FISM 2009 Venue Change !

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CraigMitchell
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FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 13th, 2008, 12:16 pm

This appeared on FISM's website. I haven't read anything about it anywhere ...

"New Venue for the FISM World Championships of Magic 2009 in Beijing

After multiple discussions about the best venue to host the 2009 event in Beijing, Mr Lin Jian, President of the organising committee has proposed to drop the National Grand Theatre in favour of the China National Convention Centre, in the heart of the Olympic Green in the North of Beijing.

Reserves and concerns expressed over the initial venue on Tianenmen square were the difficulty to organise a compact event with great distances between the different rooms (dealer fair, competitions, lectures, etc.) and the lack of hotels nearby.

The China National Convention Centre, which is to be home of the modern Pentathlon as well as the broadcast centre for the 2008 Beijing Olympic games, will allow a much more intimate event. Further details about the new venue will be released later on www.fism2009.org "
What do you know about this ?

The above raises some serious concerns:

A - The initial venue - by their own admission - had problems which were clearly ignored in selecting it in the first place.

If the first venue was flawed - why was it selected ?

B - Delegates from across the globe were shown the National Grand Theatre as part of the site inspection. One would assume on the basis of the site inspections, information presented etc. Beijing got the vote ( amongst much behind the scenes negotiations )

Now - the venue is significantly changed with less than 18 months to go ... the venue plays a pivotal role in the selection of any bid city. Who is to say that the delegates would have approved of Beijing knowing the change in venue ?

Much of Beijing's publicised bid appeal was this ultra-sophisticated new performance venue ...

Very peculiar.

I wonder what other factors are at play regarding this very sudden change.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2008, 3:18 pm

The fact that the hotels were not nearby (there were none within walking distance), and the fact that the dealer's room would be located in a different venue, have always been known and were told to us when were in Beijing. So, that's not news. Why they decided now that these things required a change in venue is unknown. And will probably remain so.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2008, 3:26 pm

Took me long enough to find it! It's not on the FISM 2009 website and it was hard to dig up on the regular website.

This is all I've been able to find out about the new venue:
http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/126399.htm
http://www.arup.com/eastasia/project.cfm?pageid=3678
http://aime.amlinkevents.com/ei/cm.esp? ... G&nid=1941
http://www.cnsimages.com/ProductDetail/297104.html
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby MaxNY » February 13th, 2008, 5:18 pm

Bait and switch? Low...I wasn't planning on going anyway. I would advise all to save money and head to Kentucky instead!

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2008, 6:05 pm

Head to Kentucky? The conventions have nothing to do with one another and are a year apart! I can assure you that going to Kentucky is nothing like going to China. :)
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby MaxNY » February 13th, 2008, 9:56 pm

Apples and Horse's, OK I know. But, if I go to China, it's to see China, not attend a magic convention in a place where they have had only three. I'm not very impressed with their acts either, from what I have seen, it's the bowls of water from their robes trick...FISM stiffed USA, and they will lose their shirts by going to China.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 13th, 2008, 10:36 pm

Ah, a not-so-hidden agenda in Max's statements.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 13th, 2008, 11:23 pm

"Took me long enough to find it! It's not on the FISM 2009 website and it was hard to dig up on the regular website."

Exactly - this change would appear to have been purposely kept quiet which again does not do much for transparency.

Reading between the lines is it possible that "intimate" = "low numbers" ... or again - what is really happening behind the scenes ?

No matter what the reason - the manner in which the change was done / communicated leaves a lot to be desired.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 14th, 2008, 12:13 am

It is also intriguing that the FISM delegates were not consulted on the change. They are just as surprised as us in reading the news.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby MaxNY » February 14th, 2008, 4:15 am

This also begs the question, why did they give a thumbs up to a location that would have three seperate roofs, all not accessible by foot.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Brandon Hall » February 14th, 2008, 9:56 am

This would be an excellent reason to visit China, but the timing is poor. I do not believe we should be honoring them with our presence OR our money. Granted I would love to see their country, but I DO have a conscience. JMHO.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Roger M. » February 14th, 2008, 10:23 am

I think folks have their heads in the sand on this one.
FISM cetainly ISN'T the Olympics, and the world WON'T be watching.

Full Disclosure:
I have issues with countries that practice public execution.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 14th, 2008, 12:06 pm

Max, FISM is so large that the attendees have to stay in a variety of hotels. It's much nicer when they're walking distance, as they were in Holland. But in Stockholm there was only one hotel in walking distance, and it was at the convention center which was really in the middle of nowhere. I never left the whole time. Most attendees stayed in hotels that were accessible by train. So, there is a precedent for not having the hotels on site.

All of this said, the man in charge, Mr. Lin, does not have unrealistic expectations about the number of people who will attend. He is not expecting the usual 2000 or 2500 people when the convention is in Europe.

One thing that this FISM will probably present, as do all Asian conventions, are a lot of acts that are not seen in the west, including magicians from China, Korea, and Japan that do incredible work (both close-up and stage).
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Terry » February 14th, 2008, 1:19 pm

I can assure you that going to Kentucky is nothing like going to China.
Richard is correct.

KY - you are free to say and do most anything.
China - the guys in the tanks might not be as agreeable.

KY - you can't get real dog/cat in your Chinese food.
China - most likely is whether requested or not.

KY - you can swim in our lakes/rivers.
China - you need a hazmat suit to take a bath.

KY - you can eat the shrimp.
China - you shouldn't.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 14th, 2008, 4:18 pm

Terry, have you been to China? I doubt it from the cliched statements you've made--all stuff you've heard on American newscasts.

I've been to several different cities in China--I didn't see any tanks. What I saw are a lot of people, just like you and me, who are going to work each day at jobs just like you and me, then going home to their families. Lots of stores and restaurants on the streets. People busy shopping. Pretty much like many of the other cities I've been to.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Roger M. » February 14th, 2008, 7:03 pm

With most countries sporting totalitarian governments, it's not the PEOPLE who live there I have problems with........it's those in power who maintain the iron fist over the people who live there.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby David Scollnik » February 14th, 2008, 8:36 pm

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Terry, have you been to China? I doubt it from the cliched statements you've made--all stuff you've heard on American newscasts.
I've never been to China, but my niece and nephew (both American citizens) have. They enjoyed it enormously. And they were doing missionary work so they were not living it up in the 5 star hotels in Shanghai, etc., but they still loved it.

I hope to attend FISM in China if I can only arrange the time off work.

Speaking of work, many of my colleagues and students are recent immigrants from China. They have great pride in and love for their birth country, and go back for visits as often as they can.

I tend to agree with RK that many of the newscasts we see are somewhat biased and exaggerated or misleading.

Originally posted by Blair M.:
Full Disclosure:
I have issues with countries that practice public execution.
I have issues with countries that execute in public or in private. But give public executions their due, they probably have 100x the deterrent value as do executions in private.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Kent Blackmore » February 14th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Hmmm, isn't politics, other than magic politics, barred on the forum?

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 14th, 2008, 9:01 pm

Yes, it is. It's not the place for discussion on the merits of capital punishment.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 14th, 2008, 11:01 pm

Please can we lay off the geo-politics. This isn't the forum.

My post focuses solely on venue selection - the selection process & communication - all specifically related to the smoothing running of a magic convention.

Lets leave any personal thoughts on countries, policies etc out of it.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby r paul wilson » February 15th, 2008, 12:59 am

I've been watching this discussion with some interest.

Regarding China's government and it's policies, I think these are extremely relevant in this discussion.

It's a magic convention and this is a magic forum. We are all magicians who may or may not attend. The factors that help us decide include the acts who are booked, the facilities on offer and the country that we will be visiting for just over a week.

If that country is a great distance from most of the potential attendees - that's a factor.

If the country is incredibly expensive - that's a factor.

If the country is a third world country, sponsors terrorism, is plagued by disease or is in a state of conflict - these are all factors.

China is not a third world country - it's a major world economy. It's not plagued by disease and, to my knowledge, there are no warzones in, or around Beijing.

The fact is, though, that China is a communist country that is repressing it's own people and people in other countries that it governs.

This fact opens up a huge can of worms for people who might go there to attend a magic convention. One of the biggest problems for the FISM organisers is that the image of China that still resonates in the west is that of a man standing in front of a tank.

Terry's post alludes to many of the cliches that arise in people's minds when thinking of China.

This IS the forum to discuss these issues because this is where we, as magicians, can help each other decide whether or not it is safe, affordable or acceptable to visit a country like China just to attend a FISM.

The post that affected me most was Richard's reply to Terry.

I too am concerned by the actions of a government that represses it's people and I have genuine concerns about visiting Beijing - not least because I am considering bringing my family.

Richard's reply helpde put things in perspective.

So, this is how I am feeling about it at this moment in time, as a direct result of everything we have discussed so far:

I want to go to FISM 2009. Actually I always want to go to FISM because it's such a great event.

I feel angry that the organizers chose China at this stage, despite the feelings of the people who attended FISM 2006. The vote was surely for Granada but the FISM people had their own agenda. No point crying over spilt milk but I'm entitled to be unhappy about being railroaded.

I want to visit China. I went to Hong Kong a few years ago and I loved the city and the people. I'd love to explore China's cuisine, it's history and meet the real people. I'll pass on meeting the government but, equally, I have no interest in meeting George Bush either.

So, despite feeling forced to go to China by the agenda of the FISM president (and his lackies) and despite my natural caution about visiting a communist country, I'm planning to make the trip and find out for myself.

That decision isn't final. Discussions like this one will help to convince me over the next twelve months and so will the upcoming Olympics. If they go smoothly without any tanks or feline related food poisoning then I'm pretty confident our little convention will do just fine.

As for the changes of venue, we do need to watch this closely. In Lisbon the main venue (which housed the dealers, theatres - everything) was a bus or taxi ride from the hotel.

This was not too much of an issue.

In Sweden there were several hotels and the main one was in town, away from the convention. The problem was that the after hours energy just didn't exist because the attendees were scattered. Put everyone in one huge hotel or miss out on one of FISM's strongest events - the hotel sessions.

Richard, I think if people wish to air their concerns about China as a country they should be permitted to do so. So long as it's a healthy, relevant, discussion then it should continue.

P

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 15th, 2008, 8:10 am

There's a reason we don't discuss politics or religion on the Forum. This discussion is no different.
Many of the derogatory things you might say about the government in China can also be said about many other so-called democratic countries around the world. These issues have no business in being discussed here.
If you don't want to go to FISM because it's being held in Beijing, that's fine. Feel free to say it. But don't tell me what the government is doing to its people that you feel helps to validate your judgement--that's a political statement. It has no place here.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Terry » February 15th, 2008, 9:12 am

Terry, have you been to China? I doubt it from the cliched statements you've made--all stuff you've heard on American newscasts.
Richardand everyone else,

Don't get your shorts in a twist. My post was playing off Richard's post about KY and China

I can assure you that going to Kentucky is nothing like going to China.
You can't compare visiting a state to a foreign country. Get real.

What you CAN compare is the open nature that the Louisville IBM/SAM is being handled and the obvious secret shifting happening with China FISM.

Next time I will add multiple emoticons so no one gets backed up.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Bob Farmer » February 15th, 2008, 4:11 pm

Registraions are now being accepted for FISM Havana.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby EdAndres » February 15th, 2008, 4:35 pm

I know lots of magi use animals and such... but,

Link REMOVED.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 15th, 2008, 5:11 pm

That link was exactly what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with FISM, or magic.

I could put up links to sites that show the systematic mistreatment of animals in the US--is that supposed to dissuade magicians from coming to the United States for a magic convention?

Stop it.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby David Scollnik » February 15th, 2008, 6:53 pm

Originally posted by Terry:

What you CAN compare is the open nature that the Louisville IBM/SAM is being handled and the obvious secret shifting happening with China FISM.
Is there _really_ anything obviously shifty going on?

Was the venue altered unilaterally, or did they consult the relevant FISM officials along the way about the venue change? From the first post made in this thread, it _sounds_ as though discussions were held with FISM.

I read just today that a number of the London 2012 Olympics venues are STILL being changed. I would have thought those venues would have been nailed down by now, but evidently they are still being altered. Frankly, I don't know that venue changes for large meetings are really all that uncommon.

I know I once organised a conference myself on a relatively short 12 months notice, because the original venue and conference backer became unavailable and I was asked to take over. In that case we even had to move the host city.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 15th, 2008, 7:45 pm

The upcoming IBM/SAM combined convention also had to move its host city: from New Orleans to Louisville. I didn't hear a lot of squawking about that.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 15th, 2008, 9:31 pm

To recap - the concerns stated are:

A - The initial venue - by their own admission - had problems which were clearly ignored in selecting it in the first place. If the first venue was flawed - why was it selected ?

Or - why were all these 'defects' completely ignored in the original voting process ?

B - Delegates from across the globe were shown the National Grand Theatre as part of the site inspection. Now - the venue is significantly changed with less than 18 months to go ...
there was no communication or consultation regarding this change. FISM stated goal was improved communication / more public role. Instead - this information was very very well hidden and not publicised.

The new venue may well be 100x better ... but on the converse it could be worse. Without information - we have no idea. But what is for certain is that the whole concept of an effective bidding process for a host city is ultimately for naught.

An original venue is shown ( its problems ignored ) but still selected ( again - major problem here ) And now a new venue is decided upon without any wider consultation / comunication. What then is the point of having FISM delegates vote on a host city when so critical an element such as the convention venue is summarily changed. Was another site inspection held ? Is the new venue conducive to a performance environment ?

Your bid document promises x and you deliver y ...

One things is for certain is that whatever problems do arise with the new venue - it will be a very easy reply for the FISM delegates to turn around and say that they didn't approve of the new venue / weren't consulted nor did they even see the new venue & the organisers simply made the change on their own accord.

So in relooking at the bidding process - are we simply chosing a country to host an event ( to serve a wider goal of transformation, internationalisation et al ) without regard to the specifics of venues & organisational details or do these still play a key role ?

The National Theatre appeared to be unsuitable from the start due to the lack of hotels, distances etc. These concerns appeared to be have ignored completely in the actual voting process.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby r paul wilson » February 16th, 2008, 1:03 am

There's a key phrase in the venue change announcement that suggests, at least to me, that this is a good thing.

I can live with the main hotel being a taxi ride from the convention center though I think there should be one main hotel and any others should be walking distance from that hotel.

But in Sweden, the sheer size of the venue meant that FISM 2006 was a sprawling affair. While the convention center itself was huge, the theater was not big enough for all the delegates.

The social events at the convention center were held in what seemed to be an aircraft hangar.

The Chinese organizers have opted to change venue because the current one is too far away from hotels - that sounds like a plus for attendees.

More importantly, they've opted for somewhere more intimate. So long as this doesn't become "cramped" or "crowded" then I think this will make for a more sociable event. In Sweden I was there for four days before bumping into a good friend who had been there all week!

I think the change of venue sounds like a positive step, taken for good reasons.

All of us will get the chance to experience Beijing through the media when the Olympics begin. Hopefully that will dispel our concerns.

As for me, my family and I are already counting on being there.

P

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby John McDonald » February 16th, 2008, 1:12 am

From reading this thread it seems that the reasons for the change of venue are sensible - wanting to keep the convention compact and keep the evening sessions alive :sleep:

It should be up to the FISM organisers to decide the best venue to do this because of the distance in getting there.

The fact that this event will be in an unfamiliar country and culture makes this all the more sensible doesn't it? If a problem is anticiapated surely it should be addressed earlier rather than wait for the moaning to begin sbout bad organisation one day into the meet up?

I am hoping now the convention will be compact... :D
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 16th, 2008, 7:54 am

Craig, you're really pushing here and the questions you keep raising are starting to get annoying.

Please tell me that all of this doesn't have anything to do with FISM actions re The College of Magic.

When we were shown the venue, we were asked about any concerns we had, that is, distance from hotels, etc. All hotels would have been a short distance away by subway or taxi, and the taxis are cheap as dirt. That didn't seem to be an issue considering the grand nature of the venue. It was also stated to us that while they were fairly sure they could get the National Theater, it wasn't 100% certain.

So, this doesn't surprise me as much as it obviously does you, but your posts are over the top. It's not some heinous conspiracy ... really.

At the time we were shown the National Theater, the only other alternate was a much older theater that didn't have sufficient air-conditioning--that's one of the big reasons we all went for the National Theater. However, since then, it appears that another newly-built venue has become available. And perhaps it will actually be better! You don't know that, so perhaps you should stop making assertions until you learn something about the new venue.
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 16th, 2008, 9:56 pm

Hi Richard

I'm posting in my personal capacity.

My concerns - which appear to be shared by others - are fairly well elucidated.

I do not believe it is too much to ask that such changes are better communicated. And in the very least better explained. I am very quick to receive an email regarding buying a DVD but not a simple email is sent out regarding a new venue selection.

It is common knowledge that China was not a popular choice and any elements which affect the organisational capacity of the event concern me. Changes to the venue 15 months before being one of them.

Attending a convention such as FISM costs a small fortune and as such I don't believe it is unreasonable - especially after I have parted with my money after having been promised X - to discover on my own accord that this is no longer the case.

And on further research - the China National Convention Center is slated to only open proper in July 2009 ( http://en.cnccchina.com/ )

So it would appear that FISM will be one of the first to make use of the venue in its capacity as convention centre - along with all the teething problems that normally beset a new venue.

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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 17th, 2008, 8:21 am

One of my links, posted earlier, mentions the July 2009 opening.

Wasn't the hotel next to the Stockholm venue a new facility? I booked before it was built. Had no problems. That's not to say it's not possible that there won't be problems here. If there are, they'll find another venue!
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Re: FISM 2009 Venue Change !

Postby CraigMitchell » February 17th, 2008, 12:12 pm

A new hotel & a new convention centre are two very different things.

From an operational risk point of view one never wants to be the guinea pig event to discover what works & what not besides the possibility of building delays etc.

They most certainly have their work cut out for them and don't envy the organisers. Lets all hope they pull off a great event ...


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