Youtube Takers

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Tarotist
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 15th, 2022, 7:23 pm

I am indeed performing that one, rather than your obscure one. However, I also made another mistake. I did not get 20 million views after all. No----I got nearly 23 million. Not that I am one to boast of course..............

Anyway here it is:

https://www.tiktok.com/@lifescrazy25/vi ... v1&lang=en

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 15th, 2022, 7:42 pm

I think that might be Vernon's trick.
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MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 15th, 2022, 8:32 pm

Possibly so, but I learned it from Rosini's Magical Gems, written by Rufus Steele and published in 1950, I believe it was called "Change in Hand." I also read about a very similar trick (as Mark has alluded to) in one of my Annemann books, which is not close at hand at the moment. Annemann entitled the trick, ""A Card in Hand," and I seem to remember how highly he recommended the trick as far as it garnering great reactions. In my performance of it I just riffle the deck and revolve a double out of the middle -- I find it streamlines the trick and avoids the "pick a card" syndrome.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 15th, 2022, 9:15 pm

OK, Annemann's version is called "A Card in Hand," and was first published in Annemann's Miracles of Card Magic, compiled and published by Max Holden (1948), two years prior to publication of Rosini's Magical Gems.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 15th, 2022, 9:42 pm

Rosini was a student of Vernon's and much of what he published was Vernon's.
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Tarotist
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 15th, 2022, 10:39 pm

I think I have also seen it in one of Bruce Elliot's books. I have never seen Vernon's name associated with the trick although it wouldn't surprise me if it was one of his. Anyway, it is a damn good trick whoever invented it.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 1:09 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Rosini was a student of Vernon's and much of what he published was Vernon's.


Or possibly, in this case, Annemann's.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Brad Henderson » August 16th, 2022, 1:40 pm

If you were interested in magic because of the “challenge “, then you are doing it to please yourself. If you are more concerned about the experience of the audience, then exposure is an unneeded and unnecessary obstacle to their enjoyment. Primarily, because it reinforces the small minded belief that magic is about methods, and suggests that the role of the magician and audience is fundamentally antagonistic.

most people would never think of going to a Broadway musical and spending their entire time tracing the electrical cords that feed the lighting, but they will happily spend their time in the magic show looking for our craft’s equivalent - methods and technique. We taught them this

When we were Young and beginning in magic, the first bar we set for success is “did it fool you?” In setting this bar everything we do in our presentational choices reinforce that unstated value system. The audience picks up on this, and we teach them - by our choices and approach - that when watching magic their role is to be someone whose job is to not get fooled.

I think we would be far better served to wonder not if we fooled them, but how we made them feel. Even though fooling is required for the successful performance of magic, it is the most superficial of the bars, and one most easily fixed by applications of craft. Fooling IS a feeling, but if that’s all we offer we are presenting puzzles and pranks. Not magic.

If we focus instead on how we make them feel, and we teach them it’s those feelings that are important, maybe they will start to sit back and enjoy the show, and not spend all of their time looking at the electrical outlets..

Exposure serves no purpose, and only reinforces the worst values when it comes to the conveying the experience of magic.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 2:24 pm

IMO, there is as much, if not more, of importance in Brad's above comments as there is in any magic book I've ever read.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2022, 3:15 pm

++ with MagicbyAlfred about these words:
When we were Young and beginning in magic, the first bar we set for success is “did it fool you?” In setting this bar everything we do in our presentational choices reinforce that unstated value system. The audience picks up on this, and we teach them - by our choices and approach - that when watching magic their role is to be someone whose job is to not get fooled.

What if we had a better way to test whether something was deceptive than just asking the audience to humiliate themselves?
We could as well design our routines so that the next step takes advantage of that deception and any hesitation from the audience indicates they were not taken in by the trickery.

What do you think?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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DennisLisi
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 16th, 2022, 5:32 pm

The "challenge" to me, is not to fool the audience, but to convince everyone that I actually did what I apparently did.

And that requires acting. Fooling is just a matter of performing a good trick. Convincing is about conveying sincerity.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 16th, 2022, 8:01 pm

I detest that word "fool". It is so demeaning. You are not there to "fool" people. You are there to baffle them. Or mystify them. Or even use that silly phrase "create wonder". The only fool is the magician who uses the word. Your audience is not a "fool". It really is an awful word.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby I.M. Magician » August 16th, 2022, 8:36 pm

Tarotist wrote:I detest that word "fool". It is so demeaning. You are not there to "fool" people. You are there to baffle them. Or mystify them. Or even use that silly phrase "create wonder". The only fool is the magician who uses the word. Your audience is not a "fool". It really is an awful word.


I mostly agree with you. First, magicians are not calling their spectators fools. The word fool is being used interchangeably with the other more pleasant sounding words such as mystify. Or, at least, I hope that is what magicians are doing with that word.

By the way, the word baffle is closer in meaning to fool than mystify is in a literal sense.

In essence, you are telling your audience that you intend to perform some feats of magic that they will not be able to determine how it was accomplished. So…mystify actually has a bit of a different meaning. Mystify is more of a state of mind or feeling. Fool is a lack of ability for the spectator to know something. Not a feeling but a cognitive shortcoming so to speak. In that way, the word fool is not very pleasant.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 9:14 pm

I'm kinda partial to astound, astonish, blow their minds.

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DennisLisi
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 17th, 2022, 5:21 am

Fascinating point here. And one that I have always been a bit troubled by.

As an audience member (which we all are from time to time), I never liked magicians who perform a trick with a big grin on their faces, as if it were a joke. They are like amateur comedians, who can't keep a straight face.

That's why I believe that theatrical training is helpful. You're either the self-amused "Life of the Party", or the self-disciplined performer who lets the audience be the judge of whether the act is funny, or amazing--or whatever.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 8:37 am

I have never been a fan of theatrical training even for stage work. However, that is another debate entirely. You certainly don't need it for close up work especially impromptu performances. However, I certainly believe a magician should be an actor------just not a trained one. What is just as important if not even more so, is something which never seems to be mentioned or considered. He should also be a good psychologist. Not a trained one but a natural one! You have to know how people's minds work if you are going to amaze and entertain them.

As for grinning I still remember a famous Scandinavian magicician by the name of Toreno saying, "I only smile when the audience applauds. That is their reward for applauding!"

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DennisLisi
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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 17th, 2022, 9:09 am

Tarotist wrote:I have never been a fan of theatrical training even for stage work. However, that is another debate entirely. You certainly don't need it for close up work especially impromptu performances. However, I certainly believe a magician should be an actor------just not a trained one. What is just as important if not even more so, is something which never seems to be mentioned or considered. He should also be a good psychologist. Not a trained one but a natural one! You have to know how people's minds work if you are going to amaze and entertain them.

As for grinning I still remember a famous Scandinavian magicician by the name of Toreno saying, "I only smile when the audience applauds. That is their reward for applauding!"


I personally share your disdain for formal training, Mark. But it may help those who are clueless, and don't have a natural gift for acting. It may at least teach them how to see themselves objectively, and discover what they are doing wrong. Or rather how they may better approach an audience.

In some cases, laughing along with your own jokes (or tricks) may ingratiate you to the crowd, but when it comes to Magic, it's best to be credible in your presentation.

Otherwise, you do as much a disservice to The Art as an exposer on YouTube.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 17th, 2022, 11:17 am

Tarotist wrote: He should also be a good psychologist. Not a trained one but a natural one! You have to know how people's minds work if you are going to amaze and entertain them.


Super important - far more so than even advanced sleight of hand skills. But it is the kind of psychology that can only be learned from experience, not even by earning a PhD in psychology. Laymen are our best teachers.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

Oh well, if it helps the 90% of magicians who are clueless then I suppose it has to be considered. Mind you, if they are clueless about magic they will probably be clueless about acting too! Still, I suppose it will give them something to do with their time.

With regard to constant smiling this reminds me of a local Toronto performer. I am far more tactful than I used to be so I won't name the party in question. He once asked me to watch his act and give him some constructive criticism which was a very silly thing for him to do. I tend not to comment on other people's work unless they ask me because it really is none of my business how bad they are. Of course I do get tempted on occasion if they are really awful but I try not to do it no matter how much I cringe inside. However, if they ask me to do it that is another story. I do know of a magician who refuses to give advice or criticism until the person asks three times on separate occasions so he knows they are really serious. Alas with me only once will suffice.

Anyway this particular chap has an awful habit of a permanent fake smile on stage. When I say "permanent" it really looks stuck on and I wish to God he would frown or look miserable once in a while. I am able to look miserable constantly on and off stage so I don't know why he can't.
He also tends to shout on stage as if he is giving a speech on Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, London. Worst of all he uses profanity on stage which I consider the ultimate sin. I have always said the very SECOND a magician swears on stage he is a bad magician.

Anyway, I advised him, "Don't smile, don't shout and don't swear!" He was mortally offended over the matter and alas it took a hit to his sensitive ego. I don't think he has ever forgiven me. Since most magicians in Toronto are bloody awful I have now decided to keep my opinions to myself as a result of this.

However, it is indeed a mistake to be smiling all the time particularly if it is a false smile that you might learn in acting school for all I know. As for the other matter you mention the only person I have seen who can get away with laughing at his own jokes was the late Tommy Cooper. However he was a master showman and of course master showmen are as rare as good magicians on the Magic Cafe.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 11:34 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:
Tarotist wrote: He should also be a good psychologist. Not a trained one but a natural one! You have to know how people's minds work if you are going to amaze and entertain them.


Super important - far more so than even advanced sleight of hand skills. But it is the kind of psychology that can only be learned from experience, not even by earning a PhD in psychology. Laymen are our best teachers.


Yes. I actually meant to mention it has to be learned by experience but I forgot to include that in my comment. Thank you for mentioning it. It is hardly ever mentioned it but I am really glad I figured it out when I was young. I read the importance of it in a book somewhere but alas I have forgotten which book it was. I never forgot the concept though of how important it really was.

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Re: Youtube Takers

Postby DennisLisi » August 17th, 2022, 11:50 am

Tarotist wrote:
However, it is indeed a mistake to be smiling all the time particularly if it is a false smile that you might learn in acting school for all I know. As for the other matter you mention the only person I have seen who can get away with laughing at his own jokes was the late Tommy Cooper. However he was a master showman and of course master showmen are as rare as good magicians on the Magic Cafe.


Yes I was actually thinking of Tommy Cooper as an exception to my general rule. I think that performers who satirise bad magicians are quite refreshing. But if you are a serious magician, you should not belittle the tricks by "winking and nodding" as if they were just silly nonsense that you bought in a shop.


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