Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

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Jon Pendragon
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Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Jon Pendragon » June 18th, 2021, 1:44 pm

The now infamous video of Vanilla Ice trying to justify stealing from Queen is a perfect portrayal of magicians trying to explain why they're not ripping off another magician's material. Deeper dive into the story shows examples of ludicrous justifications which I and other magicians known for creative and original work have had to endure. In short, I've heard it all before.

Ted M
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Ted M » June 18th, 2021, 10:32 pm

Of the two most prominent Jonathans here, I'm not sure which one writes more "read my mind" posts...

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 18th, 2021, 11:23 pm

@Jon, this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-1_9-z9rbY ? Don't let the copyists, or those who promote or publish them, get you down.

Vanilla Ice... oh boy :( claiming invention was not such a good idea. He lost me on SNL with "word to your mother" in rhinestones on his jacket.

Context in pop music: Nick Lowe's item "I Love the Sound of Breaking Glass" was interesting. The Verve's "Bitter Sweet Symphony" got serious pushback from the other side of the copyright fence. Want to talk about Professor Longhair's "Oh Hey Baby" or how DeLaSoul's trumpets sounded on someone else's dancefloor?

Chris Aguilar
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Chris Aguilar » June 19th, 2021, 7:46 am

Vanilla who?

Bill Mullins
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Bill Mullins » June 19th, 2021, 1:17 pm


Jon Pendragon
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Jon Pendragon » June 19th, 2021, 6:02 pm

In 1995 the IBM held their convention in Salt Lake City. In the dealers someone was selling a rip-off Origami. As soon as I entered the room, a group of concerned looking magicians came up to me and told me about the prop. When I got to the booth, others quickly came up to see what would happen. I confronted the dealer and told him he had no right to build the prop and that I was actually performing the illusion in the Gala. What followed was a defenses through word play. He wanted to know what was Jim's creation, "The mirror, he didn't invent mirrors." He reduced the prop to nuts and bolts and claimed that he had the right to use the same material, cloth, nuts and bolts and mirror because they existed before. I told him that if he ever went Paris and saw the Mona Lisa, he would see nothing if he went right up and stuck his nose against the glass that protects painting. To appreciate the work you had to stand back to admire the illusion the painting presents, meaning the awe of the masterpiece. He was reducing art to fragments of material that meant nothing on their own. He hadn't even tried to make the prop look different because his selling point was the desire for the pricy illusion everyone recognized. His "cheaper" price was predicated on the fact that everyone knew what one of John Gaughan's Origami illusions sold for. It was perverse, he was borrowing on Jim's genius and John's craft but refused to admit the authorship. I went to the organizers and told them that I would rather go home then give this man credence by remaining at the convention. The prop was removed from floor.

TerryTerrell
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby TerryTerrell » June 22nd, 2021, 11:45 am

Jon Pendragon wrote:In 1995 the IBM held their convention in Salt Lake City. In the dealers someone was selling a rip-off Origami. As soon as I entered the room, a group of concerned looking magicians came up to me and told me about the prop. When I got to the booth, others quickly came up to see what would happen. I confronted the dealer and told him he had no right to build the prop and that I was actually performing the illusion in the Gala. What followed was a defenses through word play. He wanted to know what was Jim's creation, "The mirror, he didn't invent mirrors." He reduced the prop to nuts and bolts and claimed that he had the right to use the same material, cloth, nuts and bolts and mirror because they existed before. I told him that if he ever went Paris and saw the Mona Lisa, he would see nothing if he went right up and stuck his nose against the glass that protects painting. To appreciate the work you had to stand back to admire the illusion the painting presents, meaning the awe of the masterpiece. He was reducing art to fragments of material that meant nothing on their own. He hadn't even tried to make the prop look different because his selling point was the desire for the pricy illusion everyone recognized. His "cheaper" price was predicated on the fact that everyone knew what one of John Gaughan's Origami illusions sold for. It was perverse, he was borrowing on Jim's genius and John's craft but refused to admit the authorship. I went to the organizers and told them that I would rather go home then give this man credence by remaining at the convention. The prop was removed from floor.


I was working with Harry Allen at Daytona booth when this happened. I remember how pissed you were. You told us the guy would most likely take it up to his room and continue selling it from there. IBM had no way to stop it outside of dealer's room.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Bob Farmer » June 22nd, 2021, 12:34 pm

Breaking down the individual elements of a trick, and claiming that since they were all known beforehand, nothing new had been created is a stupid argument. It is the new combination of elements, the whole being bigger than the sum of its parts, that matters.

Years ago, I submitted a trick to an IBM creativity contest. I got a note back from the "learned" judges that my trick would have won but since it was made up of known elements it was not "new." Ironically, one of the judges wrote and asked permission to use the trick. The judges were simply not qualified to decide. No one before me had ever combined the elements involved and the resultant trick was a new effect. Since that time, I have never published the trick and I've used it to fool a lot of magicians who though they may have been familiar with the individual elements, had no idea of that those elements had a completely different effect when used in a new combination.

Robert77
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby Robert77 » June 22nd, 2021, 1:01 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Breaking down the individual elements of a trick, and claiming that since they were all known beforehand, nothing new had been created is a stupid argument. It is the new combination of elements, the whole being bigger than the sum of its parts, that matters.


"Hey I'm just using existing elements from the Periodic Table to make this substance so there's no need for me to obey patents."

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 22nd, 2021, 2:41 pm

Ha ha! Or, it's like saying that a song doesn't get copyright protection and it's fine for anyone to pirate it since it just uses notes from the scales and chords (and even words) that have all been used before. So, nothing new.

jason156
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby jason156 » June 22nd, 2021, 7:32 pm

TerryTerrell wrote:
Jon Pendragon wrote:In 1995 the IBM held their convention in Salt Lake City. In the dealers someone was selling a rip-off Origami.


I was working with Harry Allen at Daytona booth when this happened. I remember how pissed you were. You told us the guy would most likely take it up to his room and continue selling it from there. IBM had no way to stop it outside of dealer's room.



And yet you have no problem with Harry Allen selling a rip-off of Steve Dusheck's effect Wunderbar? The truth of the matter is, that almost all dealers sell effects that are rip-offs, some are just more blatant about it than others.

TerryTerrell
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Re: Vanilla Ice and magician who steal material

Postby TerryTerrell » July 25th, 2021, 7:40 am

jason156 wrote:
TerryTerrell wrote:
Jon Pendragon wrote:In 1995 the IBM held their convention in Salt Lake City. In the dealers someone was selling a rip-off Origami.


I was working with Harry Allen at Daytona booth when this happened. I remember how pissed you were. You told us the guy would most likely take it up to his room and continue selling it from there. IBM had no way to stop it outside of dealer's room.



And yet you have no problem with Harry Allen selling a rip-off of Steve Dusheck's effect Wunderbar? The truth of the matter is, that almost all dealers sell effects that are rip-offs, some are just more blatant about it than others.



Jason - My responsibility was in the book section which is what I know about.

Jon was defending his friend and someone he did business with. If you have an issue with a dealer - take it up with them and don't hide behind a keyboard on an online forum.


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