New coin move?

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 8:12 pm

I've come up with a coin move that is important and I want to know how original it is. Richard, can you or anyone else recommend someone with historical knowledge that could advise me? Thank you all!

Yehuda
Posts: 25
Joined: March 9th, 2020, 1:28 pm

Re: New coin move?

Postby Yehuda » July 29th, 2020, 8:19 pm

Curtis Kam knows what's up and he drops by here often enough.

Yehuda

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 8:25 pm

Curtis is a great reference. But to give more detail I should mention that this is a "move" for small objects in general including coins. I guess I need quite a broad historian.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 8:57 pm

I'm playing with this and it is a major vanish / production that I think everyone will use. It's so basic but I've never seen it.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25734
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 29th, 2020, 9:03 pm

John, send me a video at moobooks@verzion.net. I won't share it.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 9:05 pm

Thanks Richard, I was hoping for your help. I'll email you privately.

Tom Gilbert
Posts: 843
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: NH
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Tom Gilbert » July 29th, 2020, 9:23 pm

David Roth is very well studied in moves, old and new.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 9:35 pm

Thanks Tom. Yes David Roth is a master. He and I have a funny story or two but that's another topic.

JFox
Posts: 193
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Hollywood, Ca. USA

Re: New coin move?

Postby JFox » July 29th, 2020, 11:41 pm

There once was a time, where the statement: "I need quite a broad historian"....would garner many humorous responses here - of female candidates for the job.

Sometimes, I miss those days.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 29th, 2020, 11:56 pm

I absolutely love the ladies but this is a serious move for all magicians. It is an astounding and practical vanish of a small object that I guarantee you will use. Is it new? I just don't know but I've never seen it before. Please forgive me if it's already known as I don't want to make a fool of myself!

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 1075
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: New coin move?

Postby Brad Jeffers » July 30th, 2020, 2:34 am

Just don't show it to Penn & Teller! ;)

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 30th, 2020, 7:09 pm

Here's a very short unlisted YouTube video showing the vanish, which I am calling the "Handy Vanish." So far Jamy Swiss and Tim Trono have told me that Slydini's "Sliding Vanish" is similar but done seated instead of standing. I'm hoping this is new and useful for vanishing small objects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFB1f9NWT6I

Yehuda
Posts: 25
Joined: March 9th, 2020, 1:28 pm

Re: New coin move?

Postby Yehuda » July 30th, 2020, 7:51 pm

Looks good and practical. It does seem to be the scoop-lapping technique, just done standing and using the hand instead of the lap.

Funny, cuz just a couple days ago I was playing with a similar thing with cards. Ditching the bottom card(s) of a packet when it is brought near the edge of the table and catching it in the other hand.

Yehuda

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25734
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 30th, 2020, 8:21 pm

I doubt it's new, John. I can only speak for myself, but as soon as I learned that type of vanish, within 10 minutes I was catching the coin with my other hand under the table.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Curtis Kam
Posts: 561
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Waikiki
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Curtis Kam » July 30th, 2020, 8:59 pm

There’s a moment in Slydini’s one coin routine where you are doing almost that. The only difference is that Slydini displayed the coin near the lapel of his coat, and then dropped it as he apparently brought it to the table.

Also, this sort of thing is almost inevitable when performing the coins through table standing. I know I use it in the routine I published on one of the Palms of Steel discs. I suspect it also appears in one of Michael Rubinstein’s routines, as well. In those applications, however, the catching hand is overtly under the table, unlike here.

If we consider other objects, the actions may seem familiar because they are about the same as those used when stealing a glass from under a paper cover. See especially Bob Read’s Transpo Tumbler and the $100 Glass through Table, both of which are done standing.

That’s all I got.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 30th, 2020, 11:46 pm

Thanks guys, appreciate your input. I'd like to see a published version. Curtis, is there any way you could scan that portion in your routine for me? Thanks.

User avatar
Tom Stone
Posts: 1387
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Tom Stone » July 31st, 2020, 3:57 pm

JohnKennedy wrote:Here's a very short unlisted YouTube video showing the vanish, which I am calling the "Handy Vanish."

I've also experimented with using the hand as a servante, but in combination with a kind of reversed "Imp pass".
I showed this to some people 8 years ago, and I believe they said I wasn't first. :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq7lPafcRlo

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8384
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 31st, 2020, 4:32 pm

From the wrist up to the shoulder it's tough not to flinch when catching something as a secret action.
Under cover of an open action that's larger, say Dan Sylvester's inertial transfer (Sylvester Pitch) or Ramsay's mid-air vanish... well it's still a challenge. :)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 31st, 2020, 5:03 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:From the wrist up to the shoulder it's tough not to flinch when catching something as a secret action.
Under cover of an open action that's larger, say Dan Sylvester's inertial transfer (Sylvester Pitch) or Ramsay's mid-air vanish... well it's still a challenge. :)


Ah yes, the flinch! I have found that by keeping my hand directly below the coin (or object) so that it drops straight down then the need to flinch is minimized. As opposed to holding my hand back against my body and "shooting" the coin into my hand; that creates more of a flinch to make sure I catch the coin. But even that technique can work with practice as your body is a "wall" to keep the coin from shooting too far.

Also moving my hand forward after I "pick up" the coin directs attention to that hand instead of my other hand / arm.

I've been fooling people badly with this and even fooled my wife, which is nearly an impossibility! The beauty is that my hand is an instant servante that is padded to eliminate noise and gives me instant retrieval of the object to produce as I please.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1638
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: New coin move?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 31st, 2020, 5:29 pm

John, it looks really great! The one suggestion I would have that may make it even more deceptive than it already is, is not to move the left hand at all until you show the vanish. When I watched it from the "audience view," my eye was drawn to the bit of a twisting motion the left hand/arm made after the catch, and as it turned palm-down. But even before the left hand/arm twisted, I could not see the coin in your hand (the "servante"), leading me to believe that there is no need to move the left hand at all until after you show the vanish in the right hand. The bringing of the right hand forward just before opening it to show the vanish, combined with the surprise of the vanish, would provide all the cover/misdirection you could ever want if you then dropped the left hand casually to the side and twisting the hand/arm in the process. Just one person's humble opinion. But if you are fooling people badly, as is, including your wife, maybe you don't need to do what I'm suggesting.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 31st, 2020, 7:10 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:John, it looks really great! The one suggestion I would have that may make it even more deceptive than it already is, is not to move the left hand at all until you show the vanish. When I watched it from the "audience view," my eye was drawn to the bit of a twisting motion the left hand/arm made after the catch, and as it turned palm-down. But even before the left hand/arm twisted, I could not see the coin in your hand (the "servante"), leading me to believe that there is no need to move the left hand at all until after you show the vanish in the right hand. The bringing of the right hand forward just before opening it to show the vanish, combined with the surprise of the vanish, would provide all the cover/misdirection you could ever want if you then dropped the left hand casually to the side and twisting the hand/arm in the process. Just one person's humble opinion. But if you are fooling people badly, as is, including your wife, maybe you don't need to do what I'm suggesting.

Very good observation and you are correct. In most cases there's no need to move the arm until after the vanish.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » July 31st, 2020, 7:36 pm

In other applications such as a translocation you can bring the left hand into play before you show the right hand empty. For example bringing your left arm up with your hand in a fist while your right hand is also in a fist, then opening your hands and showing that the coin has traveled across. It's a very versatile move.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1638
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: New coin move?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 31st, 2020, 8:02 pm

JohnKennedy wrote:In other applications such as a translocation you can bring the left hand into play before you show the right hand empty. For example bringing your left arm up with your hand in a fist while your right hand is also in a fist, then opening your hands and showing that the coin has traveled across. It's a very versatile move.


Yes, absolutely. And since I often wear cargo pants (featuring pockets at mid-thigh level), a complete vanish is pretty easy to accomplish - from "servante" to "servante," as it were.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 2:42 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I doubt it's new, John. I can only speak for myself, but as soon as I learned that type of vanish, within 10 minutes I was catching the coin with my other hand under the table.

All well and good Richard, but what I'm looking for is a copy or link to published material. I'm sure you can appreciate that. I await it but haven't yet seen it. I have "published" my version by posting it with a video have I not?

If someone can send a link or copy in this thread please do so as I have asked privately but not yet received anything comparable.

David Ben
Posts: 231
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby David Ben » August 1st, 2020, 9:12 am

I suggest you check out Ross Bertram's "B.U.D." move in Bertram on Sleight of Hand. It uses the simple 'drop' concept of a coin, and other objects, from one hand directly into the other hand positioned, as one might say, as a servante. It is done mid-air, that is, without a table as cover, and is, in my opinion superior, given the grace and casualness of the handling. (You could easily do Ross' while standing behind a table, or sitting behind a table. It makes no difference.) Ross may have been inspired by the work of Silent Mora and, of course, Vernon, who also used to drop one item into the hand below to vanish a billiard ball or other object. Ross's is different, and more akin to yours, however, because the object literally drops into an outstretched, basically palm up hand, with the hand servicing as a servant. Ross choreopgraphed the opening of the hand as the servante as part of an open gesture rather than hiding it below a table top. Ross's technique is based on timing, but is extraordinary deceptive. The openness of it contributes to it greatly.

Ross also used various "drops" directly into pant pockets - he called them the "Texas Topit" and they are described in the same book.

Perhaps one of the most ingenious handlings ever devised related to sweeping a coin off the table while standing up, albeit not to vanish an object, but to pass it through the table, is Gaetan Bloom's "Buttons Through the Table", a typically brilliant and unique approach by Gaetan.

So, as Richard suggests, I do not believe the concept is particularly novel, that is secretly dropping an object from one hand into the other hand open as a servante. How you get into it, and the use of the table as a cover may be, but with all due respect, I don't see it as an improvement.

Tastes, however, differ.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 11:22 am

Thanks for contributing David! I am not calling the "Handy Vanish" an improvement over anything. It's a variation that I believe is useful as it will lead to new handlings and routines. As you know, 99.9% of new ideas are a variation of something else.

David Ben
Posts: 231
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby David Ben » August 1st, 2020, 11:41 am

Great.

JustinM
Posts: 90
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 9:17 pm
Favorite Magician: Mike and 40.... The rest are dead!

Re: New coin move?

Postby JustinM » August 1st, 2020, 11:44 am

I read a story of slydini using his hands as a servante when he was performing for someone while standing... A sequence of vanishes and reproductions...

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 11:50 am

David Ben wrote:Great.

I'm not sure what that means David but I want to assure you that I sincerely do appreciate your input. I hope it didn't come off as sarcasm.

David Ben
Posts: 231
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby David Ben » August 1st, 2020, 1:21 pm

No, no, not at all.

“Great” meant I agree with you. What may come as a surprise to some Forum readers, my private correspondence tends to be very short - only a few words if that. So I wanted to acknowledge your comment with appreciation, but reverted to my normal mode.

Sorry about that.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 1:28 pm

David Ben wrote:No, no, not at all.

“Great” meant I agree with you. What may come as a surprise to some Forum readers, my private correspondence tends to be very short - only a few words if that. So I wanted to acknowledge your comment with appreciation, but reverted to my normal mode.

Sorry about that.

:D :D :D

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1638
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: New coin move?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 1st, 2020, 2:23 pm

I could be missing something here, but no one has yet cited a single publication containing the lovely vanish John has come up with. I don't even think John needs to consider it a "variation" on the vanishes Ross Bertram or Vernon used, but rather, an original vanish, in its own right, given that Bertram's and Vernon's did not involve the scooping of a coin (or other object) from a table. Further, while comparisons have been made to prior vanishes where the coin was apparently scooped off the table, those are all performed seated, and primarily it is the lap that is the servante.

Although Richard came up with, or independently may have devised a variation of that vanish where the hand is used as the servante, instead of the lap (good idea, since things can fly off the lap), that is still done seated at a table, as opposed to standing, like John's, and even then, the vanish Richard came up with is apparently not published (yet, anyway). At least at this point, John appears to be the first and only one to create and publish the vanish he demonstrates in the video.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25734
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 1st, 2020, 3:36 pm

It's not an original move. Many people have had the idea to catch the falling coin. Did any of us feel a pressing need to publish something so obvious? No.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 3:40 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:It's not an original move. Many people have had the idea to catch the falling coin. Did any of us feel a pressing need to publish something so obvious? No.

That's a bit insulting Richard. You're saying there's no value because it's too obvious and therefore has never been published? In my case it is new for me and is allowing me to create new handlings and routines. Maybe I'm just a dummy.

If it's so obvious then I would expect to see numerous routines using it. I'm not seeing them. Looks like I've hit a nerve by discovering something so basic. These things happen.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25734
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 1st, 2020, 4:46 pm

You did not hit a nerve, John. It's just not a new technique.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 1st, 2020, 4:57 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:You did not hit a nerve, John. It's just not a new technique.

What publication that you know of has the most similar handling? I've consulted many well known magicians and so far they agree that it is different and worthwhile.

Michael Rubinstein
Posts: 9
Joined: June 28th, 2019, 2:41 pm
Favorite Magician: Michael Rubinstein

Re: New coin move?

Postby Michael Rubinstein » August 1st, 2020, 9:34 pm

Hi John, just came across your post. In Rubinstein Coin Magic, in my Stand Up Coins Through Table (page 176) I use something similar for the passage of the fourth coin. I keep my right hand under the table, ready to catch the coin. I bring the coin back to the edge using the heel of my left hand. I didn't think that using my hand as a servante was really new, but it was a solution to get a stand up lapping move. Hope that helps.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 2nd, 2020, 12:37 am

Hi Michael. Thanks for explaining the 4th coin phase, I think I can picture what you're doing. I have also been sent material from other magicians that make use of the hand under a table for certain sequences. All of it is good precedence and I appreciate your input.

MitchSchneiter1
Posts: 5
Joined: August 1st, 2020, 6:46 pm
Favorite Magician: Tom Mullica

Re: New coin move?

Postby MitchSchneiter1 » August 2nd, 2020, 3:23 pm

Hi Mr. Kennedy. Here's another reference for you: Using the Hand as a Servante by Victor Trabucco on page 110, Fork Full of Appetizers book 2.

JohnKennedy
Posts: 65
Joined: August 25th, 2008, 7:47 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Contact:

Re: New coin move?

Postby JohnKennedy » August 2nd, 2020, 6:11 pm

Mitch, is there any way you can scan the page(s) for me? I have already seen routines where different magicians (Slydini, Bob Read, etc.) use their hand as a servante for part of a routine but I have not yet seen the "Handy Vanish" handling in print.

Thanks for your help Mitch.


Return to “Buzz”