question about Page-Kourcy card pass

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MarcillaAitor
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question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MarcillaAitor » January 18th, 2023, 1:18 pm

Hi i have see (read) there are two autors about a this optical pass, in card magic you turn the half pack and then the complet deck with 2 separed halfs in step , one face down one face up, and finaly turn the top one and you have made a pass. Was invention of Patrick Page or Ken de Kourcy?
regarts

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MarcillaAitor » January 21st, 2023, 10:27 pm

ken de Kourcy ref apear in Magigram 1983

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MarcillaAitor » January 21st, 2023, 10:43 pm

ken de Courcy

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 22nd, 2023, 3:37 am

Good luck reading all of 1983!

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 22nd, 2023, 3:59 am

I didn't know this technique but you have to admit that it's ingenious

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 22nd, 2023, 4:03 am

On second thought, it's a variation of The Revolving Pass described by Blackstone in 1932.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 22nd, 2023, 8:04 pm

This sounds a bit like the Roly Poly Pass that had something to do with Blackstone. I used to do it when I was a beginner in card magic. Come to think of it there is a variation on it in the Paul Le Paul book on card magic.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 22nd, 2023, 8:44 pm

It is none of those things. The deck is cut and half outjogged, then the whole works is turned over.
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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 23rd, 2023, 4:24 am

Excerpt From 1932:

The procedure requires four movements. Each half of the pack, in turn, does a complete revolution. The upshot is that the lower heap is on top of the upper heap. The “pass” has been accomplished.

And from 1983:

The procedure requires three movements. Only The upper half of the pack does a complete revolution. The upshot is that the lower heap is on top of the upper heap. The “pass” has been accomplished.

You are right, it's not exactly the same thing but I think it was inspired by...

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Joe Lyons » January 23rd, 2023, 9:09 am

I believe Marcilla is referring to Ken De Courcy's "Cutting Middle to Top", Magicgram September 1983 p. 22.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 23rd, 2023, 9:59 am

Exactly.

You find it. Bravo! Mr. Lyons

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 23rd, 2023, 1:46 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:Excerpt From 1932:

The procedure requires four movements. Each half of the pack, in turn, does a complete revolution. The upshot is that the lower heap is on top of the upper heap. The “pass” has been accomplished.

And from 1983:

The procedure requires three movements. Only The upper half of the pack does a complete revolution. The upshot is that the lower heap is on top of the upper heap. The “pass” has been accomplished.

You are right, it's not exactly the same thing but I think it was inspired by...


That DEFINITELY sounds just like the Roly-Poly Pass!

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 23rd, 2023, 2:02 pm

Thanks Tarotist.

The Roly Poly Pass was described in How To Do Card Tricks and Entertain People by Harry Baron, published in 1960 (page 30).

Unfortunatly, I haven't this book. I can't check if it's exactly the same sleight.

If someone can do it, thank in advance.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 23rd, 2023, 3:01 pm

You know, I really cannot remember where I learned it. I thought it was in the Blackstone book of card tricks but now I am not even sure if he wrote a book on card tricks! I do remember decades ago owning the Harry Baron book but I have no idea what happened to it. Maybe I did learn the move there. There is something similar in the Paul Le Paul card book on page 96 called "A Fancy Control" which is quite similar but again not exactly the same thing. Three packets of cards are involved in the Paul Le Paul method whereas only two in the Roly Poly version.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Joe Lyons » January 23rd, 2023, 3:27 pm

I have a copy of Blackstone's Modern Card Tricks, which I'm sure was ghost written by Walter Gibson, that has the revolving pass described by Philippe.

I have a couple of Harry Baron books, but not How To Do Card Tricks and Entertain People.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 23rd, 2023, 3:30 pm

Tarotist wrote: You know, I really cannot remember where I learned it. I thought it was in the Blackstone book of card tricks but now I am not even sure if he wrote a book on card tricks!


Mark's memory is better than he may have thought. The move is definitely in Blackstone's Tricks Anyone Can Do, written by Harry Blackstone, himself, with a foreword by Walter Gibson (Kensington Publishing Corp). I owned this fine book for years, and I learned the move, which is clever, deceptive, but easy to learn. I can't recall what Blackstone called it. I later gave the book to my nephew, a budding young magician at the time. The book is a collection of 200 of Blackstone's favorite close-up tricks and sleights, not all cards, but a substantial portion of the book is dedicated to card magic.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 23rd, 2023, 5:49 pm

It has just dawned on me that I do have the Blackstone book somewhere. It was indeed not solely card tricks. I shall seek it out and find it. I wonder if it is called the Roly Poly pass there. I must have gotten that title somewhere. I do know the book has an excellent Chinese Ring routine in it. Here is a performer doing it. Alas I don't think he will be doing it again for a very, very long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS78iI6cwh0

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby EdwinCorrie » January 23rd, 2023, 6:13 pm

The Blackstone book is online here (two different links):

https://www.marianotomatis.it/?page=biblioteca&code=BLA1941

The Revolving Pass is on page 13.

The Roly Poly Pass is in Harry Baron's "Card Tricks for Beginners" (https://magicref.net/magicbooks/books/baronharrycardtricksforbeginners.htm) and probably elsewhere too, and is a bit different. Harry Baron says he was shown the move by "a very clever card manipulator" by the name of Ross Chandaue. It's simpler than the Revolving Pass, and sounds more like the one described by the original poster. Le Paul's Fancy Control is different again, though also related.

I have a lot of old Magigrams in boxes somewhere but would have to dig them out to check the Ken de Courcy version (September 1983).

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 23rd, 2023, 7:07 pm

I have met Ross Chandaue. He was actually a blind magician although he was sighted when I met him. He was working with Jon Tremaine in Gamages department store. Oddly enough I think they were selling svengalis!

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby PressureFan » January 23rd, 2023, 7:30 pm

Thanks for the link to Blackstone's Modern Card Tricks and Secrets of Magic. I have it somewhere but it’s buried.
On page 14, it should read; “The left thumb now gives the bottom portion a flip…”

I’ve seen this somewhere years ago as a flourishy cut. You follow through, flipping the deck back over onto the left.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 23rd, 2023, 7:58 pm

Tarotist wrote:It has just dawned on me that I do have the Blackstone book somewhere. It was indeed not solely card tricks. I shall seek it out and find it. I wonder if it is called the Roly Poly pass there.


Edwin is right. Blackstone called it the "Revolving Pass." When I read his post it jogged my memory. I may have to pick up another copy of the book. I've seen them offered in the $5.00'ish range online.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Joe Lyons » January 23rd, 2023, 8:00 pm


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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 23rd, 2023, 8:45 pm

It has just dawned on me after viewing Edwin's link that I only have half the contents of the book that he posted. No card trick section--only the general magic section. It was obviously made into two separate books at some point. Still I must have had the card section at some point otherwise there was no way I would have remembered the name Blackstone connected with this move. Of course maybe Harry Baron mentioned Blackstone in his book---I have no idea.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Edwin Corrie » January 24th, 2023, 5:30 am

The Blackstone book seems to have been published in various editions and combinations. He's not mentioned in "Card Tricks for Beginners" - the only credit is Ross Chandaue. But there's a bit of overlap between some of the Harry Baron books too (https://magicref.net/magicbooks/ lists a few others as well), so maybe it's in more than one.

There's also a simple force of that looks a bit like this version of the pass. With the force card on top you riffle down the pack till the spectator says stop, then you flip over the top half so it does a somersault and lands face down in the right hand, and you offer them the top card.

Thanks to MarcillaAitor for bringing up the topic - it's proving to be very interesting.

And as per the original question, does anyone know where Pat Page fits into all this?

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 24th, 2023, 8:40 am

I wonder too!

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 24th, 2023, 12:26 pm

I get Card Tricks for beginners.

The Roly Poly pass is not exactly as De Courcy Method.

The difference lies in the fact that De Courcy cut at the break, have the two halves face to face with the upper half outjogged, then he turns the entire deck and turn face up the upper half whereas in the Baron's description, you simply cut at the break, turn the lower half face up then the upper half on it.

In either case, the chosen card ends on the bottom of the deck face up.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Tarotist » January 24th, 2023, 3:11 pm

When I do it the card comes on the top of the pack rather than the bottom! I suppose it depends whether you hold the break above or below the selected card!

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Steve Hook » January 24th, 2023, 3:34 pm

A variation for the curious completist: See "Spooner's Deceptive Roll-Cut", page 39, WONDERFUL ROUTINES OF MAGIC by Ellison Poland.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby EdwinCorrie » January 24th, 2023, 5:37 pm

So I managed to find my old Magigrams. As Philippe points out, the difference is that the halves are stepped lengthwise - which is actually how I imagined it from MarcillaAitor's description. Ken de Courcy doesn't claim it but it's the kind of thing I think he might have come up with. He also says it's useful for jumbo cards.

Thanks Steve for the Bill Spooner reference. Blackstone is again cited as the inspiration.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Martin Perry » January 26th, 2023, 1:48 pm

Back in my teenage years I probably used Ken’s rotary pass more than any other … until I could do a decent classic pass!

I’m 99% certain de Courcy published it in The Gen decades before its Magigram appearance, but I cannot locate the copy in question so far. The rotary pass also appeared in his book Sleighly Easier, along with several other simplified sleights (also previously published in The Gen) including a lovely out for a failed classic force I once saw Paul Daniels use.

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby Philippe Billot » January 26th, 2023, 4:54 pm

You are right with Sleightly Easier (1989) but not with The Gen.

In the Gen, he explained The ROTARY LIFT (1962)

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Re: question about Page-Kourcy card pass

Postby MarcillaAitor » January 26th, 2023, 9:22 pm

great work, friends yes is in: Ken De Courcy's "Cutting Middle to Top", Magicgram September 1983 p. 22. So i suposse Ken De Courcy show the pass to Patrick Page. In Spain Juan Tamariz make a collection of curse of magic in 1992 and in one page he explain this great pass and he give credit to Patrick Page. And reading the magigram, i have see the reference so i suposse is a pas learn by Patrick Page by Ken De Courcy and is for that, to get this information, so may be Ken dont invented, but is the place apear.


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