Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

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Tim Ellis
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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 22nd, 2009, 11:10 pm

Hmmm.. maybe 52's name is already on the Wall of Shame? That would explain a lot.

Anyway, I'm still not 100% sure why 52 is so vehemently against me. Yes, I am a supporter of www.MagicPiracy.org

If he feels that entitles him to boycott me and tell people my DVDs are garbage, nothing but old ideas with just "a wacky twist", then so be it.

But he should also boycott all of the other supporters as well. (Not just easy targets like Angela Funovits either).

Andrew Mayne
Ben Harris
Danny Garcia
Dean Gold
Fun Inc
Handlordz
Jamie D Grant
Jessie's Magic
Keith Barry
Kevin James
Kozmo Magic
MagicSeen
Michaelangelo
Paul Harris
Reel Magic
Stevens Magic
Tim Trono
Trick Shop Magic
Viking Magic

Quite a diverse list.

Some even publish books too!

I don't know about whether the "Wall of Shame" will work or who's on it - as I explained - it's James Clark's way of fighting piracy and, so far, he's one of the few who's actually out there doing anything about it.

I can assume that people who CREATE magic (whether it be on DVD, books or as purchasable downloads) will want to reference the Wall of Shame to find out who's doing the pirating and if any of their products are being stolen.

I assume that you haven't created anything and put it out on the market, otherwise your opinion might be a little different.


Hey 52, FISM are even going to ban dealers from the Dealers Fair if they sell pirated material. I know it won't stop piracy, but I support that action too. I won't assume you are against such behaviour (after all, it's tantamount to trying them for piracy without a jury!) but I'm sure you'll let us know.



And just to correct a couple of your earlier statements:


52 said - "Ellis would like to see more people in jail and paying mass fines."
TIM - No. I'd like to see them stop stealing.

52 said - "I noticed Ellis has a set coming out and I read the hype and judging by the titles of the effects, it's just the same old routines, but with Ellis' "wacky twist"."
TIM - These videos were released in 2004. Thankfully the reviewers disagreed with you and found many of the plots and methods refreshing and original.

52 said - "For awhile I and some peers across the globe would sit in a video chat room. Normally it would be 5-10 of us sessioning. At first glance people like Ellis would think we are sharing sacred secrets of cards with each other, ripping off so and so, trying to get a free ride."
TIM - I can't speak for "people like me" but no, I don't think that at all.

52 said - "And would people like Ellis think having sessions in private with people is "naughty" because we are being open."
TIM - Again I can't speak for "people like me" but no, I don't.

52 said - "If your really skilled, print a book."
TIM - My good friend Tommy Wonder put his life's work in two volumes 'The Books of Wonder'. I'm sure you would agree they are excellent. But he didn't make any money at all publishing them. In fact, he may have even lost money. He did, however, make money with the associated set of DVDs. Not only that, but many people found it much easier learning the effects from the DVDs rather than the books. After all, magic is a visual art. Can you honestly say it's easier to learn a card move from a book rather than seeing it performed on a DVD? I guess you can't, otherwise you wouldn't have webcam sessions would you... you'd just type descriptions of your moves...

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby 52facination » June 22nd, 2009, 11:35 pm

MagicPiracy.org is wrong in it's approach. Many agree to say the least. That's just the way you are Ellis figuring I must be a bad guy. Many people have mailed me the past month or so stating how sickening they think that web site is. Posting books that are "out there" (who knew till he put up a big list), putting public domain on that list, stating they have a right to put up people's private information. Horrible. Regular Joe people that put into the market on what is deserved I'm sure. (A few names everyone here would know in fact)

It's like I stated before it's a sticky wicky with that place. In saying you disagree you must hate magic and the people that deserve or something.

Anyway. I'll leave it be. Last person in the world I want to tick off is Richard. I buy all his stuff for right reason and out of nothing but respect. Thus respect here. I think the past posts speak bounds. A few have said so in the background, but of course they don't want to speak openly because of the same Ellis is doing to me in stating things like "You must be on the Wall".

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Randy Naviaux » June 23rd, 2009, 12:01 am

"The appearance of all my copyrighted books as pdf downloads on torrent sites, books on which I worked for many years, makes me sick. I have no pity whatsoever for the people who scan and post my copyrighted work: they should be publicly named. If they're not ashamed, well, so are lots of other criminals. Here there is no legal recourse, so let their names be known.

In the meantime, I have stopped working on every single manuscript. I have other things to do in life than allow my work of decades which has yet to be published to be sucked up by ignorant [censored] and spit out for free to any boob who can download a pdf file. "

Sorry to hear that Mr. Kaufman.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby John M. Dale » June 23rd, 2009, 12:20 am

Mr. Yandorf,

Nice try, but did you actually read the 4 year old articles to which you linked?

From the last paragraph of your first link:

"Mr. Garland thinks it would be a mistake to blame Apple for profiting from piracy, because file-sharing was flourishing years before Apple introduced the iPod. "If you need a bogeyman, and the entertainment industry always needs a bogeyman, the best I can offer is the 21st century," he says."

Your second link was written from the perspective of Rob Glaser, the founder of RealNetworks, who at the time of the article 4 years ago was locked in a losing battle with iTunes & Apple trying to sell the idea that a monthly subscription music service was the way to go instead of actually buying and owning the music of which consumers wanted to listen. Glaser has had a bone up his ass about Steve Jobs ever since QuickTime wiped the floor with Real Video in terms of quality. (Or maybe you're on the same page as Mr. Glaser and are suggesting that magic DVD's should be available on a similar subscription service instead of being sold on disc.)

Have any recent data (within the last year) that you can cite that supports your claim about Jobs & Woz?

Anecdotal personal info: I've owned an iPod and I'm on my second iPhone. 1518 songs (10.7 GB of music) and NOT ONE pirated song. I have many iPod & iPhone using friends and I don't know of a single one that has pirated music. I'm sure pirates are out there using them but the iPod & iPhone weren't the designed with profit from piracy in mind.

JMD

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby John M. Dale » June 23rd, 2009, 12:23 am

Jim Maloney wrote:
M. Yandorf wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
M. Yandorf wrote:Steve Wozniak and Jobs are benefiting from illegal p2p.


Citation needed. That's some claim.


No citation is need, ask anyone who has an ipod, but if you insist here you go:
http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2 ... acy_1.html

"The amount of downloading from file-sharing networks is roughly double what it was two years ago when iTunes started."


Mr. Garland thinks it would be a mistake to blame Apple for profiting from piracy, because file-sharing was flourishing years before Apple introduced the iPod. "If you need a bogeyman, and the entertainment industry always needs a bogeyman, the best I can offer is the 21st century," he says.


And another:
http://management.silicon.com/itdirecto ... 844,00.htm
"Apple slammed for piracy-fuelling iPod"

...by one of Apple direct competitors in the digital music business.

-Jim


Damn, Jim,

You're a way faster typist than I. Sorry to point out the same facts that you cited.

JMD

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby David Alexander » June 23rd, 2009, 12:24 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:In the meantime, I have stopped working on every single manuscript. I have other things to do in life than allow my work of decades which has yet to be published to be sucked up by ignorant [censored] and spit out for free to any boob who can download a pdf file.


Then the [censored] win and the rest of us and future magicians - amateur and professional - are diminished in ways I can't imagine.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby John M. Dale » June 23rd, 2009, 12:26 am

M. Yandorf wrote:Believe what you want, but I challenge you to find one ipod without bootlegged music on it.

I don't understand how bootleg music will help the music industry.

I don't understand how bootlegging magic videos will help the magic instructional video industry.

When music bootlegs became more popular Tower closed it's stores, read the article by CBS news which I linked above.


Come by my house & I'll show you my iPhone. Zero bootlegged music!!

JMD

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 12:42 am

52facination wrote:A few have said so in the background, but of course they don't want to speak openly because of the same Ellis is doing to me in stating things like "You must be on the Wall".



If you can't spell or compose a sentence properly, please quote me correctly.

I said "Hmmm.. maybe 52's name is already on the Wall of Shame? That would explain a lot."

I did NOT say your name must be on the wall.

I suggested that maybe that could be a reason why you won't tell us who you are...


But just like the pirates who post copies of other peoples DVD on torrent sites (and I'm not saying you are a pirate - or even a "bad guy") you hide behind an anonymous user name.


I, for one, would take your arguments a whole lot more seriously if you had the courage to sign your name to them.


That, perhaps, is the reason for James Clark's 'Wall of Shame'. Some people are quite happy to steal, cheat, lie and yell abuse from the safety of a hidden user name. But shine a lit into the shadows and reveal their true identity and they usually lift their game.


If someone sends an anonymous, threatening letter to me in the mail, the law considers that illegal. I'm totally within my rights to track down who sent it and prosecute them as well as telling my colleagues who they are and what they did.

If someone takes my DVD and uploads it on a torrent site, anonymously, but I'm able to track them down because their real name is listed on the internet, I am within my rights to report them to the authorities and to warn my colleagues about this person's behaviour.


On the topic of privacy on the net - Last year, or the year before, we were discussing Dave Castle and his website that collects all the exposure/tutorial clips on YouTube in the one place so those who want to know how the latest tricks work can see them easily. (Maybe they want to "review" the trick before they buy it.. yeah, right)

His name and address were posted in this forum and several people got terribly upset citing "Invasion of privacy!" despite the fact that Dave Castle already had those details posted on his MANY public websites.


Are you saying it's fine to upload someone's DVD without their permission, but it's AGAINST THE LAW to post that person's name and address on the web? (Perhaps those who wish to post names and addresses should take a lesson from torrent sharers and simply post a URL to the person's name and address... would that be better? For example - if I posted Mr Goat's phone number here, it might upset some people, but instead I could simply say... if you want his phone number, go here http://www.damianjennings.com/ )

Do you value (perceived) privacy over intellectual property?

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 12:46 am

David Alexander wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:In the meantime, I have stopped working on every single manuscript. I have other things to do in life than allow my work of decades which has yet to be published to be sucked up by ignorant [censored] and spit out for free to any boob who can download a pdf file.


Then the [censored] win and the rest of us and future magicians - amateur and professional - are diminished in ways I can't imagine.



Richard is not the only magic creator who has decided to stop releasing product.

This is the main reason why we must continue to try to fight against piracy.

If we simply do nothing, a whole lot more creators will take Richard's approach.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby John M. Dale » June 23rd, 2009, 12:48 am

Richard Kaufman wrote: In the meantime, I have stopped working on every single manuscript. I have other things to do in life than allow my work of decades which has yet to be published to be sucked up by ignorant [censored] and spit out for free to any boob who can download a pdf file.


So, Richard, the "ignorant [censored]" are going to cause you to punish people like me who have supported your publishing efforts for years (and continue to, speaking as a loyal Genii subscriber)?

No offense intended, but is this really a "win" in your opinion?

JMD

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Scott M. » June 23rd, 2009, 12:56 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:In the meantime, I have stopped working on every single manuscript. I have other things to do in life than allow my work of decades which has yet to be published to be sucked up by ignorant [censored] and spit out for free to any boob who can download a pdf file.


Are you really saying that you are opting out of the book publishing business because of piracy? That's a huge statement. I'm a content creator too -- both print and film -- and have, like everyone in my industries, been hit by piracy as well. I'm thinking of how to continue to make a living now that piracy has scrambled things up, but I wouldn't think of stopping entirely doing something I like doing because of it.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby David Alexander » June 23rd, 2009, 12:56 am

Frankly, I don't permit the [censored] of the world to dictate how I live my life or what I do with my creative energies.

Neither should anyone else.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 1:20 am

Many magic content creators (like Richard and myself) have other ways of making a living.

The majority of my income comes from performing.

I think I can speak for Richard to when I say that creating magic content is more of a pleasure than a money-making business. I gave the example of Tommy Wonder earlier.

Yes, you can make a small amount of money, but nowhere near the work you put into creating your product.

Not only do the pirates rob you of the chance to break even (and maybe make a buck or two) they take the fun out of it.

Who wants to spend months or years crafting a product only to finally release it and suddenly discover that - though you've only sold 100 copies - everyone seems to have a "copy" already.

52 may not like our DVDs, but Sue-Anne and I put our heart, soul and $10,000 of our earnings into creating them so we could give back to the industry. I believe that Richard thinks that way as well. He is also proud of his products. They are, in a sense, our children that will live on long after we're gone.

We need to sell them so we cover our production costs.

We'd like to sell lots so we can get some small recompense for our time and creativity.

We don't want to create content so people can give praise to johncskate because he gave them a free copy.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 23rd, 2009, 1:41 am

When creativy hits the unmovable wall of commerce it's never a win-win for anyone involved. It's death, and loss, for the creative spirit and an end to the MODEST amounts we used to be able to make on publishing books that took years to write and years to illustrate.

It's too bad, really, if nice folks get caught up in the [censored].

But isn't that the way of the world?

The legacy of corporations that control everything so that regardless of what should really be done for customers, it just doesn't happen. Companies like Toyota and Verizon, the two that I just was lucky enough to deal with today, are two of the worst piece of [censored] companies that love to put their customers through hell rather than just give the customer a simple straight answer and then fix the problem. But NO! What you get is rigamorole and crap whirling around in a great vortex of [censored]. Fix my phone, fix my car, or F*CK OFF!

To which Toyota and Verizon reply, "We're sorry that you're having a problem sir, is there anything else we can do for you today?" DAMN RIGHT, you can FIX my DAMN problems you bunch of crackpot [censored].

"What problem is that, sir" Why the damn problem I just told you and three guys before you about, the problem I just filled out four forms about, the problem you can't identify (but I can), and you can't give me a reason it's happening or what you can do about it despite the fact that I've wasted half my day on you and your [censored].

Why should the many pay the price because of the misbehavior of the few. But that's the way it is and until it changes, they could break into my house and waterboard me before those f*ckers would rip another page of my writing out of me to give away for free on their damn pirate torrent sites.

Here's how I protest: fix the goddam f*cking system so people who write get some protection for their work. Then I'll write again.
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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 5:25 am

M. Yandorf wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
So, piracy of jazz is not to blame for the closure of Tower Records brick and mortar stores.





I never said, "piracy of jazz." There is very little jazz piracy especially compared to rock and country.
I said:
- p2p let to Tower's problems
- Tower stores are closed
- Blue note, verve, Fantasy Jazz, ect... no longer have a store to sell their goods

This leads to an aweful situation:
- Very little good jazz on p2p
- No stores to purchase a wide jazz selection





Alternatively, you actually said:

"Jazz sales are dieing off, jazz music (which was not too popular to begin with) is becoming less profitable and less wide spread... File sharing has caused this. "

Do try and keep up, will you?

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 5:29 am

M. Yandorf wrote:When music bootlegs became more popular Tower closed it's stores, read the article by CBS news which I linked above.


Again, you really need to start looking at sources, not headlines. The source for your claim that piracy is what screwed Tower is this:

"Reisman cited record piracy as a major factor in music retailing's demise, saying, "The person who is buying CDs, the predominant person is teenagers who shopped in the past at stores such as Tower, and they are no longer shopping at Tower. They are taking the music online without having to pay for it.""

So, again, it's ONE GUY who is GUESSING. No proof at all. In the same article you cite, it suggest a slightly more plausible explanation:

"Those trends and a major slump in the music industry followed fast on the heels of the company's 1998 decision to expand using $110 million of borrowed money."

I'll vote for that over piracy.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 5:31 am

M. Yandorf wrote:
When people started to get music for free, they stopped purchasing it, and publishers, like Verve and Blue Note, severally cut down on their new releases.


Mr Yandorf. I'll say it again as it's not sinking in.

THERE IS NO PROPER JAZZ PIRACY.

Got it?

Jazz heads like decent quality and rare music. These two factors are the opposite of P2P with generally low quality and very very popular artists.

Piracy is not, however you look at it, to blame for Blue Notes lack of releases. Unless you actually have some facts, or evidence to support your claim.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 7:15 am

M. Yandorf wrote:Believe what you want, but I challenge you to find one ipod without bootlegged music on it.


So, you can find no proof to back up your ridiculous claim, so challenge me to prove that ipods DON'T have stolen content on? Sigh.

M. Yandorf wrote:I don't understand how bootleg music will help the music industry.


No one claimed it would

M. Yandorf wrote:I don't understand how bootlegging magic videos will help the magic instructional video industry.


Again, no one claimed it would.


M. Yandorf wrote:When music bootlegs became more popular Tower closed it's stores, read the article by CBS news which I linked above.


I did, I quoted the SOURCE of that review, which was no one. There is no proof or facts or research in the article you link to.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 7:18 am

So you have someone that spends a lot of money on magic books. Mr K's target audience. They are serious. They have a library. They have reference stuff on the computer so they can find the trick in the book they want. Etc. They have spent thousands on books and will continue to do so.

Then you have a snotty 15 year old kid who gets the book, scans it, and sends round a PDF of it.

I cannot see that any serious magician would not be prepared to pay almost anything asked for the new Jennings book. Those who buy it will relish it, like all the books Mr K put out. But they will not only relish the content, but the book itself.

Some kids might scan it and swop about a PDF, but I honestly do not believe those people were *ever* likely to actually *buy* the book.

I do not think people trading a title by Mr K represent a lost sale. And I think it's a horrible shame that Mr K has decided to stop work on all books.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 7:46 am

Tim Ellis wrote:Why does Mr Goat never ask 52 Facination to cit his ridiculous statements?


They don't seem ridiculous to me.

Tim Ellis wrote:Every time those two hit this thread, the whole mood changes from discussion to argument. (And yes Mr Goat, there is a difference). [Citation for this statement = look back over the thread]


I don't think you mean 'argument'. Here is the definition:

"a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal; "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on""

I think that you get awfully annoyed by my posts because I disagree with you. That's totally fine and I defend to the death your right to disagree with me. However, if you look over this thread, the most constructive, positive, sensible and realistic ideas forward have actually come from me. Along with some snark when people suggest jazz piracy is to blame for Tower's demise etc. :)

Just because I show you where your logic is flawed and point out the lack of evidence to support your claims, whilst at the same time showing you evidence that supports my POV, there is no need to get quite so annoyed. Although I can understand your frustration

We're batting for the same side here Tim. We both think piracy is bad. Why don't you try and stop acting so aggressively toward me and try and move this forward?

Surely that would be more useful for everyone involved?

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 8:24 am

Damian, if you insist that some posters on this thread "cite examples" when they offer statements that appear to be anecdotal at best, but you don't pull up 52 when he says things like "Ellis would like to see more people in jail and paying mass fines" or deliberately misquotes, then I really can't consider your arguments balanced.

And no, you still haven't shown me my logic is flawed. You've merely ignored most of the questions I've posed on this thread (like "Do you value (perceived) privacy over intellectual property?" and focussed on others instead).


52 does the same thing though, so you're in good company.

You say you're against piracy, but it can never be stopped, so people need to find news ways to distribute their content. Which would be appalling to many people. To quote David Alexander "I don't permit the [censored] of the world to dictate how I live my life or what I do with my creative energies."



If you try to fight them as I do (which you keep pointing out is useless) then you have been dictated to.

If you stop producing as Richard has, you've been dictated to.

If you find a new way to distribute your content, you've been dictated to.

So for many people the solution is to do nothing - so as not to be dictated to - but eventually piracy will become so rampant you'll have no choice but react in some way.

So far no-one has come up with any suggestions as to how to distribute content that won't result in your content being pirated.

I don't believe it's possible.

Until then, rather than do nothing, I'll continue to attempt to educate the potential purchasers of magic products by letting them know how much harm they are doing to this industry if they pirate instead of supporting creators by buying.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 9:03 am

Tim Ellis wrote:Damian, if you insist that some posters on this thread "cite examples" when they offer statements that appear to be anecdotal at best, but you don't pull up 52 when he says things like "Ellis would like to see more people in jail and paying mass fines" or deliberately misquotes, then I really can't consider your arguments balanced.


And you are totally within your rights to not only consider me unbalanced, but also to ignore me totally.

Tim Ellis wrote:And no, you still haven't shown me my logic is flawed. You've merely ignored most of the questions I've posed on this thread (like "Do you value (perceived) privacy over intellectual property?" and focussed on others instead).


I've not responded to questions you've asked that I don't have an opinion on or care about.

I snip the parts of your posts I don't think are worth answering.

Tim Ellis wrote:You say you're against piracy, but it can never be stopped, so people need to find news ways to distribute their content.


Yup. By jove, I do believe he's got it!


Tim Ellis wrote:If you try to fight them as I do (which you keep pointing out is useless) then you have been dictated to.

If you stop producing as Richard has, you've been dictated to.

If you find a new way to distribute your content, you've been dictated to.

So for many people the solution is to do nothing - so as not to be dictated to -


Can't find anyone suggesting 'do nothing' on this thread.

Tim Ellis wrote:but eventually piracy will become so rampant you'll have no choice but react in some way.


Really? Says who? Piracy has been around since the printing press was introduced. In fact, monks at them time viewed the printing press as a piracy device. You seem to be unable to find any facts about piracy numbers that are not 'some bloke' guessing.

Tim Ellis wrote:So far no-one has come up with any suggestions as to how to distribute content that won't result in your content being pirated.

I don't believe it's possible.


We agree on something.

Tim Ellis wrote:Until then, rather than do nothing, I'll continue to attempt to educate the potential purchasers of magic products by letting them know how much harm they are doing to this industry if they pirate instead of supporting creators by buying.


Great. You do that.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 9:11 am

So.. You say you're against piracy, but it can never be stopped, so people need to find news ways to distribute their content. (By jove I've got it!) and you agree with me that it's impossible to distribute your content without it being pirated...

So why are you looking for what you agree is impossible to find?

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2009, 9:19 am

So far - nobody here's saying it's good or even okay to upload copyrighted data.

And some here have argued that those involved in uploading are not even the customer base.

Tim Ellis wrote:...(By jove I've got it!) and you agree with me that it's impossible to distribute your content without it being pirated...

So why are you looking for what you agree is impossible to find?


And it looks like Tim just "got it" that an open mass market will have some copyright violations floating around just like the other mass markets for data have in this day and age. Interesting use of the name of Jove there. Glad to see we're mostly on the same page.

As to withholding magic data and retarding the advance of this craft... IMHO that's its own issue and probably worthy of discussion on a seperate thread.
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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jim Maloney » June 23rd, 2009, 9:52 am

Tim Ellis wrote:So.. You say you're against piracy, but it can never be stopped, so people need to find news ways to distribute their content. (By jove I've got it!) and you agree with me that it's impossible to distribute your content without it being pirated...

So why are you looking for what you agree is impossible to find?


One of the reasons iTunes has been so successful is because Apple said "Hey, people want to download music. Rather than just letting them do it illegally, how about we offer a service that will provide legal music downloads?" And now, people actually pay to download music (the same music that they could still get for free by downloading ilegally).

The point is not to prevent piracy (although I won't blame anyone for wanting to take action against those who have stolen from them), but rather to take a look at the trends, see what it is that people truly want, and figure out a way to fill that void while still being compensated for your efforts.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 11:56 am

Tim Ellis wrote:So.. You say you're against piracy, but it can never be stopped, so people need to find news ways to distribute their content. (By jove I've got it!) and you agree with me that it's impossible to distribute your content without it being pirated...

So why are you looking for what you agree is impossible to find?



As I've mentioned, if you use quotations and then ask questions about them, it will stop you (albeit amusingly petulantly) misconstruing things and trying to put words into my mouth.

It's impossible to stop piracy.
It's impossible to distribute content digitally without it being pirated.

That's it. I'm looking for nothing impossible. I'm looking for ways to distribute content that maximise revenue whilst minimising theft.

I do hope that's clear for you now. You funny chap.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby M. Yandorf » June 23rd, 2009, 12:10 pm

This is going to be my final post/response about Tower.

The wiki quote says it all, and it is footnoted:
"Tower Records entered bankruptcy for the first time in 2004. Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters, and internet piracy"

Do a simple google search for "piracy" and "Tower records" there are tons of posts supporting this assertion.

I'm not going to defend my assertion about Tower any more, just know this...

When torrents became popular Tower closed it's stores.
People who can get music for free do not buy music.
People who get magic videos for free do not buy magic videos.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2009, 12:19 pm

M. Yandorf wrote:....
People who can get music for free do not buy music.
People who get magic videos for free do not buy magic videos.


Such people, as discussed, are *not* part of our market and we are not helping ourselves by fretting over them.

Now if you'd like to discuss ways of expanding the social circles that extend out from the underground and publishers to the brick and mortar magic shops - their gatherings and the mentoring that goes from there - yes please - we need that IMHO.

When folks don't have frequent and direct contact with those who can set them working toward productive ends we get chaos. Part of that chaos is the flood of unvetted, unproved and impractial works in our market. Another part of that chaos is the turbulence of swapping and copying that happens when many people are looking and don't have much guidance.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 1:20 pm

M. Yandorf wrote:This is going to be my final post/response about Tower.

The wiki quote says it all, and it is footnoted:
"Tower Records entered bankruptcy for the first time in 2004. Factors cited were the heavy debt incurred during its aggressive expansion in the 1990s, growing competition from mass discounters, and internet piracy"

Do a simple google search for "piracy" and "Tower records" there are tons of posts supporting this assertion.

I'm not going to defend my assertion about Tower any more, just know this...

When torrents became popular Tower closed it's stores.
People who can get music for free do not buy music.
People who get magic videos for free do not buy magic videos.


Torrents have been popular for WAY longer than the Tower debacle.

OK. If you want to believe the articles you quoted, where one guy guesses something, great. All I did was try and help you realise that basing a belief on something unfounded, with no research to back it up, that one guy in an office said and ADMITTED was a guess, then that's fine.

I prefer to base my views on things that have facts behind them.

However, I'm still not convinced that you are merely trolling...

Jazz piracy indeed! Lol.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Randy Naviaux » June 23rd, 2009, 1:29 pm

I totally get where you are coming from Mr. Kaufman. Sure wish I could do something to help out.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jim Maloney » June 23rd, 2009, 2:06 pm

mrgoat wrote:Torrents have been popular for WAY longer than the Tower debacle.

...

I prefer to base my views on things that have facts behind them.


Define "WAY longer". The BitTorrent protocol was created in the middle of 2001. Tower Records went into their first bankruptcy (the one that some claim was at least partially the result of piracy) in early 2004. That's two and a half years. Even if we're talking about Napster, which was p2p but didn't use the torrent protocol, that came out in June 1999. So, four and a half years. Yes, in terms of technology, that could be considered a very long time, but when we're talking about business, I don't think that's long at all.

File sharing in general has a long history, with floppy disks and USENET appearing back in the 70's, but if you're going to say that torrents were popular long before Tower Records went out of business, then I think you're wrong, based on the facts.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jim Maloney » June 23rd, 2009, 2:10 pm

mrgoat wrote:Jazz piracy indeed! Lol.


Also, his point has never been about the piracy of jazz music, but rather the the piracy of music in general was a factor in the troubles of the jazz-friendly Tower Records. I doubt Tower made a ton of money on their jazz products, but the Top 40 ones certainly would have accounted for significant portion of their revenue.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 3:27 pm

Jim Maloney wrote:
mrgoat wrote:Torrents have been popular for WAY longer than the Tower debacle.

...

I prefer to base my views on things that have facts behind them.


Define "WAY longer". The BitTorrent protocol was created in the middle of 2001. Tower Records went into their first bankruptcy (the one that some claim was at least partially the result of piracy) in early 2004. That's two and a half years. Even if we're talking about Napster, which was p2p but didn't use the torrent protocol, that came out in June 1999. So, four and a half years. Yes, in terms of technology, that could be considered a very long time, but when we're talking about business, I don't think that's long at all.

File sharing in general has a long history, with floppy disks and USENET appearing back in the 70's, but if you're going to say that torrents were popular long before Tower Records went out of business, then I think you're wrong, based on the facts.

-Jim


Sorry, slip of the snark. Of course, I meant piracy, not torrents. And USENET is still totally alive and kicking and the source of much of the piracy of adult content.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby mrgoat » June 23rd, 2009, 3:34 pm

Jim Maloney wrote:
mrgoat wrote:Jazz piracy indeed! Lol.


Also, his point has never been about the piracy of jazz music, but rather the the piracy of music in general was a factor in the troubles of the jazz-friendly Tower Records. I doubt Tower made a ton of money on their jazz products, but the Top 40 ones certainly would have accounted for significant portion of their revenue.

-Jim


It's a miracle any music stores are still in business. Or games stores. Or video stores. And those TV channels, how the hell are they still going? After all if Tower closed because of piracy, surely the others should have too? And those adult book stores! How are they still going?

It's really easy for 'some guy' to blame piracy for a mismanaged company going tits up. But until there is at least a shred of evidence linking the two (and not 'some guy' guessing style evidence) I don't buy it.

Heck, even the RIAA's own research links P2P to an increase in music purchasing.

They over-borrowed, at a bad time. They opened too many stores. They cocked up. It's a shame, but it's business.

However, the demise of one music store doesn't really help us out here. Unless the point is that old dinosaurs that fail to adapt are likely to go under?

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jim Maloney » June 23rd, 2009, 3:58 pm

I agree with you about the Tower Records situation. If piracy was the problem, iTunes and Amazon MP3 never would have even gotten a foothold, let alone be successful. My point was that you were focusing on piracy of jazz music, when that wasn't his point at all.

Of interest, perhaps: Napster credited with taking Radiohead to #1 on the Billboard charts. "But mass Internet trading did not kill Kid A's sales. In fact, it seems that the music's availability on Napster promoted sales just as heavy radio air play promotes - not damages - record sales in a world where most households have cassette recorders."

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby JHostler » June 23rd, 2009, 5:16 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
M. Yandorf wrote:....
People who can get music for free do not buy music.
People who get magic videos for free do not buy magic videos.


Such people, as discussed, are *not* part of our market and we are not helping ourselves by fretting over them.


Repeating this theory makes it no more (or less) valid. What exactly makes you think the folks now downloading free videos weren't purchasing them before their availability on torrents? Having opened a fresh Demonoid account and perused the downloaders' comments, some of them appear to be relatively savvy members of "our market" - at least savvy enough to know the desirability and rarity of certain items.
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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2009, 5:19 pm

The question I'm addressing, John, is whether they'd be buying those videos or just borrowing them from the club or trading them with peers. IMHO it's the latter and this internet stuff is just a more visible sort of lending library.

Market analysis as cited earlier would put the more likely hypothesis as "those who are wont to buy such things will do so" and I'll leave the counter to those who wish to prove that our market is different from those of music and movies.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 6:48 pm

How about this as a solution.

Magic shops put their DVDs all sitting out on the counter.

People can help themselves and only leave money for the DVD if they are genuine buyers.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Tim Ellis » June 23rd, 2009, 6:53 pm

For those who insist what James Clark is doing with his 'Wall of Shame' is illegal.

Take a look at this article from 4 days ago http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 61,00.html

It's about a man who set up a website where anonymous users could post unsubstantiated allegations about others, including their names, addresses and telephone numbers.

The website creator vehemently defends the site under the banner of 'Free Speech'.

The police can't shut it down because he's not breaking the law. (In an ironic twist, today's paper has a story where the creator is very upset because HE'S now receiving threats).

At least James Clark, when he posts details, he substantiates his claims and puts his own name up there as well. He reports the facts after an investigation.

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Re: Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 23rd, 2009, 6:55 pm

As to posting names and addresses - maybe if they are convicted sex offenders but so far judges have demanded folks take down such things especially if law enforcement staff are listed.

According to what others have said and that list on the magicpiracy.org site it would seem magic shops don't have to put the DVDs out as they are already online.

So aside from bad service and "you pay for the secret", what can a magic shop offer that would help make better customers out of those willing to pay for their education?
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