Magicians in Trouble

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7836
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 13th, 2010, 1:29 pm

Anthoyn Vinson wrote:...picked up a copy of Just Busted, a weekly newspaper that prints the mugshots, names and charge of everyone arrested in surrounding counties the previous week. Everything from aggravated assault and rape to driving without a license and public intoxication. Page after page of smiling, snarling, scowling, sad faces... While a disclaimer advocating "innocence till proven" is listed on several pages, in the court of public opinion the verdict is in the moment someone recognizes a face. Or a name...


There's a newspaper called "Just Busted"? !!??? Almost suggests a theme for an adult torn and restored paper routine. On a more productive tangent- Has anyone done a torn and restored where you take two papers, say a Mad and a Newsweek and after tearing them have them merge into something thematically in-between, like "National Inquirer"?

* hopefully we don't need to address the obvious about how someone would know who they think they are as nobody can read thoughts - but since magical thinking is part of the problem... ;)

Tom Frame
Posts: 1013
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Del Ray
Location: San Francisco

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Tom Frame » August 13th, 2010, 1:43 pm

Dodd,

Please continue to post reports of convicted sexual predators.

Ive treated numerous child victims of sexual abuse. It breaks my heart to hear their stories and witness their suffering. Even when therapy is deemed successful by the therapist, the child and their family, the victim is not cured. It merely means that the child has regained some ability to trust others; is willing to take the risk involved in forming new relationships; does not blame themself for the abuse; learns how to keep themself safe in the future; has regained some positive sense of self; and experiences a decrease in emotional distress. But they will be haunted by the traumatic memories for the rest of their lives. Unfortunately, therapy cant erase memories.

Pedophiles are notoriously resistant to treatment. When they are released from prison, they will offend again if given the opportunity. Even when they are closely monitored, some of them manage to re-offend. We must never consider them cured. Their pedophilic thoughts, desires and impulses persist. We can only do our best to prevent them from having the opportunity to act upon those impulses.

Jonathan,

Im shocked by your post. By referring to pedophilia as awkward and private matters, you minimize the traumatic effect upon the child as well as the depravity and potential future threat posed by the perpetrator.

Privacy is the necessary and sufficient condition that permits predators to offend in the first place! We must not inadvertently collude with these predators by granting them privacy. When you sexually abuse a child, you lose your right to privacy.

Discussing these incidents on a magic forum isnt about helping the magic community or advancing our craft! We are discussing it on this forum because we erroneously define these perpetrators as being one of us. I hope that I speak for every member on this forum when I strongly assert that they are not one of us.

We are discussing this issue on this forum because we are human beings who just happen to share an interest in magic. But we are human beings first. The human community needs to be informed of these perpetrators deeds so that we can exercise due diligence in protecting our children after the monsters get released from prison and move into our neighborhoods.

I hope that you agree that attempting to ensure the safety of a single child is of much greater importance than anything else we discuss in our tiny, insignificant world of magic.
"There is more to consciousness than meets the mind's eye." - Frame

KirkG
Posts: 163
Joined: August 26th, 2008, 8:10 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby KirkG » August 13th, 2010, 1:45 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Kirk, those arguments are (i hope) specious and beg other questions I hope we don't have to address.

I simply detest the "think of the children" approach to fear-mongering. "Who will rid us of this meanacing pedophile" indeed.


Nope Jon, Not specious. It isn't fear mongering to teach your children to look both ways before crossing the street or taking candy from strangers. Now we have to also tell them not to help that nice lady at the park find her dog.

As a parent I believe an informed child is a safer child. I can't always be there to protect them, so I give them the knowledge and tools to do it themselves.

The magic community is small so any of those I mentioned, will make a big dent. Lots of youth attend magic conventions and stay out late at night in potentially dangerous conditions. Most come through it alright and without issue. Some do not.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 4787
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Bill Mullins » August 13th, 2010, 2:08 pm

This is not a new problem.

LA Times, 3/2/1950 p A24

"Magician, 63, Questioned in Morals Inquiry

William J. Van Berkel, 63, who advertised his profession as "magician de luxe," yesterday was questioned by Distric Attorney's investigators concerning alleged morals offenses involving young boys and girls."

He later pled guilty. His attorney was W. W. Larsen.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7836
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 13th, 2010, 2:09 pm

I just don't see the topic of "who's been accused of what disgusting act" as being helpful in a public forum focussed on product and commerce. "That" side of community affairs is usually managed quietly among adults rather than in places where children, confused people, the idly curious and ... even other predators, might be reading.

Kindly don't let magical thinking lead to making our little community more awkward than it already is.

The more thougtful and internet savvy here will have already recalled or discovered that my mother set up ISRNI (it's a resource network for therapists) and even a instant's reflection would lead to some idea about this topic and similar on the cycle of abuse being almost typical at the dinner table.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on August 13th, 2010, 2:16 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: put the "and how would he know" stuff at the bottom.

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 89
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 6:53 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Doc » August 13th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Raleigh wrote:The real mystery here ..... how people are willing to give up their entire life and destroy many others all because they can't control their sexual needs ! Amazing , I suppose maybe it's a sickness they can't control ?????



It's no sickness, Irvin.
It is a preference.

Bill Mullins
Posts: 4787
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Bill Mullins » August 13th, 2010, 2:14 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote: I just don't see the topic of "who's been accused of what disgusting act" as being helpful in a public forum focussed on product and commerce.


Who said the Genii Forum was "focussed on product and commerce"? Goodness knows very few of your posts have anything to do with either.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 13th, 2010, 2:19 pm

Raleigh, Pedohpilia is a mental illness. It's not a matter of controlling sexual needs. I'm not condoning or excusing it, obviously--these are horrible crimes. But they're not voluntary.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 13th, 2010, 2:42 pm

Oh, and Bob Markwood went to jail in Texas for drugging under age boys and molesting them. Anne White divorced him years ago.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Raleigh
Posts: 406
Joined: January 23rd, 2010, 11:47 am
Location: Las Vegas , Nv.
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Raleigh » August 13th, 2010, 2:44 pm

I agree Richard ....Thank you .

User avatar
Andrew Pinard
Posts: 362
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:13 am
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Andrew Pinard » August 13th, 2010, 2:45 pm

What about the release of a convicted sex offender? Haven't they "paid their penance" and be able to rejoin "the herd"? What about the notion that because they share our interests that we should encourage them to re-associate after the "debt" has been paid...

Ray Banks
Posts: 98
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Ray Banks » August 13th, 2010, 3:17 pm

Andrew Pinard wrote:What about the release of a convicted sex offender? Haven't they "paid their penance" and be able to rejoin "the herd"? What about the notion that because they share our interests that we should encourage them to re-associate after the "debt" has been paid...


They may have "paid the penance" but they may still suffer from the illness that caused them to do the acts for which they were convicted. That's why most states require them to register their whereabouts in a state wide database of sex offenders. Here in Texas they could never get a job where they were around children.
Pick a card....Any card....NO not THAT card..THIS one!

Ray Banks

Tom Frame
Posts: 1013
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Del Ray
Location: San Francisco

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Tom Frame » August 13th, 2010, 3:20 pm

Incarceration is merely a "pause button" that temporarily prevents predators from having access to children. Even if they do receive whatever passes for psychotherapy in prison, they are extremely resistant to it.

Sure, they will "talk the talk" in an effort to convince others that they no longer pose a threat. They want to get out. They know how to play the game. But their desires and impulses persist.

Thankfully, even if they never re-offend, their DSM-IV diagnosis will remain with them for the rest of their lives. 302.2 Pedophilia (in remission).
"There is more to consciousness than meets the mind's eye." - Frame

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 13th, 2010, 3:56 pm

Some details about the pedophilia and the rate of recidivism:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/41/10/37.3.full
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 13th, 2010, 3:58 pm

And this helps definitions:
http://www.atsa.com/ppPedophiles.html

Pedophiles and Child Molesters: The Differences

Although virtually all pedophiles are child molesters, not all child molesters are pedophiles. Pedophiles have a clear sexual attraction for children. The focus of a pedophile is a child or children generally under the age of 13. Pedophiles often report they are attracted to children in a particular age range (DSM-IV). Child molesters are sexual offenders who have committed either intra-familial sexual offense (incest) against a child victim or extra-familial sexual offenses against a child victim or both.

Pedophiles:


True pedophiles may abuse family members, but the majority of their offenses is extra-familial and is directed toward vulnerable children whom they court or groom for the purpose of victimization. Their relationships with children are based on exploitation of the children for sexual gratification.


Offenders, who seek out children to victimize by placing themselves in positions of trust, authority, and easy access to youngsters, can have hundreds of victims over the course of their lifetimes.


Pedophiles, especially those who molest boys, or both boys and girls, are the sex offenders who have the highest recidivism (relapse) rates after incarceration and/or treatment.


Pedophiles frequently are uncomfortable with adult intimacy and may spend their lives maneuvering to be near children. They may be extremely charming and skilled at manipulating adults, and they may use adult relationships to gain access to children.


The pedophile may spend years working up to a position of authority and trust within a church, school, or youth organization in order to have access to children. Of course, most such individuals in these types of authoritative positions have no sexual interest in children.



Child Molesters:


The non-pedophilic molester is someone whose primary sexual orientation includes adults, but who may molest children in a maladaptive attempt to meet emotional needs.


Research has found that many men who molest their own children or related female children have sexual interests that are indistinguishable from those of non-offending males.


Data suggest incestuous offenders, regardless of the gender of the victim, have lower numbers of victims and are less likely to be rearrested for new sex crimes after they have been convicted.


A child molester may turn to a child for sex out of a perceived inability to be close with an adult partner, out of poor self-esteem, or to escape feelings of powerlessness and loneliness. This type of offender usually has had appropriate (but often dysfunctional) relationships with peers and may be married.


Outcome studies have demonstrated consistently low rates of recidivism (relapse) for incestuous offenders.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 89
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 6:53 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Doc » August 13th, 2010, 4:27 pm

Outcome studies have demonstrated consistently low rates of recidivism (relapse) for incestuous offenders.


I have a friend that will sleep better knowing that.

User avatar
David Scollnik
Posts: 284
Joined: January 19th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby David Scollnik » August 13th, 2010, 5:09 pm

Andrew Pinard wrote:What about the release of a convicted sex offender? Haven't they "paid their penance" and be able to rejoin "the herd"? What about the notion that because they share our interests that we should encourage them to re-associate after the "debt" has been paid...

I saw an interesting documentary a few weeks back, Louis Theroux: A Place for Paedophiles.

Basically, Coalinga State Hospital in California houses 950 or so sexual offenders who have paid their penance according to the justice system, and served their time ... but the government doesn't want them on the streets and so they are confined to this facility indefinitely upon release from prison.

I think the documentary said that each individual in the hospital costs the state about $200,000 to feed and house.

Remember, this is not a prison. But its "inmates" are not allowed to leave. "As of April 2009 the facility had released only 13 inmates in its history."

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7836
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 13th, 2010, 5:48 pm

There was also a movie - about an English pop star sentenced to die for that crime.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media ... 17213.html
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 89
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 6:53 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Doc » August 13th, 2010, 5:51 pm

I think the documentary said that each individual in the hospital costs the state about $200,000 to feed and house.


The state should put them all up at the Ritz-Carlton in Marina del Reye with room service and save some money.

User avatar
Magic Newswire
Posts: 2502
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 12:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Magic Newswire » August 13th, 2010, 6:14 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:I just don't see the topic of "who's been accused of what disgusting act" as being helpful in a public forum focussed on product and commerce. "That" side of community affairs is usually managed quietly among adults rather than in places where children, confused people, the idly curious and ... even other predators, might be reading.


I thought that we had moved beyond the discussion of "accused" or "arrested and charged" to "Convicted."

User avatar
Ruben Padilla
Posts: 383
Joined: January 20th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Ruben Padilla » August 13th, 2010, 6:39 pm

Dodd Vickers has positioned his site as a "newswire", and with that assumed responsibility, I believe he should continue his quest to be careful, sensitive, and pragmatic with regards to the publishing of information that is possibly premature.

Richard's site has this forum, where there are no hardfast and defining rules other than those that he sees fit to implement at any time, and can even be contradictory if he chooses. We're in his house.

But whenever I hear people say that we must reserve judgement and bite our tongues on speculation because everybody "is innocent until proven guilty", I shudder.

The notion that we must presume innocence until guilt is proven is simply a PROCEDURAL MANDATE that applies ONLY inside of a courtroom (and rightly so). It's a way of "getting the job" done in this country without rampant abuse of the system. But it only applies (or should apply) INSIDE a court of law.

Outside the mandates of courtroom procedure, we can (and do) presume all we want, and why not? While acknowledging the McMartin case that Gregory mentioned above (a rare and massive exception) we are not held to a judicial standard while online, just as we aren't when standing around a water cooler, or sharing a pizza and beer, or waiting in line for the Magic Castle's Palace of Mystery show.

We chat, speculate, posit, joke, and generally, with rare exception, manage to conduct ourselves with a modicum of dignity and respect. Should we ever fail in this regard, there are plenty of detractors waiting in front of their computers to POUNCE on us for daring to step out of line. (Just read the posts on this thread alone if you doubt this!)

Personally, I like the gossip as much as the next guy. As much as the person perusing the National Enquirer while waiting in line at the grocery store, and as much as the person who watches Entertainment Tonight, The Insider, or nearly every episode of Larry King Live.

Dirt, while occasionally filthy, is sometimes attractive.

While I don't volunteer to be the person shouting out the latest rumors, I would like to know what they are. (Generally, by the time they get to my ears, there's some semblance of truth to them. Case in point: I had no idea about Jim Pace until today, clicking on this topic. I'm sorry for his plight and that of his victim, but I'm glad I'm in the loop. Had I heard about it the day after it happened, would it have made much difference? Probably not.)

So I will continue, as will many others, to click on the topics that appear salacious or "juicy", and speculate with the best of them (and with all the intelligence and decorum that my 43 years has afforded me), and yes, I'll probably, on many occasions, presume guilt before a conviction, and congratulate myself when I was right, and when wrong, say, "Oh, man! I thought for sure that guy was guilty! I was wrong! Oh well. What else illegal has anybody done lately?"

And continue to click...

Detractors commence!
Visit www.MagiciansOnly.com for exclusive book, trick, DVD, & convention reviews!

KirkG
Posts: 163
Joined: August 26th, 2008, 8:10 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby KirkG » August 13th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Magic Newswire wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:I just don't see the topic of "who's been accused of what disgusting act" as being helpful in a public forum focussed on product and commerce. "That" side of community affairs is usually managed quietly among adults rather than in places where children, confused people, the idly curious and ... even other predators, might be reading.


I thought that we had moved beyond the discussion of "accused" or "arrested and charged" to "Convicted."


Actually, we decided that some arrested and charged and going through trial information was still newsworthy for some subjects and names. It is above, but you may have to look for it.

Gregory Edmonds
Posts: 93
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:57 am
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Gregory Edmonds » August 13th, 2010, 9:49 pm

Ruben:

Your commentary is cogent, articulate and refreshingly honest for topics of this nature. I can and do admire you for these things. The McMartin Preschool debacle, however, was not, I think, as unique as you suggest.

I've personally encountered several other individuals, or have at least been exposed to their "stories," who, though not experiencing the level of notoriety the McMartin case did, were still irrevocably damaged by false accusations (not all were of a sexual nature, mind). My point is that "innocent until proven guilty" is not a legalistic phrase confined to the courtroom or judicial process. The phrase is a basic tenant that you and I, as Americans, enjoy because we had the good sense to either be born here, or to become naturalized citizens. With few exceptions (the United Kingdom, some Europeans states -- and a handful of others, to be sure), this world is a place where "guilty until proven innocent" is the rule. "Freedom," in such places, is only a word.

For generations men and women have served and died to insure that this, one among many of our truest and most important "inalienable" rights, would stand. The rumored action of another (magician, in our instance) and his or her right to peace and privacy hang in a very delicate balance. Since the events of September 2001, the Fourth Amendment of our country's Constitution has all but evaporated.

Those who really know me would probably regard the foregoing as unusually "liberal" in the context of my normal stance on issues of morality and politics. I simply don't want us to lose our focus as regards, once again, our basic "rights," such as they are.

I, too, have children (though they've reached adulthood at this date), and may have grandchildren some day. I worked with a man, oddly, at a local sheriff's department, who turned out to be a serial molester of children. He fit the classic profile, too, as he took a "part-time" job which provided him ready access to children. He was a school bus driver, and all of his victims (ias far as we were able to determine) were children he drove to and from a local school. Said school was, in fact, in the same district as those my own children attended, but his route took him to different neighborhoods, and different schools.

Would I have preferred to have been informed of this individual's sexual proclivities? Absolutely. As you were, I believe, completely forthright in your post, I'll try to be the same by telling you that (at the time) If I'd been aware of this man's devious and heinous actions, and more specifically, had they involved one of my children, I might now quite conceivably be enjoying meals and lodging at the expense of the state, and he might never have seen the inside of a courtroom. As it is, I thankfully wasn't involved at that level, and he's committed to 79 "life sentences," to be served consecutively. Eventually, I'm guessing he'll be buried at state expense.

I don't mind telling you, either, that (though I became a professional mentalist and hypnotist later), at the time of our acquaintance, Steven (the molester) paid for my services as a magician for a nearby Scout Troop, where he, not surprisingly, was the "assistant Scout Master." After his trial and conviction, I wondered that I hadn't recognized his behavior before, and did some serious soul searching with regard to what I might have prevented, had the former been the case.

While I was never sexually abused, when I was five years old, a teenage boy and his mates (his father and mine worked together) one summer evening found it entertaining to tie me to a chair, then leave me in a shed surrounded by woods. My parents and his, at the time, were playing cards inside his home. I don't think I exaggerate when I tell you that I remember the occasion quite vividly, especially when this kid and his buddies ran away, laughing, leaving me to my plight. I hadn't heard of Houdini at the time, as I'm being entirely honest, but I did manage to escape after a while, and report the incident. This, after a time spent wondering if anyone would ever come to look for me.

I share the latter stories to emphasize the fact that I really do have reason to despise those who victimize children. Yes, we are, as human beings, wont to stand around the proverbial water cooler and share "juicy" information (true or not) about others, especially those of our acquaintance. This behavior is part of our nature, and is, I honestly believe, programmed within our collective psyche as much as a defense mechanism as it is a function of entertainment.

Still, the internationally recognized stage and television illusionist I mentioned in my previous post now enjoys (in a very negative context) a reputation he did not deserve. I feel very comfortable in believing that there are very likely those reading this who (whether they would publicly admit it or not) believe that he "bought off" someone, or thoughts to that effect. Had the woman making allegations of sexual assault not later been found to have repeatedly engaged in being a professional "victim," an even higher number would believe the scenario just proffered.

Sexual offenders, no matter the age of their chosen victims, who would not (and very often DO not) offend again upon release from incarceration, are extremely rare. It is my belief that such individuals should absolutely never, without exception, be permitted to reenter society at large. Sadly, though, many who sexually abuse children do so, in no small part, because they were themselves abused as children. We do not hesitate, even with this knowledge, to call them monsters, because monsters they are.

When addressing the attitudes Dodd and Richard have taken as "journalists," even given the extremely small size of their audience, I commended (and still commend) them for taking the stance they did because of the reasons I've listed above, and because of their responsibility to their own families, advertisers or investors, and ultimately, the potentially injured party in a false allegation.

Once again, the likelihood that most people will regard a previously held belief as false, erasing it from their minds, is on par with the likelihood that the average sexual offender can be rehabilitated.

We can muse over the importance of individual rights versus the "right to know" forever, and never achieve a common ground, I suppose. In the final analysis (I hope you'll pardon the trite expression), I'll ask everyone reading these words to very seriously try to imagine that they, or possibly, one of their children were falsely accused of something as heinous as child molestation. I hope we can agree that they (or their child, in the instance given) would never be free of the taint such an accusation would bring. It is for this reason that we owe one another the right and expectation of a life lived in real freedom, void of hurtful stains, hate and (though I can't agree with most of what Jonathan wrote above), "fear mongering."

As for the DSM cited at length in previous posts, I'll remind you who know (and inform those who didn't) that the same manual, until quite recently, actually, regarded homosexuality as an official form of mental illness. Is it? We all have our own opinions, but clearly, many among us wouldn't consider the publication's record a perfect one.

In hopes we will always reside in an environment where we can enjoy a free exchange of differing opinions, I thank you for reading mine and appreciate you sharing your own.

Greg
Celebrate the Art of Magic

User avatar
Magic Newswire
Posts: 2502
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 12:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Magic Newswire » August 31st, 2010, 9:53 am

Another one convicted:

Birthday Party Magician Lands 6 Years in Prison
A 27 year-old Father of two, who met his victim at a child's bithday party, was sentenced to 6 years in state prison for child molestation. Shane Wright was porforming magic tricks at a 13 year-old girl's party when he met the 12 year-old victim and began to pursue a sexual relationship with her

http://www.kionrightnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13068690

Doomo
Posts: 354
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 3:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Doomo » August 31st, 2010, 10:31 am

Ahhh... Yet ANOTHER reason why you should not do kids shows... You never hear about mimes getting busted for this crap... Its always kid show workers... Yeick!
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.

www.rfaproductions.com

Carl Skenes
Posts: 16
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Carl Skenes » August 31st, 2010, 3:06 pm

Doomo (or whatever your name is),

You are not funny.

Carl Skenes

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 31st, 2010, 3:34 pm

Doomo is, unashamedly, Tony Miller.
He actually makes a point, which is that pedophiles are drawn to doing kids' shows because it gives them ready access to potential victims. In this day and age, I would never allow any adult that we didn't know extremely well to be alone with my child until she is much older and beyond this type of issue.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

jammen
Posts: 4
Joined: August 31st, 2010, 5:18 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby jammen » August 31st, 2010, 5:41 pm

Gregory Edmonds wrote:Ruben:

The McMartin Preschool debacle, however, was not, I think, as unique as you suggest.

Greg


No kidding! I normally just lurk, but this topic has prompted me to post.

I was raised in Minnesota which had a lurid sex scandal in Jordan, a small farming town. A great many lives were ruined by fantastic allegations which were ultimately proven to be oompletely fabricated. The town itself never recovered from the stigma of the allegations.

It turned out that the prosecuter was trying to ride the publicity into a run for Governor. Luckily defense attorneys were able to recover tapes of the prosecuter's misconduct.

I'm including a link to Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sa ... _Minnesota

User avatar
Magic Newswire
Posts: 2502
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 12:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Magic Newswire » August 31st, 2010, 7:47 pm

Hence why I post "Convictions" vs accusations.

David Alexander
Posts: 1550
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Aurora IL

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby David Alexander » September 1st, 2010, 6:07 pm

My article from The Humanist, March/April, 1990 will give you a good oversight.

It was one of the first published in the United States on this subject. It was used as a blueprint for a successful defense in a Santa Ana, California trial that wasn't well publicized but was devastating for the people accused.

http://www.smwane.dk/index2.php?option= ... df=1&id=13

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24199
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 1st, 2010, 7:23 pm

A lot of very scary stuff in your article, David.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

David Alexander
Posts: 1550
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Aurora IL

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby David Alexander » September 1st, 2010, 9:42 pm

Yes, irrationality can be frightening and fear can be manipulated to bad ends.

The McMartin fiasco, which I followed closely, was a sad confluence that began with the crazy accusations of a mentally-ill woman that mushroomed out of control with the critical mass of massively incompetent cops, a venal, ambitious, lying, and unethical District Attorney who wanted to be Attorney General of California, greedy developers who wanted the McMartin property, sloppy "therapists" who used unproven methods of interviewing children (and leaked their "findings" to the press), ambitious television reporters, religious nuts, and a host of other incompetents and crazies who all came together. At the time it was the longest and most costly trial in US history and resulted in no convictions.

Long after the dust had settled and numerous lives destroyed the LA Times media critic, the late David Shaw, did a multi-part investigation that showed how weak the evidence was, how the various institutions failed their duties across the board, and how numerous individials behaved unethically if not illegally. He won the Pulitzer for his work, a magnificent example of analytical/investigative journalism...only too little and too late to serve justice.

It took the election of a new District Attorney before the nonsense was stopped and even he took a year.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

User avatar
Magic Newswire
Posts: 2502
Joined: March 29th, 2008, 12:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Magic Newswire » September 1st, 2010, 9:46 pm

Jesse Friedman's conviction under review:
http://huff.to/atPEWv

performer
Posts: 2695
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby performer » February 1st, 2018, 5:59 pm

This is the first time I have ever looked at this thread. I thought it was about Sucker Tricks!

Jonathan Pendragon
Posts: 394
Joined: July 13th, 2010, 7:33 am

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » February 3rd, 2018, 2:35 am

I don't remember getting the same treatment, I was savaged in the magic press almost at once and often and way before I ever went to trial. I have always taken the high rode on this, but some day I will tell my side of the story and it will ring far truer than my ex's ludicrous Mandela interview.

Jonathan Pendragon
Posts: 394
Joined: July 13th, 2010, 7:33 am

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » February 3rd, 2018, 2:55 am

I want to clarify that I am talking about the thread's following posts where magicians who knew nothing about the situation felt free to comment on my character. When my felonies were dismissed, I was treated well by the community but that news garnered a fraction of the press that the original arrest got. I know that's how it normally is, but still hurt at the time.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 874
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 3rd, 2018, 4:45 am

performer wrote:This is the first time I have ever looked at this thread. I thought it was about Sucker Tricks!

If you're going to resurrect an eight year old thread, couldn't you find something better than this?

Jonathan Pendragon
Posts: 394
Joined: July 13th, 2010, 7:33 am

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Pendragon » February 3rd, 2018, 6:55 pm

Brad
"Are you talking to me" :D

performer
Posts: 2695
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby performer » February 4th, 2018, 10:50 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
performer wrote:This is the first time I have ever looked at this thread. I thought it was about Sucker Tricks!

If you're going to resurrect an eight year old thread, couldn't you find something better than this?


Jeffers old chap. If you are so disapproving of this thread you shouldn't have clicked on it in the first place. You really are an awful busybody you know. No doubt you are in charge of your local neighbourhood watch committee.

For your information (not that it is any of your business of course) I assumed that this topic was indeed an active topic. I am a very busy man despite not being part of a neighbourhood watch committee and I really haven't got time to be checking which topic is old and which is new. In any case if even the Lord Jesus can be resurrected then I can see no earthly reason why this topic can't be.

The truth of the matter is that I saw a rather sensible post on here (obviously not made by yourself of course) and since such things are rather rare events on the Genii Forum I decided to investigate who the astute poster was by seeing what other posts were made by the person in question. One of the posts in question was on this very thread. By the topic heading I assumed it was probably something to do with sucker tricks. When I found it wasn't I remarked upon the matter. That is all there was to it.

I suggest you now go back to your watch committee meeting. I expect they have lots of equally useless things to get you agitated about.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7836
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magicians in Trouble

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 4th, 2018, 11:45 pm

David Alexander's article can be read here:
http://www.theescapist.com/archive-givingthedevil.htm
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


Return to “Buzz”