Pat Metheny on Magic

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 7259
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 21st, 2010, 11:12 pm

Torture is riding in a car with my wife playing her "ABBA Gold" CD. And she watches that GD "documentary" on them whenever it plays on PBS (no other channel will broadcast it).

A cold chill just went down my spine.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 21st, 2010, 11:20 pm

Funny how some folks seem to forget they are speaking of professionals in their fields who are well compensated for producing the very works they claim are "bad" rather than "not to my taste".

Truffles, caviar, escargot, beer, bowling, soap operas... all acquired tastes.

There seems to be a huge market for bland soporific works and performances. Zamfir, Yanni, Barney... now if you're up for discussing the themes and methods used in the works you don't like - that might be useful.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 21st, 2010, 11:22 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Torture is riding in a car with my wife playing her "ABBA Gold" CD. And she watches that GD "documentary" on them whenever it plays on PBS (no other channel will broadcast it).

A cold chill just went down my spine.


Okay I'll share: Torture is watching folks praise and then trance out to that stuff. Not sure whether I'd find it more disturbing if they told me they like to pull the wings off flies. Something about lullabies for adults really scares me.

Okay one more - those group dances that started in the disco era... I get flashbacks to scenes from Metropolis. I liked like the way Janet Jackson reclaimed that stuff as a more assertive format (Rhythm Nation, What have you done for me Lately...) - though it still leaves me with that sense of toy soldiers wound up and marching off to no good purpose.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2332
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Pete McCabe » May 21st, 2010, 11:48 pm

One thing for sure is that Bill Evans underlying premise of similarity between magicians and musicians is spot on. Both have to choose alone a spectrum between satisfying their own sensibilities (i.e. critical success) and those of their audiences (commercial success). People on both ends believe they made the right choice. And in both, some of the most commercially successful performers are criticized for inferior technique by some of the most critically successful.

User avatar
AMCabral
Posts: 169
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 8:59 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby AMCabral » May 22nd, 2010, 12:00 am

My god. This thread is so much hipper than I would've given credit for.

-T

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 22nd, 2010, 12:04 am

The notion of "art for art's sake ..." is relatively new. Let's keep it separate from market concerns.

The question about what the market rewards however is valid. Folks from Arrowsmith's Steven Tyler to... well plenty of formally trained and talented artists have already addressed this.

So does your work offer a way for them to appreciate what magic could be if they let themselves enjoy it? What do you feel permits the market to more easily reward Kenny G than others you feel are better.

James Cotton
Posts: 108
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby James Cotton » May 22nd, 2010, 12:20 am

Pete McCabe wrote:I understand that Jazz musicians think Louis Armstrong is great and Kenny G is not. I'm not a professional musician but I am not an idiot.

I just don't know what that has to do with what Pat Metheny said. The idea that Kenny G is insulting Louis Armstrong is absurd. He's giving the greatest tribute he can. Just because you don't like his music doesn't in any way change his motivation. And what harm, exactly, does the existence of an Armstrong/G duet do to the legacy of Louis Armstrong?


I think the issue is explained with white hot clarity by Metheny. If you can't understand or accept what he's saying, there's no point trying to convince you of its truth.

James Cotton
Posts: 108
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby James Cotton » May 22nd, 2010, 12:27 am

Bill McFadden wrote:
Dustin Stinett wrote:Bill, why does race particularly matter?


Dustin, you caught me thinking in the jazz idiom there. In the hundred or so years the music has developed, there unfortunately remains an unspoken division along racial, talent, and popularity lines. They are indicative of one's credentials and standing. Amongst musicians, critics, and fanatics it goes with the turf.

An example of that thinking would insist that it's perfectly fine if Wynton Marsalis made special tribute to Louis Armstrong, but don't even think of Pops and Kenny G in the same sentence!

My intention did not include offending anyone, or escalating controversy and I'm very sorry if that was the result.


Your view is mistaken. There are plenty of white jazz guys now and in previous times who were as respected by their black peers. The story of Miles Davis being criticized (by black commentators) for hiring Bill Evans is instructive. He replied: "Find me a black guy who can play better and I'll hire him." Kind of Blue wouldn't be the greatest jazz album of all time if it wasn't for the stellar ensemble contributions of every single member - including Evans.

By the way, Marsalis playing a digital duet with Armstrong for cynical commercial (parasitical) objectives would have received similar criticism from Metheny. And Marsalis is 1000 times the musical talent that Gorlick is.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 22nd, 2010, 12:55 am

Pete, it is (as best I understand art history) simply not the case that one has to choose between presenting flawed but sincere works and pandering to the rhetorical cliches large audiences will find convenient. They are independent aspects of a presented work.

Shakespeare offered afternoons of entertainment for his audiences. Rembrandt painted portraits for his patrons. Leonardo...well he fussed too much for his patrons tastes. Michelangelo and Mozart and Beethoven did their commissioned works, some of which are still inspiring students today.

In our craft we have had folks like Del Rey, Tommy Wonder, JERobert-Houdin, JNHofzinser, Houdini... and today we have some remarkable talents out there working including Max Maven, Penn and Teller, Armando Lucerro... each exploring their own vision of magic while entertaining audiences. Magic does not have to be Kenny G in his suit, doves and overwrought cliches.

Bill McFadden
Posts: 621
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Villesville-on-the-Chesapeake

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Bill McFadden » May 22nd, 2010, 1:42 am

Duke Ellington: "There are really only two kinds of music. There's good music. And the other kind."

Mr. Cotton, you misunderstood what I was trying to communicate in brief. When it comes to "Jazz," I know what I'm talking about, believe me.

I loved your last paragraph because I had that "Why the heck didn't I put that thought in the post?" moment.

See, there's a difference between Wynton's (actual) covering of the Hot Fives band, "Potato Head Blues" Louis Armstrong - and any other popular musician covering the "Hello Dolly/Wonderful World" Satchmo. And that's because he was such an original, a seminal figure in the development of 20th Century music. Yet at the same time, he kept perfect balance with being one of the most popular American entertainers for the better part of 50 years.

James Cotton
Posts: 108
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby James Cotton » May 22nd, 2010, 4:24 am

Bill,

I thought your post was fine. I just think any jazz musician, black or white, who overdubbed his playing onto an Armstrong track and released it commercially would be viewed as an ass.

James

James Cotton
Posts: 108
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby James Cotton » May 22nd, 2010, 4:32 am

In hindsight, rereading your post, I concede your point. There are critics (especially "social historians" and cultural relativists) who might defend a black person's "right" to stomp all over Armstrong's memory the way Gorelick did. It's [censored], but there it is.

RobertAllen
Posts: 65
Joined: January 19th, 2009, 5:32 pm

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby RobertAllen » May 22nd, 2010, 6:07 pm

I like Abba. More than that, I like their Voulez Vous album. I don't care if it's crap or not, I just like it :) I like Bacon Western Cheeseburgers too.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 22nd, 2010, 6:50 pm

Lots of people like crap of one kind or another.

My particular weakness is bad horror and sci-fi movies from the 1950s. Nothing like a good evening with a bag of chips and Attack of the Crab Monsters. But at least I know it's crap, and knowing that in no way diminishes my pleasure in watching it. But Kenny G! Just can't deal with that.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 7259
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 22nd, 2010, 7:33 pm

Yep: Nothing like a good ol' Guilty Pleasure. I watch "Water World" when it comes on (Jeanne Tripplehorn...mmmmmmmm).

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 22nd, 2010, 7:43 pm

"Water World"? Oh the shame ...
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2332
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Pete McCabe » May 22nd, 2010, 8:41 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Pete, it is (as best I understand art history) simply not the case that one has to choose between presenting flawed but sincere works and pandering to the rhetorical cliches large audiences will find convenient. They are independent aspects of a presented work.

...

Magic does not have to be Kenny G in his suit, doves and overwrought cliches.


Just in case anybody was wondering, I never said or implied either of these things.

Bill McFadden
Posts: 621
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Villesville-on-the-Chesapeake

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Bill McFadden » May 22nd, 2010, 10:01 pm

James, I hope our paths cross some day, and we can do some serious talking. In the meantime, I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for the dialogue.

McF

PS I have an overwhelming urge to listen to some Ornette Coleman right now.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 22nd, 2010, 10:20 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:...magicians and musicians is spot on. Both have to choose alone [sic -jt] a spectrum between satisfying their own sensibilities (i.e. critical success) and those of their audiences (commercial success). ...


Okay maybe I misread you.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby erdnasephile » May 22nd, 2010, 10:27 pm

Perhaps a comment from jazz great Branford Marsalis might add an interesting perspective:

When all these jazz guys get in a tizzy over Kenny G, they need to leave Kenny alone, Marsalis said in an interview with Jazziz magazine. Hes not stealing jazz. The audience he has wouldnt be caught dead at a real jazz concert or club. Its not like some guy says, You know, I used to listen to Miles, Trane and Ornette. And then I heard Kenny G, and I never put on another Miles record. Its a completely different audience.

(from Joe Brown, Las Vegas Sun, July 10, 2009.)

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2332
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Pete McCabe » May 22nd, 2010, 11:10 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Okay maybe I misread you.


Indeed you did. I mentioned a spectrum, with one end being creating what you want and the other end being creating what the audience wants. In your version I offered only two isolated points (along the spectrum) as the only choices.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2332
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Pete McCabe » May 22nd, 2010, 11:17 pm

James Cotton wrote:
Pete McCabe wrote:If you can't understand or accept what he's saying, there's no point trying to convince you of its truth.


There's certainly no point trying to convince me that anyone's opinion, on any subject, is truth.

By the way I understand quite well what Metheny is saying; his meaning and motivations seem clear enough. But I don't know what it would mean for me to accept it. It's his opinion. I agree with some of it and disagree with other parts of it. What would it mean for me to accept it?

James Cotton
Posts: 108
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby James Cotton » May 23rd, 2010, 12:38 am

I guess it would mean you'd understand how most jazz musicians feel about Kenny G.

More than that you'll have to discern yourself.

John Carney
Posts: 235
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby John Carney » May 23rd, 2010, 8:36 pm

Hey Bill,

just started on Jimmy Webb's book on songwriting, "Tunesmith"....similar experience for me... in the opening chapters, you could substitute the words magic for song and its all there. For one, he talks about the fantasy of "born talent" and talks instead about working your ass off.

Just started it, but a great read so far.

jc

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2332
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Pete McCabe » May 24th, 2010, 11:14 am

There was a fascinating article in The New Yorker a few years back. They were trying to see if they could measure "natural" musical talent. So they went to a music school and charted how many hours each student practiced, and had multiple teachers assess their ability.

Anyway they were looking for students who had high ability scores but low hours practiced. These would, presumably, be the ones with natural musical ability.

They didn't find any.

The results were almost perfectly proportional; the more you practice, the better you are. Now, both hours practiced and musical ability are difficult to measure accurately, so take the results with a grain of salt. But it's interesting that the first attempt to scientifically measure natural ability found none whatsoever.

Bill Evans
Posts: 114
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Bill Evans » May 24th, 2010, 11:58 am

John Carney wrote:Hey Bill,

just started on Jimmy Webb's book on songwriting, "Tunesmith"....similar experience for me... in the opening chapters, you could substitute the words magic for song and its all there. For one, he talks about the fantasy of "born talent" and talks instead about working your ass off.

Just started it, but a great read so far.

jc


Hey John... I will definitely check that out. For those that don't know, John has been "working his ass off" on the guitar as well. No surprise really as John never quits learning no matter what the subject. That's the real secret of most everything. I really enjoyed our guitar session in KC last fall. I even got a new song out of it, courtesy of Mr. C.

I think this final quote is the most controversial one in the entire book of interviews. It's a very scary one to read and think about. Again, another example of the similarities between these two arts:

"THE FUTURE

Richard Niles: The challenges for the future and the dangers in the present? Discuss.

Pat Metheny: The challenges for someone starting now are exactly the same as they have always been- but with the additional burden of each decade of new information and innovation that creative artists are required to absorb, or ignore.
It's not easy. The thing we see a lot of now is younger players who are very capable, even exceptional musicians. But they get to a high point of fluency without having much of a story of their own to tell. When I hear many young saxophone players, I have the feeling that there are 500 channels on your cable TV, but there's nothing to watch.

[. . .]

I also have to say that, on a political level, being original has become less of a goal. Politically we live in an era of Fundamentalism versus Modernism. That's the general conflict in the political world, and in the jazz world the Fundamentalist movement is significant. And that movement makes a case to say that it's OK to sound like Coleman Hawkins, and if you do it great, that's enough. But that's a break from the jazz tradition. Historically, there are few examples where a revisionist view of the world has held sway. I do find the parallels between the political climate and the jazz world fascinating. They mirror each other in many ways."



Wow...not sure if I agree with that concept...or maybe I just don't want to agree. I have always thought that art was a refuge from politics. The above quote scares the hell out me and makes me wonder if we will all make wise decisions at the fork in the road of creativity.

Bill
Last edited by Bill Evans on May 24th, 2010, 12:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: typo

Jim Martin
Posts: 551
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: St. Louis

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jim Martin » May 24th, 2010, 12:18 pm

Bill Evans wrote:"THE FUTURE (Metheny)
Politically we live in an era of Fundamentalism versus Modernism. That's the general conflict in the political world, and in the jazz world the Fundamentalist movement is significant.

...

I do find the parallels between the political climate and the jazz world fascinating. They mirror each other in many ways."




From a great article by David Haidju on Wynton:

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/ ... /hajdu.htm

"Wynton has the car in reverse," the trombonist and composer Bob Brookmeyer has said, "and the pedal to the metal".

For any art (magic, music) to grow, there has to be knowledge of the past and creativity in the present.
Jim Martin
St. Louis MO

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 24th, 2010, 12:26 pm

Bill Evans wrote:... I have always thought that art was a refuge from politics.


The above quote puzzles me and makes me wonder if we will all make wise decisions at the fork in the road of creativity, Bill. Would you discuss how this is supported in art history?

Bill Evans
Posts: 114
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Bill Evans » May 24th, 2010, 12:46 pm

It's been a personal refuge to me, and that is what I meant...I didn't mean that history supports this view. I took an art history course in college, but that's the extent of my knowledge on that subject and I've forgotten most of that.

What I meant was, that in both music and magic, I have enjoyed sessions with those that share my tastes....guitar and card magic. And I have enjoyed those sessions free from political discourse and ideology. I have, of course, personal views on where this country [USA]is headed, but those don't carry over to the card table or the jam session, at least with me. It's just nice to leave those disturbing topics behind for a while and enjoy the moment the session brings. I don't like combining the two.

Bill

Bill Evans
Posts: 114
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Bill Evans » May 24th, 2010, 12:51 pm

Just to show you what can happen when you combine music with politics....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YRWhg4YaA

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Pat Metheny on Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 24th, 2010, 12:58 pm

It's okay Bill, not looking at the ephemera of timely bickering here either. What I am pondering though is the way a culture's changes in demographics and technical resources effect the nature of "good works" in a field. The best food on the block might have been at the local Ukrainian place twenty years ago and may been replaced by a fine Korean restaurant today. That kind of thing.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


Return to “Buzz”