember "your favorite card trick" but then remember each particular step of said trick -- a trick that just happens to be essentially off the market and never on put on video -- is particularly convenient.

Unfortunately for Craig, he's going to have an even harder time playing this off as a simple mistake given that he's already been caught in another lie in that thread. In his original post on that thread he states he's been performing this for "many, many years." In his apology this was just something he "reinvented" 2 years ago.

[Tom Stone]

This is clearly a lot more nefarious than a simple reinvention.

Then again, consider Hanlon's Razor.

[Richard Kaufman]

For those who don't click on Tom's link:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

That aside, as a matter of fact I have in the past written heatedly about others not giving credit, and been embroiled in one or two contremps myself. But I've pretty much given up.
Too old, too tired, and TOO MUCH TO DO!

[Tom Pilling]

Then again, consider Hanlon's Razor.

Hmmm. Does it still work if you substitute "greed" for "malice"?

I don't think it does work, personally. But then, I'm no Pangloss.

[Andrew Charles]

This is clearly a lot more nefarious than a simple reinvention.

Then again, consider Hanlon's Razor.

I'll go with occam's razor on this one which would suggest that accute, selective amnesia is not the cause.