Magic Castle difficulties

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Brad Henderson
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 10th, 2011, 6:40 pm

If this a joke?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 10th, 2011, 7:44 pm

I have sent a note to a source to find out if it's true.

However, I can see that it might be valid if, in the past, it has been determined that the flow of lines has been disrupted because some guy standing in line is in the middle of doing a trick and causes the line not to move smoothly. The exposure business doesn't make sense, but prevent lines from moving smoothly MIGHT.

There is certainly plenty of opportunity to stand around and do magic when you're not in a line.
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby houdini's ghost » June 10th, 2011, 7:58 pm

I saw an amateur idiot massacre Triumph while waiting to go into the Close-Up room.
The performer in the Close-Up Gallery also did a version of Triumph.
I thought this kind of stepping on a performer's toes ought to be illegal.
I also saw one of our managers perform the Professor's Nightmare to an audience that had just seen said rope trick performed in the Palace and would see it again in a few minutes performed by the performer the manager was about to introduce.
On the other hand, sometimes the waits are long.
Back in the day Disney gave us mountaineers to watch while we sizzled in the Fantasyland sun and waited for the Matterhorn bobsled ride.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 10th, 2011, 8:03 pm

Patrick, a few years ago, for the 50th Anniversary of Disneyland, they started having Mickey and Donald climb the Matterhorn.
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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 10th, 2011, 8:56 pm

This rulewhether official or not (I do not recall)has been around for a long time. It was never positioned as being an exposure issue, but one with regard to Patricks comment that one could be stepping on the toes of the performer everyone is waiting to see. And it is the difference between acting like a professionaleven if one is an amateurand not.

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Brad Henderson
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 10th, 2011, 10:11 pm

The exposure thing seemed weird to me. The flow issue makes sense. Repeating of material also makes sense but thats going to happen whEther the performance is in line or not.

Though I would prefer, if I were king, that they put a moratorium on performances in the Vernon sofa outside the closeup room. Too much noise. But Maybe that's just me.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Passionboy » June 10th, 2011, 11:57 pm

Just check The Minutes of The Board of Trustees, dated May 19, 2011. Exposure is the main issue! Managers are to deal severely with magicians who perform while waiting in line for a show! Undoubtedly, the other issues brought up on this Forum would also be a problem.

Also, no magic in The Lobby and, of course, Irma's Room!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brian Morton » June 11th, 2011, 1:00 am

Frankly, I saw a lot more blatant theft of material from performers working the rooms than people holding up the lines doing tricks.

The most glaring example I saw: David Malek, working the close-up room all week. The Monday after the changeover to a new act? There's a member down in the Hat & Hare pub working for guests, doing Malek's lines straight out of his act. The guy didn't even wait a DAY.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby KirkG » June 11th, 2011, 3:14 am

I think an over board reaction to a recurring problem. Prohibiting the performance of magic is stupid. Providing a vehicle to address piss poor magic is a good thing.

All impromptu performers should insure that they do not duplicate any of the tricks in the showrooms.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 11th, 2011, 3:38 am

I can't see how the prohibition on magic in lines could conceivably have any effect as to the issue of 'exposure' or trick duplication when magicians are encourage (expected) to do magic in other places throughout the club. And it seems to me, that members performing throughout the club is part of the essence of what the castle is. Asking for members not to perform in line as an issue of crowd control seems reasonable. But for any other reason - isn't that contradictory to what people - magicians and non magicians - think of what the castle is meant to be?

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Matthew Field » June 11th, 2011, 4:04 am

One of my fond memories took place outside Monday Night Magic in New York City, at their old home, the Sullivan St. Playhouse in Greenwich Village aboiut 15 years ago. On the bill that night was Jeff McBride. There was a line outside queued up to get in, and Jeff worked that crowd, showing each person a little close-up effect with a small piece of apparatus (I think it was something to do with the assasination of JFK). The crowd was thrilled. Jeff was positively glowing.

I agree that choosing things that no paid performer is going to do is important, but waiting in line is very unmagical for an audience. Jeff certainly brightened the experience for that crowd.

Exposure? Puh-leeze.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby erdnasephile » June 11th, 2011, 11:02 am

I wonder if "exposure" in the Trustee's minutes is being used here as a euphemism for lousy magic?

That is, perhaps the issue is not only just avoiding duplicating effects from the showroom, but also trying to limit the performance of substandard magic that inadvertently exposes principles and sleights that might be used in close proximity by the professional performers.

As Dustin implied, there is also the issue of professional courtesy.

David Schwartz suggests in Jamy Swiss' essay on magic etiquette (Antinomy 15): "Don't perform in another person's performance area--either stage or close-up."

The line just outside the showroom is awfully near to the area reserved for professional performances, and is filled with people eagerly anticipating the upcoming performance. To sap some of that enthusiasm with a crummy performance of Color Monte would seem to be somewhat discourteous and potentially counterproductive.

For the pros, it's like having a unwanted, possibly energy-killing, opening act.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Terrence » June 11th, 2011, 11:40 am

Poor performance of a magic effect has no place in the Castle.

I agree with Jamy Swiss - it reminds me of part of the SAM pledge against interfering in other magicians performance.

The Jeff McBride thing I think is an exceptional example -- that's more of an extension of the magical experience for everyone, rather than competition.

We should not be doing any magic in line for a performance at the Castle -- sub-standard or otherwise. If I do ACAAN in line with a guest, and hit it dead on, well -- a performer isn't expecting to have to follow that, and shouldn't have to.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 11th, 2011, 1:41 pm

How is someone performing magic in line at the castle, and it's potentially deleterious effects, any different really from someone performing in any other part of the castle - which is, as I understand it, encouraged?

I've seen some Terrible magic presented in the cellar. Does that not equally effect a guests experience of other shows and their overall perception of magic in general and the castle in particular? In fact, would those performances actually be more damaging, as they often have the aura of legitimacy attached to them?

Seems to me that one would have to ban all non paid/official castle performances if one we're truly concerned about the issues raised here.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby wildmagic » June 11th, 2011, 3:26 pm

What really is irritating is a magician performing IN the showrooms. I've seen many times a magician performing a trick to the person or people next to them. It use to be mentioned, when we became members the rules forbidding this behavior. Not sure if this is now mentioned, but I can't say if they are new members or older as it occurs.

Now for performing in line, as I waited in the non ticket line for the palace someone in the ticket line asked if any of us were magicians and would shown them some magic. One of our members hopped over the rail and did 10 minutes, just enough before they went into the palace. It went over very well and everyone was happy. But I see others point of view if the member was not really up to it and performed poorly. We have enough bad press already. It's a tough call.

I've been with new members in line and we talk shop. Ask what magic I perform I have pulled out a deck of cards and give a demonstration to those around. The lay people are very happy to see magic especially when the close up room is very limited for seating and they may have to wait a few sessions to get in. Again it is a tough call to say not to perform in this instance.


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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 11th, 2011, 3:29 pm

I'm still waiting to hear back if the rule as reported here is accurate or not.

There's no way to prevent bad magic. I don't see exposure as an issue unless it's exposure because the magic is so poorly performed. But, as Brad rightly notes, this can happen anywhere in the building, not just in line.

Traffic flow would seem to be the potential issue.
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Passionboy » June 11th, 2011, 7:43 pm

The report by The Trustees that I've already mentioned above specifies "no magic is to be performed while waiting in line for a show"! They mentioned the danger of exposure due to badly performed magic! The Trustees give managers the power to take action against anyone who attempts such an act! I hope it doesn't turn into a shouting match or a physical encounter! A magician wouldn't stand a chance!

The Magic Castle is supposed to be a private club for magicians!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Lisa Cousins » June 11th, 2011, 8:52 pm

I did a laces-through-body effect as part of my show, and after one of the performances I was told that someone had been doing ropes-through-body stuff for people outside the room before the show.

I don't know who did this, but I assume that they wouldn't have done it if they'd known what I was going to be presenting.

I suppose that's the core problem with magic-in-line: if you're waiting in line, you probably haven't seen the show yet, and can't know what you might potentially spoil for the audience.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby John Signa » June 12th, 2011, 12:01 am

During the "Introductory" tour we got wu hen I joined the Castle, when we got to the Hat & Hare, we were given a short talk about where it was and where it wasn't appropriate to perform. Irma's Room, the theaters and the theatre lines were given as examples of where we shouldn't perform as those were the domains of the Castle's performers.

While in line, people are waiting to see THE performer. The anticipation should not be ruined with "oh yeah, he's good, but let me show you what I can do."

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Alan Bursky » June 12th, 2011, 5:54 am

I see posts were deleted about the "lawyer". I will start putting my "lawyer" posts on my FaceBook page. He wants to sue me for libel, I will do what he does..... not show up in court!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Passionboy » June 12th, 2011, 9:56 pm

Although The Magic Castle claims to be a private club for magicians. It is, in truth, a night club with the purpose of making money! Nevertheless, non-scheduled magician members shouldn't have to endure the threat of "Big Brother" scrutinizing them!

Magician members should be able to go to their Club to enjoy a few drinks, dinner, and some snacks. However, there's the rub! A few alcoholic drinks will make most magicians lose their coordination and become careless when they perform magic. Consequently, the risk of exposure becomes a problem. I've seen some of the finest magicians perform magic poorly after they had been drinking. I won't say who they are!

If you drink, don't drive or perform magic while you're under the influence!

The Magic Castle makes some of its income from selling alcoholic beverages. Paradoxically, that is one of the problems when some magician members attempt to perform!

Remember, watch out for Big Brother!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 12th, 2011, 10:04 pm

"Magician members should be able to go to their Club to enjoy a few drinks, dinner, and some snacks."

Are you saying this is what the magic castle is meant to be - a place for drinks and snacks?

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 12th, 2011, 10:22 pm

Drinks, snacks, watching and learning magic, and socializing. I think that much was inherently clear.
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Pete McCabe » June 13th, 2011, 2:29 pm

If it's not for those things then what have I been doing all these years?

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 13th, 2011, 4:23 pm

Seems to me that if the castle is merely a space to have a couple of drinks and a few snacks, all of this concern, energy and effort is wastefully misplaced.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 13th, 2011, 4:51 pm

Brad, you are willfully misinterpreting the original post's meaning.
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Brad Henderson
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Brad Henderson » June 13th, 2011, 6:23 pm

No. I'm not.

He wrote:

"Although The Magic Castle claims to be a private club for magicians. It is, in truth, a night club with the purpose of making money! Nevertheless, non-scheduled magician members shouldn't have to endure the threat of "Big Brother" scrutinizing them!

Magician members should be able to go to their Club to enjoy a few drinks, dinner, and some snacks. However, there's the rub! A few alcoholic drinks will make most magicians lose their coordination and become careless when they perform magic. Consequently, the risk of exposure becomes a problem. I've seen some of the finest magicians perform magic poorly after they had been drinking. I won't say who they are!"

He then goes on to blather nonsense equating doing card tricks while inebriates to drinking and driving. And while I agree we should never offer less than out best to paying customers, I have never seen a magician so drunk his coordination was so impaired he could not do a card trick. He may have been boorish and an ass, but the double lift was fine.

Regardless, if all we need the castle for is a place to have snacks and a bite to eat, which is exactly what he seems to be saying, and what one can reasonably take from the above quoted text, then I think all of this effort is well over blown.

Perhaps passionboy does not feel that way, but it's what he said. And I suspect to some it accurately reflects how they feel. I can only base my thoughts on his words. Perhaps he can clarify.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Passionboy » June 13th, 2011, 6:50 pm

If you read my words carefully, Brad, you would understand that I said that The Magic Castle is a private club for magicians to practice magic. However, they should be able to do so without being scrutinized by "Big Brother"! (In other words, the managers!)

Magician members should also be free to enjoy a few alcoholic drinks even though doing so may make them perform in an uncoordinated manner. This could possibly cause them to expose a trick that they are doing. I've seen some very excellent magicians do this!

I suppose the best policy is for magicians to refrain from drinking alcohol if they are going to perform. Exposure is the problem here!

However, paradoxically, The Magic Castle makes some of its income through the selling of alcoholic drinks.

In truth, The Magic Castle is not entirely a private club for magicians. This is due to the fact that Associate Members and guests are also present. In theory, a Magician Member should be free to practice his or her art without any problem. However, the situation isn't such that they can do so! This condition presents a dilemma!

Remember, when you get to the fork in the road, take it!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 13th, 2011, 6:59 pm

Anyone who thinks that the Magic Castle can exist with only magicians as its clientele is deluded.

Anyone who thinks that the Magic Castle can exist without the AMA and its membersin other words as just a magic themed nightclub marketed as open to the general publicis deluded.

What has allowed the Magic Castle to exist all these decades, while other places that have tried to copy it have failed, is the coexistence of these two very important groups.

Dustin

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Steve Bryant » June 13th, 2011, 7:06 pm

I don't know -- I always thought it would have been smart for Milt to have kept total financial control, with the members just supplying the magic direction and allure. You used to be able to be a "member" of the Playboy Club, with various benefits, but you had no direct stake in the dollars and cents of the place (other than to contribute).

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby houdini's ghost » June 13th, 2011, 7:50 pm

The president of the Academy gave one of the greatest performances I've ever seen, last night, in his opening number on the Tony Awards.
Sang, danced and made two quick changes.
Sold it like the old-timers sold it. Like he was born to it.

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 13th, 2011, 7:53 pm

Yeah, and the Playboy Club--as it existed back then--is long gone. There were none at all for more than a decade. Now the few that exist are just nightclubs. And, by the way, how much did it cost to be a member (have a "key") back then?

Apples and oranges.

And Milt cannot have that kind of "financial control" of a non-profit organization (required for the liquor license, and if anyone wants to get back into THAT discussion--which you will lose--consider this: IF a regular liquor license could have been acquired at the Magic Castle, it would have happened a very long time ago; so get over it).

He also doesn't own the property on which the Castle sits, or the building in which the AMA and the restaurant are housed. In fact, the only thing Milt actually "owns" (besides some of the fixtures inside) is the name "Magic Castle."

Dustin

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Paul Green » June 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Anyone who thinks that the Magic Castle can exist with only magicians as its clientele is deluded.

Anyone who thinks that the Magic Castle can exist without the AMA and its membersin other words as just a magic themed nightclub marketed as open to the general publicis deluded.

What has allowed the Magic Castle to exist all these decades, while other places that have tried to copy it have failed, is the coexistence of these two very important groups.

Dustin


Simply stated. I totally agree!!!

Respectfully,

Paul Green

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Steve Bryant » June 13th, 2011, 8:39 pm

And, by the way, how much did it cost to be a member (have a "key") back then?


Back when I was a member of both, it was $25 for the Playboy key (I can't recall if that was a one-time purchase or an annual), and the resident magician membership at the Castle was $20 a year. (Same time frame: we used to have prime rib dinner at the Castle, with festalboard, for $5, then go to the Playboy Club late for breakfast, at $1.50 for breakfast and $1.50 for drinks.)
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Reason: food prices

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 13th, 2011, 8:51 pm

Doesn't matter; still apples and oranges. The PBC was privately owned by Hef, hardly a non-profit venture, and a regular nightclub with (at the time) top tier entertainers of different genres.

Oh, and by the way, I thought I was old!!! ;)

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 13th, 2011, 9:46 pm

Who knew that bunnies were so cheap?
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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Passionboy » June 13th, 2011, 10:01 pm

Here's a remark I saw on the other Forum: Would Rep. Weiner be allowed in The Magic Castle? He is guilty of exposure!

But seriously, of course The Magic Castle couldn't exist as only a private club for magicians. It would have vanished long ago had it been only that!

The Playboy Club was definitely a night club with Playboy Bunnies as a featured attraction.

How would it be if The Castle had Magic Castle Bunnies?

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 13th, 2011, 10:18 pm

Passionboy wrote:How would it be if The Castle had Magic Castle Bunnies?

Wasn't that long ago that someone ran for the BoD with something along those lines in his stump speech/statement.

(Oh, and Richard, bunnies are now federally regulated--really.)

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Terrence » June 14th, 2011, 12:19 am

Dustin -- that was "Hot Chicks and Packet Tricks".

Actually that reference ties up Playboy Bunnies and Bad Magic pretty well!

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Re: Magic Castle difficulties

Postby Liderc » June 14th, 2011, 4:09 am

I've seen quite a bit of performances in the 'Paid Showrooms' where they flash horridly, is that not the same 'Exposure'?

i've heard guest in line discussing the show they just sawr, and catching the 'Invisible Thread' utilized is that not the same thing?

i've also seen performers duplicate routines from showroom to showroom is that not the same thing?

as 'Magician Members' we auditioned and passed, we should be allowed to do magic if we fancy, so do we pay our dues to be policed?

wouldn't one believe that whilst waiting inline it not only aids the atmosphere but likewise creates repeated visits if they experience as much magic as possible?

the lines get horrendous at times, some only get one or two shows, and that is the 'Magical Experience' we want to give our guest and expect them to come back after charging 25 for the door in addition to the required dinner?
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