Scriptwriting for Magicians

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Tarotist
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 7th, 2023, 7:34 pm

The only thing I can see good about it is that I can use my little joke that I stole from Arnold Furst. Nobody laughs at it mind you, but it amuses me even if nobody else appreciates the scintillating wit employed. I would say, "It wouldn't be wooden if it wouldn't be wooden. Would it?"

The other joke I use frequently that nobody laughs at is when I see someone eating an ice cream. I say, "Better eat your ice cream before it goes cold!". As stated nobody laughs at this either but at least I can say I devised it myself and Arnold Furst had nothing to do with it.

BarryAllen
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby BarryAllen » January 8th, 2023, 7:34 am

Here's another one - this flies over barmaids heads:

You: "Large Jamesons please love".

Them: "Do you want ice in it"?

You: "Is it real ice.........or that frozen rubbish"?

You get a blank look more often than you get a laugh - but as I've used it for years, I'm not about to stop anytime soon.

Another thing I'll often use in a shop, is to nonchalantly take money out of a purse frame, - it's an old Pat Page idea. Nothing very magical about it - but it puts a smile on people's faces - so it's probably worth it.

Back in the good old days, a great sight gag I used was to stand at a bar and light up a fag using a fire wallet - then casually open it and pay for the drink(s).

Sorry - taking it off-track.

I was thinking earlier about some rehearsed patter that I do probably use - whenever I do Palm Reading. Whilst I don't really use a great deal of Cold Reading, there are many elements of Palm Reading whereby, because I've done it for so many years, I suppose I'm often using 'stock in trade' phrases - rather than go off on a ramble of abject nothingness.

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Marty Jacobs
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 8th, 2023, 8:06 am

I don't mind getting side-tracked. My other half calls these "Zelda Side Quests": pointless but a lot of fun.

This kind of joke reminds me of the deadpan comedy of American comic Steven Wright. Coincidentally, I mentioned him in a recent blog post. This is the line I discovered Steven had invented before me, that I use when someone asks, "Do that again!" for the umpteenth time:

"You know, I don't think I can. I'm experiencing déjà vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this trick before!"

I like the ice joke. It is an excellent example of a Paraprosdokian. Steven Wright is very fond of them: "On the other hand, you have different fingers."

And the Arnold Furst line works well with this trick. It reminds me of the old Mother Goose nursery rhyme:

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck
If a woodchuck could chuck wood?
As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck,
If a woodchuck could chuck wood.

Marty

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 8th, 2023, 9:21 am

Marty Jacobs wrote:I don't mind getting side-tracked...This is the line I discovered Steven had invented before me, that I use when someone asks, "Do that again!" for the umpteenth time: "You know, I don't think I can. I'm experiencing déjà vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this trick before!"


Thanks, Marty. Actually, having responses/come-backs ready for typical spectator comments or questions would seem to fit quite well into the topic of this thread. You (and Mr. Wright) have inspired me to come up with this silly little spin-off:

"Do it again? I would love to, but strange as it sounds, I get amnesia after every trick. Wait! Who are you? Where are we?"

Tarotist
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 8th, 2023, 10:14 am

Comedians badly need laughs otherwise they are in real trouble. Not so a magician. Smiles are good enough. If you do get laughs all the better of course but it is not an earth shattering matter if you don't providing your magic is strong. After all you are supposed to be a magician rather than a comedian. That is why I don't care if nobody laughs at my ice cream joke or the "wouldn't be wooden" one particularly when doing close up magic. A smile is good enough. I think it is somewhat more iffy if you make a weak joke on stage but again it is the magic that is important.
When I work sometimes I get laughs but very often smiles too and that is sufficient for me. I go for humour rather than belly laughs. Audiences like the performer to have a sense of humour, especially self deprecating humour, since it helps take the sting out of the "fooling" aspect. (Oh, how I hate the word "fooling"!) It makes for more pleasant entertainment all round.

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Marty Jacobs
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 8th, 2023, 10:22 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:Thanks, Marty. Actually, having responses/come-backs ready for typical spectator comments or questions would seem to fit quite well into the topic of this thread. You (and Mr. Wright) have inspired me to come up with this silly little spin-off:

"Do it again? I would love to, but strange as it sounds, I get amnesia after every trick. Wait! Who are you? Where are we?"


I like it. Do you mind if I add it, as an example, to the blog post?

As you mention, Mark, the joke doesn't have to generate a big laugh. A smile is good enough. In this situation, that's all you need to distract someone from insisting you repeat the trick.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 8th, 2023, 11:04 am

Marty Jacobs wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:Thanks, Marty. Actually, having responses/come-backs ready for typical spectator comments or questions would seem to fit quite well into the topic of this thread. You (and Mr. Wright) have inspired me to come up with this silly little spin-off:

"Do it again? I would love to, but strange as it sounds, I get amnesia after every trick. Wait! Who are you? Where are we?"


I like it. Do you mind if I add it, as an example, to the blog post?


Feel free to, Marty. I'm flattered that you would want to include it.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby PressureFan » January 8th, 2023, 11:12 am

Thanks Marty. I’d never heard of paraprosdokian before, but I think I said it once when I stubbed my toe. I’ve heard them called Boomerang Jokes, you easily follow the flight path of the line, then it hits you in the back of the head.

“I was cleaning up the attic last week with the wife. Dirty, filthy, covered in cobwebs… But she’s good with the kids.” -Tommy Cooper.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby BarryAllen » January 8th, 2023, 12:20 pm

There's an inflateable ATM just been installed at my local bank. A sign says 'Do not enter PIN'.

I was wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.

The police have just rang to inform me that they’ve recovered my stolen sofa. That was nice of them, it was starting to look a bit tatty.

I arrived early at the restaurant last night. The manager asked “Do you mind waiting for a bit“? I said "Not at all”. He said “Good......can you take these drinks to table 7″.

I've decided to sell all my chiropractic magazines. I have loads of back issues.

My Grandad always said, “as one door closes, another one opens”. Lovely man, terrible cabinet maker.

I went into a library and asked, “Do you have any books on shelving?” The librarian said, “all of 'em are”.

I said "any books about suicide"? He said "we used to have a few......buy nobody ever brought them back".

Before my surgery I asked the doctor if I could administer the anaesthetic. He said “Sure......knock yourself out”.

I'll get my coat! ;)




.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby AJM » January 8th, 2023, 12:39 pm

I don’t know about scriptwriting, but there are a few here that could do with some decent material.

Here is a little ‘bon-mot’ in response to some of the ‘gags’ on here.

‘They laughed when I said I was going to become a stand-up comedian - but they’re not laughing now.’

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AJM
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby AJM » January 8th, 2023, 12:40 pm

Oh please yourselves.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Dave Le Fevre » January 8th, 2023, 1:04 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:
Marty Jacobs wrote:I don't mind getting side-tracked...This is the line I discovered Steven had invented before me, that I use when someone asks, "Do that again!" for the umpteenth time: "You know, I don't think I can. I'm experiencing déjà vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this trick before!"


Thanks, Marty. Actually, having responses/come-backs ready for typical spectator comments or questions would seem to fit quite well into the topic of this thread. You (and Mr. Wright) have inspired me to come up with this silly little spin-off:

"Do it again? I would love to, but strange as it sounds, I get amnesia after every trick. Wait! Who are you? Where are we?"
I love both those replies, and I shall endeavour to remember them for the next time I get "Do that again!". Thank you, gentlemen.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Leo Garet » January 8th, 2023, 1:28 pm

AJM wrote:I don’t know about scriptwriting, but there are a few here that could do with some decent material.

‘They laughed when I said I was going to become a stand-up comedian - but they’re not laughing now.’


Bob Monkhouse?

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 8th, 2023, 1:57 pm

Dave Le Fevre wrote:...I love both those replies, and I shall endeavour to remember them for the next time I get "Do that again!". Thank you, gentlemen.


You're welcome, Dave. I'm betting that when you do magic, it's a fun experience for both you and the spectators (a/k/a participants).

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Marty Jacobs
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 8th, 2023, 2:52 pm

PressureFan wrote:Thanks Marty. I’d never heard of paraprosdokian before, but I think I said it once when I stubbed my toe. I’ve heard them called Boomerang Jokes, you easily follow the flight path of the line, then it hits you in the back of the head.

“I was cleaning up the attic last week with the wife. Dirty, filthy, covered in cobwebs… But she’s good with the kids.” -Tommy Cooper.


Yeah, it is a great word and a lot of fun to say. Calling them Boomerang Jokes makes sense, though, given their structure.

That Tommy Cooper joke is great. If you like that kind of humour, I'd also recommend British comedian Tim Vine. Many of his jokes have been mistakenly attributed to Tommy Cooper.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 8th, 2023, 3:12 pm

Leo Garet wrote:
AJM wrote:I don’t know about scriptwriting, but there are a few here that could do with some decent material.

‘They laughed when I said I was going to become a stand-up comedian - but they’re not laughing now.’


Bob Monkhouse?

Yep, that's classic Bob Monkhouse. Quite a few of his jokes have become very popular online. I watched him a lot on TV as a kid. He told a lot of jokes about his mother-in-law:

"My wife said: 'Can my mother come down for the weekend?' So I said: 'Why?' and she said: 'Well, she's been up on the roof two weeks already'."

In many respects, he was similar to Paul Daniels in his tone and delivery. This style of humour feels a little dated now, but I still think these jokes are funny. Here's another one by Bob Monkhouse that get attributed to lots of other comedians:

"I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my father. Not screaming and terrified like his passengers."

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 8th, 2023, 10:42 pm

BarryAllen wrote:
I was thinking earlier about some rehearsed patter that I do probably use - whenever I do Palm Reading. Whilst I don't really use a great deal of Cold Reading, there are many elements of Palm Reading whereby, because I've done it for so many years, I suppose I'm often using 'stock in trade' phrases - rather than go off on a ramble of abject nothingness.


When you read palms this is one area where you CANNOT use a memorised script! Why? Because you can't say the same thing to everyone you meet. Nowadays people record their readings on their phones and even in the old days most reputable readers would give the client a cassette tape of the reading. You must also remember people discuss their readings with their friends who have also had a reading from you. They would be gravely disapproving if both readings were the same! You just can't say the same thing to everyone you meet. Every reading has to be different.

There are indeed stock readings out there in magicians literature. I do not recommend their use. Neither do I recommend the use of so called "cold reading" because it is downright unnecessary. So what do you do? The obvious thing is to study palmistry for real and tell people what the lines on their INDIVIDUAL palms mean. Sometimes you might use the same phraseology for a particular line or mount but you are using genuine palmistry information. I believe that is the best way.

Incidentally here is my favourite palm reader at work. Not exactly viral like the videos of his card magic but still an incredible amount of views. Nearly viral anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ZV8X22U_c

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Dave Le Fevre » January 9th, 2023, 6:59 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:I'm betting that when you do magic, it's a fun experience for both you and the spectators
You flatter me. Genuinely, you do. I'm nothing special.

And thank you for the compliment.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 9th, 2023, 10:59 am

? What's going on? If you can't find your way through a trick it's better to tell lame jokes? That's darned inslulting to comics. If your tricks are not deceptive you're not doing magic. That's comedy of a different sort. :( Comics work on their material, down to the line, and even then it's about the audience.

Pause for effect. Look for glassyeyed stares - they are waiting for the effect - if they see the effect they will respond. You can encourage different forms of response including clapping, laughter, stunned silence broken by a cue to applaud...

Well at least we've started to mention actual audience feedback. :)

*Worst case option: It puts the spongeball on its nose.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 9th, 2023, 2:26 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:? What's going on? If you can't find your way through a trick it's better to tell lame jokes? That's darned inslulting to comics. If your tricks are not deceptive you're not doing magic. That's comedy of a different sort. :( Comics work on their material, down to the line, and even then it's about the audience.

Pause for effect. Look for glassyeyed stares - they are waiting for the effect - if they see the effect they will respond. You can encourage different forms of response including clapping, laughter, stunned silence broken by a cue to applaud...

Well at least we've started to mention actual audience feedback. :)

*Worst case option: It puts the spongeball on its nose.


Jonathan,

I'm curious who here posted that they were unable to find their way through a trick, or wrote that if they were unable to do so, it's better to tell lame jokes? I saw that some people posted some one liners they liked, but it seemed to me to have been in the spirit of levity and having some fun. Lighten up, brother.

Moreover, comedy and magic are not mutually exclusive. My favorite magician can have the audience in stitches, doubled over with laughter, while simultaneously blowing their minds like they've never been blown before. People love to laugh. Comedy is not the exclusive domain of comics. It's a wonderful and effective thing for public speakers, teachers and professors, people at social gatherings, families sitting around the dinner table, and, yes, magicians.

And, if I had to make a list of things in life I was least concerned with, insulting comics would be near or at the very bottom. Indeed, the comics I've known and seen aren't insulted by magicians who inject or attempt to inject comedy in what they do. And that is in the highly unlikely event comics ever even think about such things at all. They're too buy insulting people themselves.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 9th, 2023, 5:36 pm

I wasn't suggesting that telling bad jokes can make up for poor technique or execution. It doesn't. In the article I wrote about repeating tricks, I was specifically talking about using a silly joke as a way of politely refusing the request.

Magic is inherently playful, so adding a few jokes, no matter how silly, helps enhance the experience. At least, this approach works for me. It won't work as well for a magician who presents his magic more seriously.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 9th, 2023, 5:49 pm

Broadly speaking there are three types of magicians. Their patter should be compatible with their style. If they are a serious type of personality then humour may not suit them and in that case there is no law that they need to be funny. Their best bet would be to dramatic or alternatively mysterious----or perhaps both. The second type of performer is the one who is naturally funny and probably the more humour the better. Entertainment rather than mystery should be his or her goal and that would be reflected in the patter. The third type is probably the commonest type and that is the tounge in cheek, witty and friendly performer who holds you with his or her personality. Again the patter is moulded accordingly.

You have to choose with character type you fit the best and build on it as time goes by like interest growing in a bank. After a while it becomes second nature to you. Your "script" reflects that character and how you present it.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 9th, 2023, 6:02 pm

Agreed it's useful to deflect using self-effacing humor. I was grouching about attempts to ineptly use comedy to cover otherwise lacking presentation for magic. Comedy is more difficult than basic deception as you need to engage the audience more directly. Not so hard to get a cheap laugh but overdone or done poorly... watch out for judicious grieving ;)

If you're working, and your audiences like you, and you get callbacks - you're doing enough and well enough that we could discuss some examples of how to get along with the audience. As others have mentioned - that's usually going off script into "side quests" - and perhaps finding out what the audience is thinking can lead you to novel and more relevant routines.

What makes magic its own performing art is that it's entirely evaluated upon effective deception. Minus the deception it's ... something else - perhaps comedy, perhaps monologue, perhaps dance - or perhaps some combination of all and more. But minus the effective deception it's not our magic.

You have seen and know when a trick works - the audience is wont to actually respond to what they see. When you get that "deer in the headlights" and need to break the silence with an applause cue (thank you, would you like to participate in this next piece?) you're rolling for that audience. If your mien, your most suitable persona for that performance is comical - go for it. Most people also like to laugh.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 17th, 2023, 2:48 pm

I was reading this wise advice this morning.

"It is a mistake for the conjurer to feel that he can afford to appear before an audience and clothe his feats with suitable patter which he will invent as he goes along. It is just as much a mistake to learn your patter word for word to be repeated like a parrot"

The author then goes on to explain what seems to me to be a sensible procedure. He does advise that you memorise it word for word and rehearse the trick as you do it. However he then suggests that you forget all about it for a few days and put the entire thing out of your mind. When you return to it you will no longer say the same words and in fact you must make no attempt to repeat word for word what you have learned. "Your memory will feed you the highlights and although you may clothe these thoughts in new words you will gain spontaneity"

I rather think this makes good sense.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 18th, 2023, 3:07 am

Tarotist wrote:I was reading this wise advice this morning.

"It is a mistake for the conjurer to feel that he can afford to appear before an audience and clothe his feats with suitable patter which he will invent as he goes along. It is just as much a mistake to learn your patter word for word to be repeated like a parrot"

The author then goes on to explain what seems to me to be a sensible procedure. He does advise that you memorise it word for word and rehearse the trick as you do it. However he then suggests that you forget all about it for a few days and put the entire thing out of your mind. When you return to it you will no longer say the same words and in fact you must make no attempt to repeat word for word what you have learned. "Your memory will feed you the highlights and although you may clothe these thoughts in new words you will gain spontaneity"

I rather think this makes good sense.


This is pretty much what I do. As my performances are casual, this stops them from becoming overly theatrical, which would be weird given the context. Still, I wouldn't have a problem reciting patter lines word-for-word if it strengthened the performance.

Marty

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 18th, 2023, 9:47 am

My contention is that it does not strengthen the performance in most cases. In fact it can weaken it. If you are a good actor used to learning scripts maybe but in most cases it makes you sound like a robot and half the time you will forget the patter anyway. Still, for more detail on the matter look up pages 434/435 in Expert Card Technique. In fact while you are there read the entire section on presentation especially the first few pages.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Michael Rubinstein » January 18th, 2023, 1:05 pm

The part of sounding like a robot is pure bs, unless you ARE a robot. You keep harping on the same thing, but others do it their way and they do a great job. Every working pro can recite his patter by heart, yet improvise and deal with the audience when needed. It is called being prepared. Here is an example of a guy who used the same patter for 50 years, but also knew how to kill not just during his show pieces, but in his private parties and gigs. Mic drop.
https://youtu.be/5AZpT2aP9bI

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 18th, 2023, 1:30 pm

Rubinstein old chap. It is pointless you making David Roth an example to me because I have always been a fan of his and I do agree that you could probably learn a lot by studying his patter which is somewhat less long winded than yours. I have also been using the same patter for 50 years (actually more like 60 years) and nobody gets a better reaction from close up magic than I do. But then of course I am a wondrous human being with talents not available to lesser mortals. However, I did not learn it off by heart at the beginning and I bet David Roth didn't either. I bet it EVOLVED over time in his case. Again I repeat the words from Expert Card Technique thus:

" It is just as much a mistake to learn your patter word for word to be repeated like a parrot"

Again you are missing my point. I DO believe you have to have decent patter. It is the METHOD of memorising it that I am against. Remembering by rote is tedious and unnecessary. Usually uninspired too. Oh, and if one happens to be American probably long winded too! I still remember old Murray of Blackpool (the famous escapologist) complaining to me "American magicians are so long winded"

Oddly enough although I am a great fan of David Roth not everyone was. I still remember grumpy old Albert Goshman growling to me, "David Roth has no presentation".

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Michael Rubinstein » January 18th, 2023, 2:26 pm

Goshman (and others) were jealous of David's success. Some felt that as the new kid on the block, he took attention away from them
I was at one of my coin seminars where a guest performer (no names) came out and told him that to his face. David memorized his showpieces, and was able to recite them word for word at every show. Once Gallo, Roth, and myself were driving up to a coin seminar, and we began in unison reciting he patter for The Purse and Glass. And yes, he could riff if he needed to. Not only was he able to repeat his routines word for word and nuance for nuance, he did the same thing with all the stories he told. He didn't work that out for his audiences, he prepared and every sentence had meaning. And I would say that his showpieces are historic and timeless.
As I said in my earlier posts, everybody is different. For you, whatever works for you is fine. I have no argumentwith that. Or for the passage you found in a book. For me, especially as I age and some of my routines become more complex, I need to memorize a script, and work through it every day, fixing what doesn't sound right, until it becomes part of me. That way I don't need to pause or hesitate That process involves eliminating words or changing things until i feel it is ready . And filming myself at every practice session to make sure everything is coordinated. The words, the moves, the pauses. That is how I prepare, as do many who have routines that require it. But just because you don't prepare that way, doesn't make it wrong. It is right for me as well as for others, and I am sure each has a process that they have worked out over time to do what is best for them.
To make a flat out generalized statement that everyone who memorizes sounds robotic is just wrong. Different strokes for different folks. It is not your way or the highway, it is whatever method the performer finds that gives him success. Oh and by the way, taking shots at me endears you to no one. Because frankly, in the grand scheme of things you are only a voice on the internet and you can't shout here louder than anyone else in order to be heard.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 18th, 2023, 2:47 pm

I did not say that EVERYONE who memorizes things by rote sounds robotic. If you read my posts thoroughly you will see that I qualified things somewhat. I merely said that it is not a wise procedure to follow for "most" people. Furthermore I am not "taking shots" at you. I do realise that Americans seem to be shooting someone or other the entire time but that is not the the British way of going about things. I rather think you are too sensitive and do not understand humour. I think it would be of great value for you to get a sense of it.

Now I did watch the David Roth Tuning Fork video just now but alas I think he was a bit longer winded than normal especially at the beginning. I did think he needed to prune his patter a bit. It was still pretty good though.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Michael Rubinstein » January 18th, 2023, 3:28 pm

Tarotist, you basically trashed my method, and then you dissed me more than once, but whatever. I guess you found that all quite humorous. News flash, it wasn’t, and it has nothing to do with being sensitve. I just don't like rudeness. I hope going forward you treat people with respect, so people might actually listen to what you have to say. I have nothing more to add to this discussion as I made my points, and going in a circle or getting into a useless back and forth does no one any good.

Tarotist
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 18th, 2023, 5:50 pm

Michael. I was innocently going about my business educating the masses when you had the temerity to interrupt my sermon and disagree with me which I consider to be the end of civilization as we know it. As for treating people with respect you must remember that I am a pitchman and such an attitude is not part of the job description. We are all nasty horrible people whose only mission in life is to transfer other people's money from their pockets into ours.

However, we are all masters of showmanship and particularly in the area of "scripting" to use that pretentious word. Talking is our business. It would behoove those who wish to investigate these matters to see what they can learn. If you are happy with what I regard as a less effective method of memorizing so be it. There is nothing I can do about it.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

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Marty Jacobs
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 19th, 2023, 7:13 am

While I greatly admire the presentational skills of the traditional pitchman, I'm not a fan of using this delivery for the performance of magic when not selling tricks. The fast pacing and rapid-fire one-liners make the performance sound like a sales pitch (which I guess is the point). I prefer a more conversational tone, even if it is fully scripted.

Marty

Tarotist
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 19th, 2023, 9:53 am

Marty Jacobs wrote:While I greatly admire the presentational skills of the traditional pitchman, I'm not a fan of using this delivery for the performance of magic when not selling tricks. The fast pacing and rapid-fire one-liners make the performance sound like a sales pitch (which I guess is the point). I prefer a more conversational tone, even if it is fully scripted.

Marty


Alas the trouble with conversational tones is that they do tend to be dreadfully boring. One would not call Tamariz, Dani Ortiz or Bill Malone a proponent of "conversational tones" for example although they are all the rage with magicians. Oddly enough not for me sadly. I prefer things a bit quieter. A good magician should be like a window. A good window does not draw attention to itself. It just lets the light in. Of course you don't want a boring window either. Too many magicians go to the other extreme and perform in dull conversational tones that are a good cure for insomnia.

The REAL reason you do not favour the fast pacing and rapid-fire one liners is that it does not fit your personality. It certainly fits mine and the evidence of such are the millions of views I have on TicTok. However, when performing in non-pitch situations I slow down a bit and use less one liners although humour is certainly present but not to the same degree. And I get incredible reaction performing under the same conditions you perform in. In other words impromptu casual unpaid situations. The secret is not to talk in "conversational tones" but to talk like an entertaining showman. Too many "magicians" have the personality of dial tones. And you can LEARN to be an entertaining showman. There are ways.......................

Still, I want to be fair to you so I shall now give you the strongest argument in YOUR favour! My favourite magician was the MASTER of conversational tones! He did break with some of your practices though. He certainly didn't use any scripting of any kind and even at one point in this long video admitted that he didn't rehearse! And he did it on national television for decades on end! I have always said that a good magician does not present magic. He presents HIMSELF presenting magic. And here he is doing it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K7gcTvTap8

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Brad Henderson » January 19th, 2023, 10:12 am

A script and the performance of a script are two different things.

If someone delivers a script robotically, that isn’t the script’s fault.

Just as I’ve seen people mumble and stumble trying to recite a script, I’ve seen people mumble and stumble as they try to make it up as they go along.

Likewise, I’ve seen robotic and disengaged performances by people reciting scripts just as well be seen robotic and disengaged “performances” from people who didn’t have one.

These two things are completely unrelated.

Being in the moment is being in the moment. When you don’t have to worry what you’re going to say (and in magic, unlike ‘life’ our words have functions more than just conveying information, they contribute to the depth of deception as well, the give the entire exchange rhythm and flow) it’s easier to focus on the room and the people in it.

Just as the better you know the technique, the less you have to think about what you’re going to do, it’s easier to be in the moment and engage.

We know this is true of technique - the more you know what you’re going to do the less studied and false it will feel - the same is true of our verbal techniques. The less we have to think about what comes next - because when you have a script you know what comes next - the more bandwidth you have as a performer to work on making the moment feel real.

If it doesn’t, the problem isn’t having a script, it’s not knowing how to make it look like you’re in the moment.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jack Shalom » January 19th, 2023, 3:06 pm

Perfectly stated, Brad.

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Marty Jacobs
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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 19th, 2023, 6:23 pm

Yes, well put Brad. That separation between the script itself and the performance of the script is key.

Tarotist wrote:The REAL reason you do not favour the fast pacing and rapid-fire one liners is that it does not fit your personality.

No, I dislike this way of presenting magic as a spectator. I don't enjoy it myself, so I actively decided to avoid it as a performer. Other people might like it, but I don't. Interestingly, I do like this style when it doesn't involve proper magic, as seen in the comedy of Tommy Cooper or Tim Vine.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Brad Henderson » January 19th, 2023, 7:24 pm

The worst thing we magicians have taught ourselves is that our goal should be the replication of the practiced perfect. This is what produces the parrot effect.

Our goal should be to learn to create magic - in the moment with the clay we are offered with which to scoot. We practice to learn how best to manipulate that clay under various circumstances. But when we perform, one of that matters because none of that exists. What exists is that place and that time. So we sculpt. And yes, sometimes the handle falls off but we can now use it to make a filagree never imagined.

We can only do that when we have experience sculpting our visions from practice. We have master the techniques - physical and verbal - but not so we can repeat them. So we can use them to build in the moment.

If we work from the moment our work will be fresh - because the moment is never the same twice.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 19th, 2023, 10:54 pm

Marty Jacobs wrote:Yes, well put Brad. That separation between the script itself and the performance of the script is key.

Tarotist wrote:The REAL reason you do not favour the fast pacing and rapid-fire one liners is that it does not fit your personality.

No, I dislike this way of presenting magic as a spectator. I don't enjoy it myself, so I actively decided to avoid it as a performer. Other people might like it, but I don't. Interestingly, I do like this style when it doesn't involve proper magic, as seen in the comedy of Tommy Cooper or Tim Vine.


Yes Marty. But with all due respect your opinion doesn't count! You are not a LAYMAN! I can bloody well assure you that LAYMEN prefer that style! FAR, FAR prefer it! They are ENTERTAINED by it! The opposite style is colourless and it is just like you are showing puzzles to be solved. You really have no idea of the excitement I can cause among laymen when I perform in this style! You would have to witness it to experience it!

Now let me get back to the main point. I keep saying over and over again that I am in favour of scripting. I probably have more scripts in my head than all of you put together! How many times do I have to tell you all this? What I am NOT in favour of is the method some of you are using to memorise those scripts. Writing things out and learning it all by rote is a bloody awful way of going about things. It is tedious, boring and hard work for a start. That alone is a reason not to do it. However, the other danger is that at the beginning it will seem to lack spontaneity and with some people even longer than the beginning. Years later they still sound just as robotic as they did when they first started. That NEVER happens with the methods I have advocated.

You only have to watch that Penn and Teller show to see how scripted the performers are. You can tell a mile off that someone has told them to learn something off by heart and say it into the camera. Or perhaps it was a teleprompter---God only knows! The only one who is not scripted is Penn himself! Oh and Teller too for obvious reasons..........

I do NOT think you should make it up as you go along. But neither do I think you should laboriously learn it all off by heart. There is a middle way you know.

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Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 20th, 2023, 12:10 pm

Outside of the necessity of effective deception - there is much we can adopt from other performing arts.
Do we wish to introduce the audience to a character?
What does the performance offer the audience?
How closely do we want the audience to focus on us, the props... ?

Is the item (effect) supposed to happen for a volunteer? to a volunteer? use a volunteer as committee for the audience? Use a volunteer as a table?

In getting through a trick (routine, piece, mystery...) there are some things which need to be done, and some to be said, to make sure the procedure is clear to the audience. What goes where, and what needs to be said are your minimal script. Additional bits to serve the moment with the audience, demonstrate character traits, or set up larger themes in the routine are ... as appropriate.

Agreed we are in a much more visual culture than back when some of our literature was written. Even so, actions are part of the script.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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