www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

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John Born
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 16th, 2010, 1:26 pm

Hi Norman

Hope all is well!

I am sure that I have made it clear from my previous releases for the magic community that if I make the effort to create a product, it is because I have something to bring to the table. In the past, whenever I bought a book regarding cheating at poker, I would find it worthwhile if I got just one thought from that publication. In this case I expect you will find more than that. I am not making strong claims, but simply representing the product for what it has been designed as - a first class publication for the modern poker player regarding cheating at Texas Holdem.

As far as some sort of buy-back program, I am selling my thoughts and time going into the book, just as every author does. So, if this topic sounds interesting but you are worried about $60 in change, then you have the option to wait for reviews (formal or just from other people). I may even release it to your local magic store one day, in which you could then pull it off the shelf and look at it before buying. Outside of this you have all the information you need for consideration, and I am in no rush to oversell anything.

Best,

John Born
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www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com


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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 16th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Actually, Norman, in your case after consideration I have decided to make a one-time exception, and heres how. I mean, I have not once heard your name before, and I dont know anything about you. However, after googling your name I see you have an interest in lecturing for magicians and have done a couple here and there.

So lets make a deal if you can send me all of your publications, lecture notes, and products to me, I will take a look. Anything that goes directly into my show I will gladly pay for. I will send the rest back. As you put this expectation on others, I can only assume your response is Yes, of course! After all, you stand behind you ideas, right? Send me a pm and I will send you my shipping address, as well as give you a full buyback option on my product. But, at this time, I am only blindly assuming that you offer some sort of product at your lectures, and that it will really add to what I already have to present

It is not in my taste to make an example of these types of posts, however it quickly makes sense why I do business in the same manner as most every information-driven business (including magic stores, etc.) you will encounter. The fact that a Norman Beck does or doesnt buy any product based on asking for special consideration does not qualify anything. Good reviews from Piacente, Jay, Lovell, Yedid, and Spiller who just recently got the book clearly hold more water, while Norman you merely speak in speculation and challenge.

John Born
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 16th, 2010, 3:42 pm

Hi Norman -

Not at all. I was simply making an example, as I am sure that every author in our community that puts out a book on magic does not need this type of third degree.

With that said, I will happily give you a 100% refund on the retail value of the book if

1) it is not a worthwhile/educational book for its market, or if I have mis-represented it in any way (read my large post previously given in this thread that talks about the material offered).

2) can show where my original contributions have seen print in other places

3) maintain the like new condition of your copy

Hope this helps!

John B
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www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com




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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby El Mystico » November 16th, 2010, 3:43 pm

Norman; why not ask how it compares to Cosmosis? that seems to be your benchmark, from your previous posts.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 16th, 2010, 4:00 pm

Norman, few if any magic publishers offer a money-back guarantee when you buy a book. Just like a trick, when you buy it, you buy the secret.

Therefore I suggest that you do as John suggests, which is wait for the reviews before deciding whether to purchase or not. That seems like the obvious path.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 16th, 2010, 4:03 pm

Norman, does that make me one of the peanuts?
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 16th, 2010, 4:31 pm

All I would suggest, Norman, is that you give a little more thought and consideration in the future before noting how you called and someone folds, especially when based on special conditions you feel important enough to create and push in a public forum.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Gary M Kosnitzky » November 16th, 2010, 5:12 pm

It's a given this book will be of interest to a certain number of poker players who have larceny in their hearts, no integrity and the overwhelming desire to take advantage of any opportunity to make money.
So why would any publisher leave themselves open by offering a money back guarantee on a book that can be easily photocopied, to this kind of audience?
That is just asking for trouble.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 16th, 2010, 5:46 pm

I am offering this to the few here that need the guarantee to give it a shot. I am happy to offer this simply because no one will be able to meet the conditions presented above as it is very much worthwhile to those interested in the topic.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Brad Henderson » November 16th, 2010, 7:00 pm

John Born, re Norman Beck: I have not once heard your name before, and I dont know anything about you.
John Born


John,

This may not have been the wisest post you have made.

Norman knows his stuff. I think he is held in high esteem by most people who do.

In the business, he's "the man." I believe it was Forte who called him The Michael Jordan of protection - or something like that.

While I have already bought my copy, I will say that ANYTHING Norman recommends goes to the top of my list.

FWIW

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Bob Farmer » November 16th, 2010, 7:55 pm

I can vouch for Norman Beck -- I've known him for years. Here's some b.g.:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n8949221/

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Tom Frame » November 16th, 2010, 7:59 pm

The fact that Mr. Born has never heard of Mr. Beck may cause some people to question Mr. Born's credentials and expertise.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Brian Morton » November 16th, 2010, 8:39 pm

I've heard of Norman Beck. I heard of him twelve years ago.

I've never heard of John Born.

brian

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Roger M. » November 16th, 2010, 8:58 pm

All I can say is "wow".

I wasn't going to point it out Mr. Born, but your exchange with Mr. Beck (who happens to be an expert on the subject matter) calls for further response.

Mr. Born, it seems (based on your own posts) that you're a magician and an amateur poker player who decided to write a book on "poker protection", and then somewhat boldly compare yourself to Steve Forte as a "fellow authority" on the subject.
Further you have no idea who Norman Beck is, a man widely regarded as expert in the field of protection.

You're not a cheater, and never have been, but you "knew" some cheaters once.

You have no experience in game protection or consulting, but it doesn't matter because it's not important.

And yet in the void that might be considered credible experience, you create "fantastic and original results".......and further "can sit down with literally anybody in the world" as their equal on this subject?

Is there anything you're leaving out?.... because nothing in your lengthy post indicates anything which would have garnered you the appropriate experience in order to be considered anything remotely close to being enough of an authority to author a book on the subject of protection.

Frankly, your posts exhibit a recurring and blatant naivet on the entire subject.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Steve Bryant » November 16th, 2010, 10:49 pm

Although I have heard of both, I have heard of John Born moreso. I know nothing of either's gaming experience, but can vouch that John is an excellent magician.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Glenn Bishop » November 16th, 2010, 11:10 pm

I have never heard of Normon Beck - But I have heard of John Born. I never met Roger M. But if I remember right Roger M had some nasty things to say about my Punch work. I also find it interesting that Roger M knows who Doc is - and Doc liked my Punch Deck Pro DVD and gave it a great review!

Just a few thoughts and opinion

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 1:11 am

Gentlemen

I have not disrespected Mr. Beck in any way. I simply recognized that his demand for a money-back guarantee was unreasonable and uncharacteristic in our trade. He could have been Phil Ivy, Forte, or anyone else, and it wouldnt have been his place to assume any type of buy-back agreement in the somewhat challenging tone that was presented. As far as not knowing him he hasnt published anything, we have never crossed paths, and in over 15 years of traveling and performing all over the world (including many times in his current and surrounding cities), nobody has ever mentioned his name to me. It is obviously impossible to know everyone, and I could make lists of people that youve likely never heard of, yet would highly respect for their knowledge once introduced. In the end Mr. Becks contributions to this thread brought something to the table, as I am offering a money-back guarantee to everyone here in the event that all three of the conditions posted above are met.

And Roger M arent you something special. I could write a book on literally anything, have it be the best or worst book on that subject, and nobody with a level head would ever present him/herself with such venom and animosity. Your contributions such as I have no fear that your book will contain anything of value to all but the simplest of home-game players have absolutely no foundation, as not only have you not seen the book, but as you yourself stated, you are completely unfamiliar with my background. What could you possibly contribute from that standpoint? And yet, you are still here as if people dont see directly through you and may actually take your contributions seriously. And then you bring up Mr. Forte? I think you need to read this thread again, as I have only presented my clear respect for him and his work, and all of my correspondences with Mr. Forte have been extremely pleasant. Clearly, your posts are a result of something very personal, and have nothing to do with the actual product at all. You are working extremely hard to try to discredit me, which is a task that you do not have the slightest chance in following through on. The merit of ones work will always create a long-term balance. If a book is not good, word quickly spreads, few sales will take place, and everything works itself out without the need for unnecessary personal vendettas. If it is good, it will naturally take on the opposite effect. So if you care to continue with these needlessly hostile exchanges, kindly identify yourself, and explain your personal hang-up. Be detailed, please. I know that I dont have to say this because anyone reading this thread will have found it self-evident, but all of your posts to this point have been nothing more than a fools exchange.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Ian Kendall » November 17th, 2010, 3:27 am

If you've ever folded a card and loaded it under a watch, that's one of the things Norman published. Over fifteen years ago, admittedly, which is why John may not have heard of him...

As an observation, the battles here seen to stem from the perceived qualifications of John to write such a book, and the avoidance of the 'good stuff isn't original, and the original stuff isn't good' syndrome that often comes with titles of this sort.

Ian

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Daniel Bain » November 17th, 2010, 3:37 am

I really enjoyed reading John Born's first book, "Meant To Be" and look forward to his next book.

I don't understand all the nastiness here. I think it's great that young magicians are looking to advance the art and to educate laymen regarding how to protect themselves from cheats of all kinds.

In any case, based on John's previous book, he has earned the benefit of the doubt.

John, keep up the good work!

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Glenn Bishop » November 17th, 2010, 7:54 am

Kind of interesting how some magicians that buy books seem to want - sort of the most bang for their buck. I thought that if there was one good idea in a book that I could use - then I considered the book a good investment.

I have a shelf full of books - that I dont read and did not find anything new in. But that is part of the search and the journey. But most books have value some have things I can use some dont.

And if I may add - if I remember right Doc also liked my book on my ace cutting and block transfer work (triumph).

Just a few more thoughts and opinion.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby SteveP » November 17th, 2010, 8:43 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:
I have never heard of Normon Beck - But I have heard of John Born. I never met Roger M. But if I remember right Roger M had some nasty things to say about my Punch work. I also find it interesting that Roger M knows who Doc is - and Doc liked my Punch Deck Pro DVD and gave it a great review!

I have heard of Norman Beck, John Born, have met Doc & Glenn Bishop and don't know who Roger M is. Do I win a prize?

Actually, I'm just posting to vouch for Glenn's punch work. I was at his house a few years ago and he blew me away with his punch deck.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby erdnasephile » November 17th, 2010, 8:50 am

FWIW, Mr. Beck writes one of the most insightful columns on performing magic for real people that I've ever had the pleasure of reading (in MUM).

He also writes very fair and straightforward product reviews for that same magazine (and has published two very well regarded (and well-reviewed) books on close-up magic, BTW).

Personally, I feel Mr. Born's book deserves to be judged solely on it's own merits, regardless of others' presumed/perceived level of expertise of the author. (After all, the exact background and qualifications of the author of one of the most important books in magic remain murky to this day :) ).

Hopefully, Mr. Born will submit his book to the trades (including MUM) for critical review. Until one has actually read the book, making a decision about it's merits is a little premature, IMHO.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Roger M. » November 17th, 2010, 10:43 am

"And Roger M arent you something special."
..............My Mother thought so.

I won't address you further Mr. Born.

Although you're very good at the vitriol, you've not once addressed questions in this thread related to your relevant experience in the trade.

It's redundant of me to keep asking when you obviously have no intention of answering.

I look forward to reading the first knowledgable review of your book.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 10:50 am

Excellent response Roger M.

Please keep hiding. You made my point perfectly.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 17th, 2010, 12:01 pm

Norman, that's the strangest thing I've ever read.

Why would anyone make a deal where there's a 50 percent chance they're going to have to pay $500 to get a bad review of their book?
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Roger M. » November 17th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Ron Conely is the undisputed "godfather" of casino and poker protection.

If Mr. Born has the credentials he claims he has, then he has no worry about losing any money.....Mr. Conely will give his book a glowing review.

The only chance Mr. Born has of losing money is if his book is either factually or conceptually flawed.....in which case those flaws will be picked up instantly by Mr. Conely.

Based on Mr. Born's posts to date, he has nothing to fear having Mr. Conely review his book as per Mr. Becks suggested terms.

Mr. Conely is one of the most trusted men in game protection, and any author would consider it an absolute honor to have him review their writing on the subject.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 12:22 pm

Gentlemen -

You are truly entertaining. Anyone that wants to read my project can find it at www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com, and I welcome all rational reviews and responses. Thank you for taking such an interest in my latest endeavor.

All the best,

John B. Born

PS Roger M - are you still partaking in your cowardly contributions? Nobody has forgotten that you are hiding. At least Mr. Beck, though leaving much to be desired in the sense of rational posts, is representing himself.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Kent Gunn » November 17th, 2010, 12:26 pm

Norman,

I like that you're upping the ante. Let's see if Mr. Born goes all in, or folds.

A simpler solution would be for Mr. Born to send a copy to MUM for you to review. Mr. Born has posted here, on a magic forum about his book. He obviously feels this is a good place to spread the word about his book. I hear MUM has a real gambling expert on staff. He'd probably love to do the review.

Jamy Ian Swiss writes for Genii. I've met the man and most would agree he does great book reviews. He would give Mr. Born's new tome a send-up. I don't presume that Mr. Swiss is a gambling expert. I do know his knowledge of sleight-of-hand with cards is truly world class.

Now this is presumption on my part. 120 bucks of retail material is an outlay. If the book's as good as advertised I know I'd buy it if Norman Beck or Jamy Ian Swiss recommended it.

Mr. Born's reputation in magic circles is pretty damned impressive. I've read Matrix God's Way. I was not impressed. But . . . "Meant to Be" is really a great book. I don't know why more people aren't aware of it and don't recommend it routinely. Having success in the magic arena has lead many down a garden path. Having the ability to stumble through the Marlo-Gardner poker deal will make a table full of rubes think you're the greatest card cheat on earth. That limited circle of magical knowledge has caused others to overstep their circle of ability. Being a great magician doesn't mean you don't suck at cheating at cards. Historically most magicians who've claimed gambling knowledge were mostly deceiving themselves.

Now . . . moving on to gambling expertise. After the publication of the two Forte tombs, Mr. Born, are you really going beyond that work? I'd wager a dollar or two most folks in this thread have "Poker Protection". If there's more good stuff about cheating at poker that applies to "friendly" games, I'm more than excited to read your book.

I'm going to wait until the reviews come out. I hear that Norman Beck guy knows his stuff. Maybe the five years as a cop and making his living like Tony Freakin' Valentine chasing down scammers for a living lo these many years should give some pause to doubt there own relative abilities and knowledge.

As a disclaimer, I have never tried to "move" in a real game. My granddaughter routinely kicks my ass in Old Maid. I've seen the real work though. I know Norman very well and think the cost of one book would sell many, many more copies for you Mr. Born. I know you can write well, I've learned from your previous works.

Let's see, how to place a side bet . . . if Norman agrees, I'll buy your book and send it to him. I don't need a refund. The only condition I'll put up is, if it sucks, Norman has to dispose of the thing properly. If he likes it, I'll pay him to mail it back to me.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Steve Bryant » November 17th, 2010, 12:40 pm

I've never heard of Ron Conely. Or Roger M. I have heard of Meir Yeded, Sal Piacente, Joshua Jay, and Simon Lovell, who so far have endorsed the book. I would not advise sending the book to MUM, as its "reviewer" has expressed extraordinary bias against it. Let the unbiased reviewers have a go at it, and we'll see how things turn out.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 12:41 pm

My stake is that I spent an incredible amount of time over an 8 year + span writing this project and then putting it to press in a first class presentation. As mentioned before, it is a project of passion. If it was about the money, I wouldn't be writing anything for the poker or magic community in the first place, as I would clearly be involved in more profitable ventures. And I sure wouldn't be babysitting adults on a magician's thread. The bottom line is that I did this because I like it, and was able to contribute. Clearly we have a few that have taken it personally that I didn't "ask permission" of them to do this, and I look forward to their continued biased remarks.

The end result is definitely something to be proud of, and I look forward to responses from those that purchased this without a chip on their shoulder.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 1:20 pm

Norman -

Regardless of your knowledge, you are not representing yourself well, and your tone has been clear. You literally have people shaking their head, saying "Thank goodness I have never had to deal with these ass-hats..."

Your best route is to back off and let things work themselves out as the book is sent out, as you have already recognized your bias. Nobody would try to create such challenges otherwise. Have been filling orders and sending out for reviews, so time will tell. Also - I would like feedback from Mr. Conely. However, not with your hand in it.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Kent Gunn » November 17th, 2010, 1:53 pm

John,

You've a one-sided view of the world. You may think Norman's an ass-hat. I shouldn't presume others do. You've taken offense from a kind and gentle man you do not know.

Note - he never called you an ass-hat.

This is a public forum. Telling someone what their best route is shows a level of presumption that belies your age.

Norman gave you a chance to step up and proudly proclaim, "Hell yes you can have a book to review, I know you'll love it and write a great review."

You saw rancor where there was none and created some to fill the void. You're selling something. Everyone is a potential client. The prospective customer isn't always right, it doesn't do any good to tell them that though.

KG

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 2:04 pm

Kent -

I am merely entertained by the term in how others have labeled his contributions to this thread. As I mentioned before, I don't know the guy outside of his present interaction, and have not said anything to discredit his knowledge. Am simply responding to his posts here. And yes, his approach is completely atypical, and he is clearly not out do do this project any favors. This is the second time he has referred to "calling and folding" regarding special demands he is creating on the spot. With that, I don't need any favors, and would prefer to continue representing my project for what it is. Please be patient, as the book has been sent to several reviewers outside of those already represented on my website.

John Born
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Gordon Bean » November 17th, 2010, 2:05 pm

As Ian Kendall alluded to, Norman put The Card Under the Spectators Watch in my Locked Room column in the May, 1995 Genii. Its really great, and every time Ive had the pleasure to meet up with him since hes shown me something equally fine.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 2:08 pm

Gordon -

I am not sure how any number of publications/magic contributions he has or hasn't made, good or bad, qualifies his current approaches to my project.
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Gordon Bean » November 17th, 2010, 2:16 pm

John-

The world of advantage play is not my world. I was merely trying to give some perspective about Norman, especially as it relates to Genii.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Ted M » November 17th, 2010, 3:07 pm

I am not sure how any number of publications/magic contributions he has or hasn't made, good or bad, qualifies his current approaches to my project.

The more publications he has, the more questionable your research skills appear in light of your claim never to have heard of him. Given that your book is promoted as "an unprecedented collection of research," this might suggest something about the quality of research readers may now expect to find in the book.

In addition to the cheating-detection article which Bob Farmer cited being the #3 Google hit for "Norman Beck", see also the 4-page profile on Norman in MAGIC magazine, April 2002, pp 66-69. It explains that his company routinely has millions of dollars riding on his skills at detecting cheating.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Jeff Eline » November 17th, 2010, 3:22 pm

Ted wrote: The more publications he has, the more questionable your research skills appear in light of your claim never to have heard of him. Given that your book is promoted as "an unprecedented collection of research," this might suggest something about the quality of research readers may now expect to find in the book.


I have no dog in this fight, but I think this is a good point. As someone familiar with cheating moves/routines but not knowledgeable enough to write a book, even I know who Norman Beck is, and I hold Mr. Beck in very high esteem.

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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby Tom Frame » November 17th, 2010, 3:40 pm

John is sending me his book for review. I make no claims of being an expert in the field of poker protection, but after studying card magic for 36 years, I have learned a thing or two about card table artifice.

Ive never cheated under fire because Ive never felt the need to do so. Ive merely played poker profitably for 7 years, in cash games and tournaments, both live and online.

Ill evaluate the book relative to Steve Fortes masterful work on the subject. I hope that we hear expert assessments of Johns book from Steve Forte, Ron Conley and Norman Beck. Until then, I encourage you to take my review with an appropriate grain of salt.
"There is more to consciousness than meets the mind's eye." - Frame

John Born
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Re: www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com

Postby John Born » November 17th, 2010, 4:12 pm

What is your point? I am going through my library and have yet to find a poker or protection resource that even mentions Norman Beck. If they did, I would have been more keen on contacting him. Even if every poker resource was first to thank him, I obviously did not need his input to create the publication that I offer. It is hilarious that a guy makes a post on a forum and then a few people have to rush to defend his credentials, when what I have to offer is already in print for anyone to review!

If he has something to offer, he has all the freedom in the world to write a book on his behalf, just as I did.

Also, if his intentions were good, he would have immediately taken me up on the buyback guarantee that he wanted. When I agreed, not only did he not go for it, he started creating other special demands and challenges. C'mon now. We are all reading the same thread.

Claims of being a customer does not mean that I am willing to put up with nonsense. Mr. Beck I have already given you more than enough of my time, and by all means you are welcome to this product, or you are welcome to pass, just as every potential customer is. I do not have the time nor patience for any more of your type of favors.
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www.CheatingAtTexasHoldem.com





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