Tuskegee Airmen

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houdini's ghost
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Tuskegee Airmen

Postby houdini's ghost » January 13th, 2012, 7:54 pm

Pete Biro saw a clip from the new Lucas production in which an airman is holding up two cards. Pete and I wonder if Emile Clifton is somehow represented in the film. He was a magician (Clifton's Ring Move, etc.) and he won the Distinguished Flying Cross. he was a genuine war hero, and when Pete and I knew him, he had to put up with Jim Crow sh*t all the time.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 14th, 2012, 1:23 am

I can't wait to see this film. The trailer looks fantastic and we all know Lucas is no slouch.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 14th, 2012, 4:12 am

Sorry Pete, but looks are all youre going to get with Lucas these days. With him its all about CGI and nothing more. George Lucas has not been able to tell a good story via film since 1989 (the third Indiana Jones movie). Hes destroyed the Star Wars franchise with Episodes I, II, and III along with screwing around with IV, V, and VI and ruining themnow two times over with the latest release. The fourth Indiana Jones movie is literally a Hollywood joke (jump the shark has been replaced by nuke the fridge). And why retell the story of the Tuskegee Airmen? Oh, thats right: to add a crap-load of CGI and use Hip-Hop stars versus seasoned actors. If I may borrow from and paraphrase another (great) movie: Dont sell Lucas short, Pete: Hes a tremendous slouch.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Terry » January 14th, 2012, 9:13 am

Spot on Dustin.

According to the news, we just lost another of the Tuskegee Airmen last week.

http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/default.aspx

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Magic Newswire » January 14th, 2012, 3:33 pm

I thoroughly enjoyed the first rendition of this film by HBO which featured Laurence Fishburn for many reasons. One of the most significant was that I was an Army Aviator as well, though in the "swing wing" variety as opposed to these guys who were the foundation of what would later become the Air Force. Based upon the clips that I saw, I think that I'll wait for the DVD on this one.

Watch this instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tuskegee_Airmen

Here's a very interesting documentary from PBS as well:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114745/

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 15th, 2012, 9:54 pm

I hate to see folks critique a film they haven't seen yet.

I'll hold my review until I see it.

As far as CGI, if it makes the flying fun to watch... fine by me.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 15th, 2012, 10:05 pm

Stay tooned.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 15th, 2012, 11:57 pm

Pete, when the ingredients are bad, the chef terrible, and the smell coming from the kitchen awful (read: trailer) I do not need to eat the meal to know I will not like it.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 16th, 2012, 2:01 am

Baloney.

George Lucas did not develop the story, nor write the screenplay, nor direct the movie. Statements regarding the Star Wars or Indiana Jones films do not equate with this film.

The quality of the trailer is irrelevant: trailers are cut with an entirely different viewpoint than the film makers may have, using temp music for the score, and may (and often do) give an entirely false impression of what a film is about.

I don't disagree that George Lucas is an arrogant bastard who can neither write nor direct a film. However he neither wrote nor directed this film, and the "ingredients" are a great story, good actors, an untested director, and untested writers. It could be a great film or a turd. Why don't we wait until it opens next Friday before deciding its quality.

And I like Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, so kiss my grits!
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 16th, 2012, 2:27 am

Check into what you're talking about. Lucas has a lot more to do with this movie than you think.

He took over and did what he called "pick-ups" after principle photography finished because....well no one but Lucas knows or is saying why. Production--not preproduction etc., production--has taken two years because Mr. Lucas became directly involved. I smell a turd.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 16th, 2012, 3:55 am

Swell.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 16th, 2012, 11:53 am

Dustin, you are doing what is called in CBT as "Fortune-Telling." Reshoots are very common today. Why don't you just wait until you SEE THE FILM before commenting on its quality? Doesn't that seem reasonable?
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 16th, 2012, 1:56 pm

Because I don't need (let alone want) to see the film. We all make these kinds of subjective decisions about things; and not just about movies, plays, etc., but restaurants, books, TV shows--the list is endless. He was once one of the greatest filmmakers ever, but Lucas has lost it (he's ruined several of his own movies via his "improvements"--and I'm far from alone in that belief), so anything he directly touches is automatically suspect in my view.

His hands are all over this movie, and now he's running around blaming the issues surrounding it on "Hollywood," going so far as calling the industry racist. He's also announced his "retirement." That's the best news I've heard coming out of Hollywood in a very long time--though I'm not sure I believe it.

Could I be wrong about Red Tails? Absolutely. I've gone to movies by people I think are a can't miss and have been disappointed (Spielbergs "AI" for example). But I will not subject myself to a movie by a man who has decided that CGI is more important than story. And that is a fair description of Lucas over the last couple of decades.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 16th, 2012, 2:19 pm

So then you won't go see CARS2, Toy Story etc? :*)
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby mrgoat » January 16th, 2012, 2:21 pm

Pete Biro wrote:So then you won't go see CARS2, Toy Story etc? :*)


Why bother when you can just review something without seeing it. Saves loads of time.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby AJM » January 16th, 2012, 2:24 pm

I've always considered George Lucas to be a quality film-maker.

Howard the Duck (aka Howard: A New Breed of Hero) will give you an idea of the kind of quality I'm talking about...
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 16th, 2012, 2:44 pm

I have not "reviewed" the film. I've reviewed George Lucas's recent work. As such, my expectation for "Red Tails" is that it will stink because of the recent track record of its producer. As noted above, I certainly could be wrong.

Pete, you are mistaking animation for CGI added to a live action film. And I have no problem with CGI. Here's a fine example of a recent film with a lot of CGI: "Hugo." But the difference is that the film's story did not depend on the CGI (or 3D) to carry it. The story was great. The acting was great. The CGI was just there. "Titanic" is another good example. A great story enhanced by CGI but not dependent upon it: There is a big difference. "Starship Troopers" has some awesome CGI and is one of the worst movies I've ever endured.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Stan Willis » January 16th, 2012, 3:19 pm

Pete, I'm wondering if the guy named "Robbie" you mentioned in your Emil Clifton book could actually be the father of Robin Roberts, co-host of Good Morning America. I know she has mentioned on several occasions that her father was in fact a Tuskegee Airman.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Chris Aguilar » January 16th, 2012, 3:20 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:
And I like Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, so kiss my grits!

I enjoyed it too.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Steve Bryant » January 16th, 2012, 4:59 pm

I'm looking forward to seeing Kate Winslet in 3D.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete Biro » January 17th, 2012, 4:48 pm

Stan: I don't think so. Robbie was not an airman, and I think too old to be Robin's father.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 17th, 2012, 8:17 pm

There's a lot about Red Tails here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magaz ... anted=1&hp

Sounds like it's going to be very good.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Said by a reporter on January 17: Lucas doesnt think the studios were being racist in rejecting his all-black action adventure.

Said by Lucas on Jon Stewarts show on January 9 when suggesting why the movie wasnt green enough (a high potential for profit) for Hollywood:

Its because it's an all-black movie. There are no major white roles in it at all. Its one of the first all-black action pictures ever made. He claims that the major distributors would not back it based solely on the profitability of other black movies.

Okay, Ill allow him to walk back the implication of that statement (since Im willing to bet Im not the only one to call him on it). But then he says that the (mostly black) men who fought and died at Fort Wagner during the Civil War arent real heroes. I quote:

Its not Glory where you have a lot of white officers running these guys into cannon fodder [sic]. They [the airmen] were real heroes.

Whatever, Mr. Lucas; I cant wait to read/see/hear how you try to walk that one back.

Enjoy the movie. I honestly hope its good for the sake of the men who lived the real story. The Tuskegee Airmen was a great movie, so theirs is a story that deserves a new and wider audience. But I dont think it should be, to quote Lucas, corny as he describes it is. And, to support my contention that he leans too heavily on CGI and less on story, I quote the NYT reporter that it is a movie loaded with special effects like no one had seen before. Yep, thats his focus. But I will say this for Lucas, his girlfriend is a beauty!

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete McCabe » January 17th, 2012, 10:43 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:But then he says that the (mostly black) men who fought and died at Fort Wagner during the Civil War arent real heroes.


This is a pretty outrageous thing to accuse George Lucas of saying. I saw the show and he absolutely did not say that the men who fought at Fort Wagner aren't real heroes.

He didn't say it in the show and he doesn't say it in your quote.

I wouldn't mind seeing you walk this one back.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 17th, 2012, 11:45 pm

Watch the video. Listen to the inflection in his voice. "They were real heroes" coupled with what he said about the film "Glory" absolutely implies that. I have nothing to walk back. He said it, not me.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Brad Henderson » January 18th, 2012, 12:03 am

I saw the interview. I took him to be discussing the MOVIES and the roles there in, not the HISTORY and the roles thereof.

In Tuskegee the CHARACTERS are portrayed as heros - the center of the story. In Glory, the characters were treated as fodder, the starring, heroic roles were for white actors.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:25 am

I will quote Mr. Lucas in full to prove my assessment, Brad; that the context of his comment was to history, not just movies (they are the definitely the airmen in his comment):

I wanted to make it inspirational for teenage boys. I wanted to show that they have heroes; that theyre real American heroes, that they were patriots that helped make the country what it is today and its not Glory where you have a lot of white officers running these guys into cannon fodder. Its like a realthey were real heroes.

PS: And in "Glory" the black men were absolutely portrayed has heroes, just as much as the white men were portrayed as cannon fodder.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby houdini's ghost » January 18th, 2012, 12:29 am

Brad,
That's not true at all about Glory. Didn't Morgan Freeman play the Sgt. who brought the flag back to the Union Lines. "The old flag never touched the ground, boys."
The main character was Robert Gould Shaw--that's true, but, nobody could take that picture away from the black actors. "Cannon fodder?" Shaw was one of the first to go. They were infantry. The 54th Massachusetts Volunteers. If Lucas compared the men who made that assault on Battery Wagner to The Tuskegee Airmen as if the airmen were better--I didn't see the interview.
It wasn't Matthew Broderick's picture more than Denzel Washington's. What are we doing? Counting lines?

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:35 am

I found a link to the interview (you'll have to put up with ads, etc.):

http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/di ... d-with.php

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:43 am

Frankly, I think this is Lucas being Lucas (to borrow a phrase). He should never have compared the men in the story of Red Tails to the men in the story of Glory even if he is just talking about films (but HES the one who brought up the men who made America what it is todaya direct reference to history). Furthermore, I honestly believe hes setting the table for credit and blame: if the film is a big hit, he alone gets the credit. If it fails, its Hollywoods fault for not backing the movie.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Brad Henderson » January 18th, 2012, 12:46 am

Pat,

Never saw Glory. so I was taking him at his statement that in Glory they were portrayed as cannon fodder.

But, Dustin, even with the quote in full, I still believe he is referring to movies. Or else, why not reference the actual historical event, not the movie's title. He leads with I want to make a MOVIE that is inspirational - he then explains why he doesn't feel Glory qualifies. The whole interview was about Hollywood and how it worked. I felt this was an extension of that line of discussion.

As I said, never saw Glory - but when I heard the interview I did not take him to be ranking heroes - only portrayals of black people in movies. He felt that Glory was still a film that was a "white" film (as opposed to the concept of "all-black" film alluded to earlier).

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:57 am

Well first, go rent Glory; you wont be sorry (or dry-eyed).

Again, because he references history, real heroes, etc., I believe its not just about movies. And watch the interview and read his other comments about the movie: Hes the one saying its corny and the like! Are real heroes corny? How can one actually inspire kids with a self-described corny and over-the-top movie like hes describing? I think Lucas has lost his marbles.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete McCabe » January 18th, 2012, 1:02 am

Dustin Stinett wrote:He said it, not me.


He didn't say it. That's kind of the whole point. You said that he said it. But he didn't.

Now you're saying he implied it. Keep walking. When you get to "I inferred it" you can pitch your tent there.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 1:08 am

Pete, I quoted him. Twice. He absolutely says through his words that the men in "Glory" were cannon fodder led by white men while the men in "Red Tails" are "real heroes." He sees one set as heroes and the other not. Why make the comparison at all if he sees both as heroes? I'm leaving my tent right where it is.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 18th, 2012, 10:12 am

Red Tails opens Friday so we won't have long to wait for opinions from those who actually seen the movie to come in. They've kept a very tight embargo on this: there's not a single review anywhere yet. But the number of people who want to see it (87% as noted on Rotten Tomatoes) bodes well for its opening weekend.
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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Pete McCabe » January 18th, 2012, 11:03 am

Dustin Stinett wrote:Pete, I quoted him. Twice.


And in both quotes, he does not say what you accused him of saying. And yet you continue to say things like "he said it" and "his words," neither of which is true.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:52 pm

Pete,

When you were in school and a teacher asked you what Poe was saying with "The Tell Tale Heart" did you quote the entire piece?

"Say" and "said" also means the conveyance of a message and that's what I'm talking about. Frankly, I cannot believe you dont know that.

Have you ever asked someone what they want to "say" with their magic? Stop splitting hairs. After all, aren't you the guy who likes to "distill things to their most essential" (Scripting Magic, 2007)? That's what I did. You know that's what I did. What I did was proper analysis of his words. I quoted Lucas in context and also provided a link to the interview. I'm hiding nothing. Please tell me how his words do not say (mean, express, articulate, verbalize, disclose, impart, disclose) what I believe they say!

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Dustin Stinett » January 18th, 2012, 12:55 pm

I have little doubt that the movie will open big.

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Re: Tuskegee Airmen

Postby Doomo » January 19th, 2012, 12:00 pm

I am dubious. The CGI planes look awful. The music in the previews (cant say about the actual film) is WAY too modern. And lucas really is not too high on my list of favorites in the last few years...
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