Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

[Jonathan Townsend]

If you tease a person about obtaining something - especially someone predisposed to think themselves clever - you've pretty much guaranteed they'll get it - and be all the more likely to show off to others that they have it.

[SteveP]

In the mean time - What specifically do you feel motivates folks to "share" magic data? If you can figure out what folks want to share you can then produce something else that will be of little interest to them and greater interest to those you wish as customers.

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned I was successful in getting magic trading to stop at a popular forum (where they trade everything, not exclusively magic). In PMs with some of these crooks, I was told that we charge too much. Why does a gimmick that costs $1 to make cost $10 when it's for sale? You then try to explain the economics of the wholesale, retail world and you're then told that you're making too much money.

You're dealing with a mindset in which everything should be free and available now. "We like free" is what I was told several times.

This has nothing to do with creating cheaper products, such as downloadable DVD tracks so people don't have to buy the entire DVD. The next level to their argument would be that it's a download product and doesn't cost them anything.

What's motivating them to spare their peers both money and fuss? What's in it for them?

What's motivating them? Being the hero. Being the king. Being the guy who provides the resources to the anonymous members of a forum. Boasting rights.

You bring up "fuss". Man, this really pissed them off. In one example I had Doc Hilford's Monster Mentalism set removed from RapidShare. It took over 40 files for someone to rip that 4 DVD set and upload it. They spent a few hours on it, that's for sure. I had it removed in minutes. And the person who posted all of those files complained because all of his hard work was gone. Interesting that he was concerned about HIS hard work and not the hard work of everyone else it took to create the DVDs. I told these guys several times that it takes no effort on my part to have their hours of work deleted. When it starts to become too much work on their part, it's not worth it anymore.

I haven't read every post since my last one, but there seems to be some talk about various ways of protecting downloadable content. It's a moot point because even if you did have a solution, the DVD is still going to be released and they will just grab it from that.

Ellusionist has a complex DRM system in place for their downloadable products. I'm not a DRM fan as it ultimately penalizes the customer. It's money wasted because all of their titles are still being traded. Not because the DRM was cracked, but because the exact content is available on DVD. So it makes no sense to try to protect it.

The bottom line with these people is that they don't care. They don't care about you, your secrets, your losses. If you stop releasing material, they don't care. They don't care because this is just something that is passing their time for the moment. They have no respect for the creators, or the art itself.

[Scott M.]

What motivates them?

Sigh...

Magic is intellectual property, so what motivates them is the same thing that motivates other subsets of users who trade the products of their communities -- movies, music, instructional videos, etc. -- online.

Read: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/topsite.html

[Jonathan Townsend]

Scott, magic is not IP. There are laws/protocols for handling that. Magic is a commodity product in a niche market which requires a large influx of newbies to pay for low price items and to attend...

The base issue so far is that folks want to offer a product in a format and on a basis that simply does not encourage anyone to treat it as valuable.

[joshua barrett]

I don't often post at genii, but i wanted to chime in on some of the talk.

DRM, 'dongle' or 2 step authentication are dead.

what the Digital world including Media, software, movies, games is truly heading for is "cloud" computing.

you can look it up for more technical details.

Basically instead of buying a mp3/dvd/ebook etc you buy merely access to it. this is done already in a much more limited manner.

Lets take Windows for a good example. Currently you install windows on your computer and it runs locally from your hard drive. Microsoft "knows" you bought it based off a key code.

this has been unsuccessful for them.

what they want to do and About every software company known to man including google ( the not to be talked about google OS is based one this ) is run the operating system from remote servers. you pay either a one time fee and a monthly sub. the only hardware you need is a monitor terminal with net access. no computing is done locally.

if you think this is far off its not. A company as already lauched a service for playing EXTRMEMLY HIGH END PC games, at max detail on a standard HDMI tv with no computer at all. its all streamed it. The super fast computers doing the work are remote.

I hope i am not being to confusing. What i am getting at is this.

in the near future, there will prolly be nothing to share.
you can not share files you do not have possession of.
you can not share access to said content because location is EASY to verify. my bank web site even does this.

this is why things like the xbox now can stream movies without download from netflix and things like that, driving digital media toward sub based streaming to "dummy units"

[Brad Henderson]

The company you refer to is called onlive and it's pretty amazing. Basically, you have on demand access to whatever you want. (Right now they are doing games and I believe software, but eventually they may host TV, movies, etc.). Imagine being able to access any episode, from any tv series, at any time - right now.

[Scott M.]

Jonathan, I think we differ perhaps not on the substance of these arguments but on issues of nuance or emphasis. But with regards to copyright law, a magic book or a DVD is IP just like a regular movie or book is. Those DVDs or books are the commodity products you speak of. Does a magic project have another dimension -- the fact that a significant portion of its value can be transmitted orally, or duplicated by a performer who has witnessed or read the original work? Duplicated or transmitted by means other than the commodity product? Sure. Other industries -- restaurant chefs who create recipes, for example -- have similar challenges. But since this thread seemed to be dealing with the downloading of copyrighted magic instructional audiovisual and literary works, the discussion of the challenges other industries have faced when dealing with illegal filesharing seemed appropriate.

Your discussion of the relationship of the form to its audience's perception of its value is a very interesting one and one that I have spent some time thinking about with regards to media products. Lewis Hyde's book "The Gift" has some interesting commentary on this subject.

[SteveP]

if you think this is far off its not. A company as already lauched a service for playing EXTRMEMLY HIGH END PC games, at max detail on a standard HDMI tv with no computer at all. its all streamed it. The super fast computers doing the work are remote.

in the near future, there will prolly be nothing to share.
you can not share files you do not have possession of.
you can not share access to said content because location is EASY to verify.

While I have no doubts the technology is wonderful and works as described, making the technology work and having people adopt it are years and years apart.

For one thing, always on, anywhere internet is still a missing component in many parts of the country. What if my internet goes down for a while? I don't have access to anything workable on my PC because the OS is being served up remotely? That doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

There is always going to be a large share of consumers who want to own the product. The want the DVD, whether it's a movie or magic DVD. I want to watch that product on my TV. And while one day TVs will be connected to the web, right now most of them are not.

This also doesn't solve the problem of books that are scanned and placed on file sharing networks. So while the idea is interesting and certainly has applications for gaming, movies on demand, etc. I don't think you will see this in the magic community for many years.

[Scott M.]

I work in the film business, and just to give you a sense of some of the related arguments we are dealing with these days, check out this post that appeared on Mashable today titled "What the Movie Industry Needs To Do Win."

http://mashable.com/2009/06/12/movie-industry-win/

[Brad Henderson]

Steve,

I too feel that people will always want to be able to possess the hard copy. But the more I talk to people, the more I think I am the (happy) dinosaur in the room. I think that attitude is one of our generation, not the next or the forthcoming.

I don't like it either, but I am starting to accept the inevitable.

Brad

[Ted M]

This doesn't seem to be registering:

If the artist and publisher do NOT RELEASE the work to ANYONE until their COLLECTIVE AUDIENCE pays (in escrow) the FULL GROSS SUM that they expect to realize from the project, THEN at that point they can just release it into the world with permission to freely copy it and not lose sleep over who might be sharing it with whom. After all, they have ALREADY been FULLY PAID.

If the public needs prodding to pony up the money, one or more samples can be released to entice them. If the threshold is still not reached, the publisher can lower it (hello, market forces) or cancel the project, in which case the escrowed money is refunded.

If the publisher realizes the price has been set lower than optimal, the publisher will likely set a higher price for that artist's next work. (Hello again, market forces.)

This does not require expensive lawsuits, new legislation, a shift in law enforcement, ideological or cultural shifts among pirates, future technologies, etc. A publisher could do it right now.


Article link once more: http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bi ... ew/673/583

[Jonathan Townsend]

...they can just release it into the world with permission to freely copy it and not lose sleep over who might be sharing it with whom. After all, they have ALREADY been FULLY PAID.

gasp! what about the wholesalers and the next generation of newbies and...

Or we could condone shaming... as here: www.magicpiracy.org/

[joshua barrett]

Steve I agree, im not a proponent. I am just saying thats the way its heading, and piracy is fuel

[mrgoat]

This has nothing to do with creating cheaper products, such as downloadable DVD tracks so people don't have to buy the entire DVD.

Funny, that's what the music industry used to say too. Until it was proven that people actually DO want to buy individual tracks.

You bring up "fuss". Man, this really pissed them off. In one example I had Doc Hilford's Monster Mentalism set removed from RapidShare. It took over 40 files for someone to rip that 4 DVD set and upload it. They spent a few hours on it, that's for sure. I had it removed in minutes. And the person who posted all of those files complained because all of his hard work was gone. Interesting that he was concerned about HIS hard work and not the hard work of everyone else it took to create the DVDs. I told these guys several times that it takes no effort on my part to have their hours of work deleted. When it starts to become too much work on their part, it's not worth it anymore.

It certainly doesn't take 'hours'. There are programmes that do it all for you. You pop the DVD in, it's ripped in a few minutes. It then cuts the VIDEO_TS up into the par files for you. You then upload. I imagine a full DVD would be 'prepared' for piracy in about 20 minutes, with one button push. It's not hard or time consuming.

And it's very easy to get anything removed from rapidshare as they respond to DMCA notices. Doesn't work like P2P.

[mrgoat]

The company you refer to is called onlive and it's pretty amazing. Basically, you have on demand access to whatever you want. (Right now they are doing games and I believe software, but eventually they may host TV, movies, etc.). Imagine being able to access any episode, from any tv series, at any time - right now.

I thought it was in a very limited beta. Has this been changed? Their website still says it's in beta...

[Dave V]

I can see Onlive working for gamers, but not as well for video distribution. You still have the screen capture problem. It won't be that much different than people hooking up VCRs (DVD-R's) to their televisions. Now we're back to square one.

[joshua barrett]

I can see Onlive working for gamers, but not as well for video distribution. You still have the screen capture problem. It won't be that much different than people hooking up VCRs (DVD-R's) to their televisions. Now we're back to square one.

well your prolly never gonna get rid of it totally.
before digital sharing people still copied on VHS and such.

[SteveP]

This has nothing to do with creating cheaper products, such as downloadable DVD tracks so people don't have to buy the entire DVD.

Funny, that's what the music industry used to say too. Until it was proven that people actually DO want to buy individual tracks.

My statement was implying that by making every product available in many different formats as people want, will not prevent people from ripping off the producers and creators. And in our very, very, small industry it's not cost effective for most producers to do this.

Yes the recording industry wants to sell you their products in a way that they have always done. However music piracy is still running rampant, even with the existence of iTunes and other authorized services.

Your follow up statement is almost implying that because we can now buy tracks the way we want them, music piracy is a thing of the past. It's now easier to illegally share music.

It certainly doesn't take 'hours'. There are programmes that do it all for you. You pop the DVD in, it's ripped in a few minutes. It then cuts the VIDEO_TS up into the par files for you. You then upload. I imagine a full DVD would be 'prepared' for piracy in about 20 minutes, with one button push. It's not hard or time consuming.

And it's very easy to get anything removed from rapidshare as they respond to DMCA notices. Doesn't work like P2P.

It's very easy to rip a DVD and slice it up, however it can be VERY time consuming to upload several gigs of video data - and a 3 or 4 DVD set is going to be several gigs in size. Once it's taken down, you have to go through the hassle of doing it again. And I know it's a hassle for these people since I was interacting with them for several weeks. When those links came down, they were pissed and they felt defeated. There were posts that talked about how there was a "traitor" on the forum and if it kept up they weren't going to post any more.

If you read my earlier post, I had already mentioned that rapidshare and other file download sites are nothing like P2P. You're not telling me something I don't already know. But P2P isn't the only problem when it comes to file sharing. Literally thousands of people downloaded files over a two year span from the site I mentioned in my earlier post. I know that number to be true since many of those sites show how many times a file has been downloaded. So just because it wasn't P2P, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory for our side.

[Tim Ellis]

I guess Mr Goat has done an excellent job is answering my original question: "Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?"

It seems those people consider themselves on the cutting edge of technology, they have the power to do it, so why not?

They want to impress their "friends" and gain kudos for giving them DVDs free, that they would otherwise have to buy and, in exchange they get more DVDs free.

They don't see anyone being prosecuted or condemned for file sharing, despite being told it's illegal, so their conscience is clear. They feel "If it really was illegal, we'd be stopped. We're not, so the law must be turning a blind eye."

They want. They take. To hell with anyone else.


I must admit I'm worried that, in a few years, this generation will be in positions of power.

They'll be sitting there with the power and technology to do all kinds of things - fire workers, pollute the earth, deploy missiles - but they won't have the common sense, judgement or respect for others that such power used to come bundled with.


I know I'll be criticised for comparing the two but really, "Hey, I have the technology to rip your DVD and share it with the world, I don't care what you think, it's my right and I'm going to do it" isn't that far away from "Hey, I have a gun and the right to protect myself, I don't care what you think, you give me any trouble and I'm going to use it."

(For a more amusing, yet equally true, comparison, check out Weird Al Yankovic's song "I'll sue ya")


The root cause of this selfishness may run much deeper - but I still want to try to protect our little corner of the world.

[Matt Sedlak]

Cuz I mean...your generation is doing an excellent job being in charge of such things. But seriously doesn't every generation seem to say that about the next one? Regardless, your logic is very flawed. Perhaps I can link you to a torrent for an excellent logic text!

[Tim Ellis]

Thanks for such an astute comment Matt. You've really knocked me back down to size with your rock solid logic.

I do wonder though, as good as the current generation is at linking to torrents, do they every read or (gasp) understand what they read?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Please don't get me started on the state of writing in our craft.
Then again since it's the "secret" that's being sold - one should not care about any unsubstantiated, ill described strategies one might find described as the underlying ideas and the process for applying these ideas are not offered in most of our literature, right? Just how does one go about testing a proffered item to see if it suits or whether one would have to make unecological changes in ones attire, language or use of props in order to incorporate an item into ones show? Oops - gotta feed the elephant and try to ignore the mice right? Or is it starting to feel like feed the dinosaur and ignore the mice which are eating the eggs?

BTW - for the PC lockdown question - just a few clicks got me here:

http://www.hyperionics.com/

next question?

[Edward]

Tim, you have posted on this subject before and it gets the same responses for it.

I don't see any solutions that you have come up with?

Once a "secret" is put out to the public for consumption it ceases to be a secret.

[Edward]

Incidently the magicpiracy.org site that is said to be a step in the right direction? What do you think this will accomplish? Are we going to ban them from magicdom? If so wouldn't this drive these people further underground and increase piracy? As they would no longer have any access to legitimate purchases.

[SteveP]

Incidently the magicpiracy.org site that is said to be a step in the right direction? What do you think this will accomplish? Are we going to ban them from magicdom? If so wouldn't this drive these people further underground and increase piracy? As they would no longer have any access to legitimate purchases.

The dreaded "magic piracy underground", a place that exists in the minds of teenage boys thinking they're getting away with something.

Anything on the web is not "underground" and can be accessed with a simple search, which is how I found one site. I spent several hours on the phone with James Clark last month and this guy means business. He takes action and he really does have law enforcement show up at offender's residences.

Is piracy going to stop? Of course not. It's a constant pain that needs to be addressed and attacked at every instance. That takes time and effort, which many are reluctant to do.

While this long thread has been interesting, who on this thread has actually done anything about it? Two people have, me and Tim Ellis. Everyone else is just sitting back offering theories. James is the other person I know that is taking action. Three people can't do it alone.

You want to make a difference? Stop making it the fault of producers for not offering up products in a way that is cost prohibitive and currently not practical for this market and go out and look for these illegal files. Contact the creators, let them know what you found, where you found it and give them an opportunity to take action. Some will and some will not. Some will be successful and others will not. But until you've taken some real action to stop it, all you have is empty threats.

[JHostler]

This discussion reminds me of a mythical chess tournament staged in Branson, MO.

Kudos to Ellis & Carney for telling it like it is.

Matt & Goat - Well, eventually you'll understand where these guys are coming from. In a nutshell, "practicalities" never, NEVER trump ethics, morals, or principles.

I've given much material away "for free," sold some privately, and withheld the bulk for personal use & future development. But if I caught you or anyone else stealing from me (e.g., posting closely circulated manuscripts or TRE* on torrents or free download sites), I'd spare no effort or expense complicating your life(s). Perhaps if the common thief knew more wrath, he wouldn't be so common.

* Not that anyone would want to post these.

[Dave V]

I too helped shut down trading on one such site in much the same way as Steve. I didn't brag about it on the forum, and I'm still a member there so I can check back from time to time. When someone would offer a trade I'm PM back with "What do you have?" I'd then contact the copyright owners if I knew them and they could take it from there. I had an email conversation with the site owner who claimed to not know what was going on. He didn't have much time to talk as he said he up to his ears in attorneys at the moment. Shortly thereafter the site closed, and reopened later with a whole new attitude and admin staff.

It may not be a big victory, but every little bit helps.

I'm waiting for my registration to be approved on magicpiracy.org so I can get (and offer) a "heads up" on the forums that I currently manage or moderate.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'm still astonished that copyright does not address the matter. If a copyrighted work is used without permission one would expect the parties involved in its abuse would seek to stop further abuse.

http://www.zitzot.com/internet-piracy-c ... on-a-year/

News of the day above. Tom and Jerry indeed.

[Matt Sedlak]

Matt & Goat - Well, eventually you'll understand where these guys are coming from. In a nutshell, "practicalities" never, NEVER trump ethics, morals, or principles.

John I do understand where they are coming from and I can certainly understand their frustration. I am just a little more pragmatic and realize that the chances of piracy being stopped are slim to none. People mention having material taken down from sites but fail to mention/realize that those sites are the least trafficked when it comes to this kind of stuff. Still, I suppose a very small victory is better than none. Unfortunately this is not the type of war where a bunch of small victories will add up to a big one.

[JHostler]

John I do understand where they are coming from and I can certainly understand their frustration. I am just a little more pragmatic and realize that the chances of piracy being stopped are slim to none. People mention having material taken down from sites but fail to mention/realize that those sites are the least trafficked when it comes to this kind of stuff. Still, I suppose a very small victory is better than none. Unfortunately this is not the type of war where a bunch of small victories will add up to a big one.

Frighteningly similar to what you hear from staunch non-voters...

[Matt Sedlak]

Good thing I voted then ;)


Look...I've said I think it is wrong a number of times but despite it being wrong people are still being affected by it. Some people are trying to find ways to make it work for them rather than against them and are having some success. Others are hoping that people will suddenly gain morals or that law enforcement will put a stop to it. Those people are having little to no success. That's all I'm saying.

[Tim Ellis]

Matt: "Others are hoping that people will suddenly gain morals " "Those people are having little to no success"

My point exactly.

I believe the current generation, with all their access to technology, don't have the morals to use it with respect to others.


Simple: You have two websites up on your screen, both displaying a magic DVD you really want to see. Some say it's a great DVD, some say it's a waste of time, but you really want to check it out.

One site is a file-sharing site where, with one click of a button you'll download the DVD.

The other site is an online magic shop where, after paying them $25 with your credit card, you can download the DVD or have it posted to your address.

What would YOU do?

[Tim Ellis]

Jonathon, your link http://www.zitzot.com/internet-piracy-c ... on-a-year/ is interesting.

A sway to the "anti-copright" movement (no doubt from people who don't produce movies or music but want things to be free) while those who oppose "anti-copyright" seem to be the producers of movies and music.

One of the people mentioned who is against copyright is a chartered accountant. He wants people to give away the music and movies they produce. When he starts giving away free accountancy services, I'll agree with him.



And also it makes it very clear that yes, piracy is costing creators sales. $300 million a year in the UK alone. So the ongoing argument from the original post by the uploader of my DVD is negated:


"Regarding your potential losses, that is a bogus argument also. This is mere conjecture, innuendo, speculation and opinion. You do not really know that the downloaders of your material didnt buy your DVD after trying it out first or not. The truth is that many file-sharers use the mechanism as a 'try before you buy' and many of those that don't buy wouldn't have bought it anyway. While there is no doubt there may be some minimal lost revenue, the amount is unknown and almost certainly grossly overstated. If the industries or artists affected would price their products sensibly and improve the quality of the content fewer people would even bother to file share. See the comment by aaron85282 to your comment on the [file-sharing] website.

Furthermore, downloads DO NOT EQUATE to lost sales! At least, it has never been absolutely proven. The reality is that no one has ever been able to demonstrate any actual loss of revenue as a result of file-sharing. And if there was, the amount is unknown and almost certainy grossly overstated."

[Tim Ellis]

By the way, my DVD 'ELLIS IN WONDERLAND' has just been deleted from Demonoid.

I recommend the owners of the 216 other DVDs that Johncskate has uploaded also send a DMCA email to abuse@demonoid.com


Yes. It is a small victory.

It's a small industry.

It's either ours, or we hand it over to the file-sharers and the pirates and watch them destroy it.

[mrgoat]

Matt & Goat - Well, eventually you'll understand where these guys are coming from. In a nutshell, "practicalities" never, NEVER trump ethics, morals, or principles.

I completely get where they are coming from. I am just trying to politely point out that the time and energy they waste moaning about piracy and sending DCMA notices could be better spent trying to work out ways to make their content undownloadable. I say this because piracy will never be stopped.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm saying it's an unstoppable thing.

[mrgoat]

And also it makes it very clear that yes, piracy is costing creators sales. $300 million a year in the UK alone.

Nonsense. Look at the facts behind those figures:

"What is the origin of this conservative figure? I hunted down the full Ciber documents, found the references section, and followed the web link, which led to a 2004 press release from a private legal firm called Rouse who specialise in intellectual property law. This press release was not about the 10bn figure. It was, in fact, a one-page document, which simply welcomed the government setting up an intellectual property theft strategy. In a short section headed "background", among five other points, it says: "Rights owners have estimated that last year alone counterfeiting and piracy cost the UK economy 10bn and 4,000 jobs." An industry estimate, as an aside, in a press release. Genius."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -downloads

Problem is with spurious and nonsense figures is that you read them and blindly believe them. When you look at the source of the 'facts' you quote, you will see it's based on a guess.

[JHostler]

Goat & Matt -

One moment, you're arguing that piracy is unstoppable - the implication being that pirates are offering their rabid "customers" something of significant value. The next minute, you're intimating that commercial damage is unproven - and by extension that this value is minimal. WELL, WHICH IS IT? You can't have your cake and eat it too - unless self-delusion strikes your fancy.

Take one look at the music industry and you have your answer. This isn't rocket science, yet explaining it to you feels like teaching calculus to kindergartners.

John

[Tim Ellis]

Mr Goat "I am just trying to politely point out that the time and energy they waste moaning about piracy and sending DCMA notices could be better spent trying to work out ways to make their content undownloadable."

You've already argued that there is no way of stopping piracy, yet you think we should come up with different ways of downloading our product?

Why?


As soon as one pirate buys our content, they'll simply crack it and upload it to sharers.

Why spend the time, money and effort coming up with new ways if the future is ruled by pirates?

My point is to try to change their attitudes - try to recreate the "old school" respect.

But I guess that just shows how I'm not adapting with the changing times.

[Jonathan Townsend]

When publishing a book or DVD - are there business reasons to get as much sold as quickly as possible?

[Cain]

The toothpaste is out of the tube and you can't put it back in. This is an irresolvable collective action problem similar to people despoiling the commons, but different in that effective enforcement mechanisms are almost non-existent.

The saving grace of massive Internet piracy is that it discourages publication, especially video/DVD production. If people do not publish anything, then magic secrets are more likely to remain secret. We need a reset anyway; Year Zero cannot come soon enough.

What boggles my mind is that legitimate download sites keep popping up, the latest being Vanishing Inc. Clearly people are either making money selling instant downloads, or think they will make money selling instant downloads, but I can't imagine these professionally produced videos are not pirated within hours. I know that over five years ago umpteen Penguin clips -- demos, explanations -- appeared in more places on the Internet than my slutty sister's sex tape.

Which means... that for the creators/producers of commercial videos, the compensation and/or small measure of community recognition ("fame's" illegitimate step-child) is totally worth it. For them. And that's the problem: marginal private benefits versus marginal social costs.

Professional magicians: make your money performing for lay audiences. If professionals and amateurs want to establish their material (for reasons of ego, giving back to "the community," or whatever), then publish in magic journals or books.

The problem in my view is the hyper-commercialism of sites such as Ellusionist. Magic is supposed to be a niche activity (or "art," if you prefer).