Scriptwriting for Magicians

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
User avatar
Marty Jacobs
Posts: 156
Joined: March 24th, 2009, 12:15 pm
Favorite Magician: Alex Elmsley
Location: Essex, United Kingdom

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » December 18th, 2022, 3:54 pm

Tarotist wrote:Oh, do it any way you like........................


Yes, I will, thanks. But I'm always open to the ideas of other performers, and I'm willing to try their suggestions.

For example, on the other magic forum (the green one), Paul McCrory made me aware of the "Rivers and Lakes" model from the world of computer game design. Here's a summary of what Paul shared with me:

The Rivers and Lakes model (also known as the String of Pearls model) involves imagining that your routines are made up of tightly scripted paths—the "rivers"—and looser, interactive segments where the audience has (or appears to have) more control (or "user agency" as game designers call it). These interactive portions are the "lakes". This approach allows you to manage one of the biggest challenges of interactive storytelling: finding the balance between a responsive experience and a satisfying journey that ends with a rewarding destination.

Paul has written a book for educators that uses the toolkit of the magician to help teachers develop stronger presentation skills. A summary of the chapter of his book, which discusses spontaneity and scripting, can be read online.

Marty

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 18th, 2022, 8:21 pm

I can often tell how good a performer is by their writing style. No kidding! If a writer writes in a light humorous style you will usually find his performing style is quite similar. Conversely, if they write in an overly serious style they are probably like that when performing. And if they write in a complex hard to follow dull style they are probably a mentalist! I therefore took a look at Mr
McRory's writing sample and think he must be a scientist of some sort. His theories are far too scientific for my aged brain.

Still, as a point of interest I tend to think this other gentleman I am going to tell you about is a rather good person to learn from and I bet he never went to acting school. Yet his patter is enthralling, has great clarity, entertaining even though entertainment is not his main purpose, plus the timing of his words and how he emphasizes certain words in a certain way. He certainly talks far better than most magicians I know. Here he is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0

He came from the world I come from. The British grafter. And the word is not "grifter" which has an entirely different meaning. The word is GRAFTER which daft Americans call "pitchman" for some unearthly reason. Oh and the words that are used are not called "patter" or "scripts" or "spiels". The word for the selling selling patter is called "fanny". Yes ----it really is...........

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 18th, 2022, 10:41 pm

Well, Mark, at least you have another possible avenue for income if you suddenly can't do magic.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 18th, 2022, 11:00 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Well, Mark, at least you have another possible avenue for income if you suddenly can't do magic.


Oh, I HAVE worked the peeler in the past! I still have the scar on my thumb to prove it! The only time I ever sold any was when I cut myself to pieces and blood was pouring all over the table. People felt sorry for me and it was only then they got their money out. I remember it was at a department store in Eastbourne and John Wade was appearing at a theatre down the street doing a less painful job.

I have actually "pitched" (if I have to use that dreadful Americanism) many different products besides the svengali deck. And this was even before I found out that the svengali deck was a pitchman's product. I sold the Blo Bloon, Corkmaster, Ironing Board covers, Spanners (what Americans call wrenches for some unearthly reason) Knives, the bloody peeler (bloody being the operative word) and many others. The ones I had the most success with were the flower holders and eyeglass cleaners. Oh, and the "huggers" These were little rubber rings to stop your glasses slipping down your nose. Of course in time the rubber would ruin the glasses but value for money has never been one of my priorities. Oddly enough I still remember selling the Great Masoni the eyeglass cleaner but I never let on I knew who he was.

I did quite well with the eyeglass cleaner until someone had the audacity to murder my supplier and cut up his body and put the body parts in a plastic bag. I found that this was most impolite behaviour especially as I couldn't sell the eyeglass cleaner any more.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 18th, 2022, 11:47 pm

I think I can remember the "fanny" for the eyeglass cleaner! You wait until someone passes you and offer to clean their glasses. You take the glasses and start the cleaning processes.,

"Once on one side and once on the other side. Guaranteed not to scratch the lens. Now with an ordinary handkerchief or a kleenex tissue you wipe it clean. Now you ladies know that once you open the oven door, when you do the cooking or when you put the kettle on your glasses will steam up, won't they? Well, once you put this on your glasses will not mist, they will not steam up for 24 hours. Breathe on your glasses sir. You see how they don't mist up? OK. Try them on. How do they look?"

And then I would "come to the bat". For those of you who do not understand grafter's language this means telling them the price and closing the sale. I can't remember what I said to "bat" them but I do know that I sold rather a lot.

After my supplier was murdered I had to find a new source. I just checked and found this on E-Bay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/143414157267 This is the exact product I sold from the new supplier. It was actually a very good product and much better than the ones I used from my deceased supplier but of course more expensive. I complained to the new supplier that the "Miracle Dot" was more expensive than the stuff I had been using and he retorted, "Don't you know a ream line from a bent line?" I had better translate. This means in grafters language, "Don't you know a good quality product from a crooked one?". He did have a good point so I went on to the Miracle dot instead.

Bob Farmer
Posts: 3308
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Bob Farmer » December 19th, 2022, 10:38 am

I have an excellent book printed in England in 1964. It is entitled Grafters All--A Guide To The Art of Robbery by Eric Parr, so the meaning Mark ascribes to the word may be a bit wider.

Leo Garet
Posts: 617
Joined: March 14th, 2015, 9:14 am
Favorite Magician: Nobody In Particular

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Leo Garet » December 19th, 2022, 10:53 am

Tarotist wrote:After my supplier was murdered I had to find a new source.

What a lovely throwaway line.
:)

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 19th, 2022, 3:53 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:I have an excellent book printed in England in 1964. It is entitled Grafters All--A Guide To The Art of Robbery by Eric Parr, so the meaning Mark ascribes to the word may be a bit wider.


I don't know this book and when I look it up I see it on sale but it does not have a book description. The meaning of the word "grafters" has never been about robbery but demonstrating and selling to a crowd. The grafter doing the selling might well be a robber but he doesn't have to be. I was wondering if the meaning had changed while I have been out of the country but now that I see the book was printed in 1964 I realise that can't be the case. In the UK the British public have never heard of the word "grafters" anyway unless they are in the business in some way perhaps as a vendor on a street market where grafters used to abound but I believe don't abound quite so much any more.

If the book is talking about criminals such as thieves and bank robbers the word "Grafters" is the wrong word and I have no idea why it is being used in that context. The usual term among grafters for criminals is "villains".

Incidentally I do know that some people in Britain used the term "grafters" for someone who works hard.

All this reminds me of the time I bumped into a fellow grafter on a train who gave me some business advice at the time. In addition to the advice I remember him scoffing at other grafters saying, "Oh, the grafters fancy themselves as villains but they are nothing near the real thing" In other words although a few of them sell dodgy products and use sharp practice to sell them they aren't really criminals. A little shady perhaps but that isn't the same thing. They are all pretty streetwise though.

I have always recommended a book called "The Hard Sell" by Trevor Pinch and Colin Clark which gives the fullest insight on grafters (especially street market grafters in the UK) and how they operate. In fact Professor Clark has made one or two posts on this very forum.

Anyway, I am delighted to see that Vanity Fair in their headline about Joe Ades uses the proper term GRAFTER!
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2006/05/grafter200605

Leo Garet
Posts: 617
Joined: March 14th, 2015, 9:14 am
Favorite Magician: Nobody In Particular

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Leo Garet » December 20th, 2022, 10:56 am

Tarotist wrote:Incidentally I do know that some people in Britain used the term "grafters" for someone who works hard.

Indeed. But rather than some, many, many people use the term "Hard Graft" to refer to hard work.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 20th, 2022, 12:28 pm

Leo Garet wrote:
Tarotist wrote:Incidentally I do know that some people in Britain used the term "grafters" for someone who works hard.

Indeed. But rather than some, many, many people use the term "Hard Graft" to refer to hard work.


Yes. Nowadays they use it but not in the old days when I was around. The public got the word from us in the first place because demonstrating all day for hours on end IS hard work! The other word which has gotten out to the public that only grafters used is "punters" and I am irritated that normal people use it nowadays when the word comes from US! And when I say "US" I mean grafters.
Magicians really know nothing whatsoever about this business unless they have been in it themselves.

Incidentally I was quite surprised to see this on a magician's website recently. The key words are "he had no shame" THAT is the secret of being a good grafter!

"Later that summer, I also teamed up with another magician by the name of Mark Lewis. He was a fantastic pitch man who was able to sell magic decks of cards at various places. He hired me to work on solely commission at Centre Island selling a trick deck of cards. Having to take the bus, subway, street car & ferry boat daily which took about 2 hours each way didn’t stop me. I was not the greatest sales guy- I literally made about $50 a day. However, this experience during my high school days helped me greatly. Watching Mark selling magic was like an art form. He could literally sell these decks of cards to anyone and everyone. He had no shame and was a master pitch man. While I was looking for applause, he only cared about people buying his tricks. Gave me a good glimpse into the world of selling magic and helped me with my presentation skills."

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 24th, 2022, 11:28 am

Anyway with regard to this scriptwriting matter, interestingly enough I came across this in a Robert Giobbi book this morning. An interesting insight on the matter:

"Many professionals will advise you to write a script for every important trick, and indeed you will have success in doing so. But as a representative of the Spanish school of thought, I am of the opinion that a script to which one adheres slavishly can also interfere with the authenticity of the relationship you seek with the audience, particularly when you try to "act" and cannot. (Only a few of us can. I'm not one of them)"

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 24th, 2022, 12:30 pm

That is a great and true quote.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 24th, 2022, 1:27 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:That [Giobbi quote] is a great and true quote.


Absolutely. Below are some salient excerpts from an article written by a professional "presentation coach" that appeared in the Harvard Business Review on the topic of presenting a speech to an audience. Although his points are directed to delivering a speech in the context of business, I think they are quite applicable to magic, the vital common denominator in any presentation being making a connection with the audience. Anyway, here are some excerpts from the article:

“Don’t worry,” a coaching client once told me shortly after I saw her rehearse her presentation. “I’ll have it completely written and memorized by next week!”

To my trained ears, she might as well have been saying, “Don’t worry, I’ll make my task pointlessly hard and ensure a distant connection with my audience!”

Like many people, she thought a “good speech” is something you write out word-for-word and read aloud — perhaps even memorize. Some learned this approach in school. Others inferred it from seeing stirring, perfect speeches from politicians, award recipients, and fictional television characters.

…[W]riting a full speech is a process that excludes the audience, whereas delivering a speech with limited notes involves and incorporates the audience into the experience. This concept is critical, because humans are more apt to give attention to speakers who seem to, or actually do, demonstrate a sincere interest in them. “The key to delivering a successful speech is showing your audience members that you care about them,” says Steve D. Cohen, an author and professor at Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. “If you maintain an audience-centered approach, your listeners will reward you with appreciation.”

…When you memorize something, you are still reading — now with the script in your head instead of in your hands — and the slightest memory failure can cause you to lose your place and throw you off. Even small memory lapses and bobbles may reveal to your audience you’re reciting from a script, which can injure your credibility, your authenticity, and their respect for you as an invited presenter.

For the full article, see
https://hbr.org/2021/01/stop-scripting-your-speeches

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 24th, 2022, 2:17 pm

This is what I have been trying to say all along but nobody seems to take any notice until other people are quoted. I actually took a public speaking course when I was 18 years old. It was drilled into us never to learn a speech off by heart. And that applies to magic too.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 24th, 2022, 5:39 pm

Tarotist wrote:This is what I have been trying to say all along but nobody seems to take any notice until other people are quoted. I actually took a public speaking course when I was 18 years old. It was drilled into us never to learn a speech off by heart. And that applies to magic too.


Yes, you have been saying it all along, and quite articulately. I took notice, and I'm sure others have, as well.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 24th, 2022, 5:56 pm

Oh they probably will now that Giobbi said it!

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 24th, 2022, 6:07 pm

Marty Jacobs wrote:
I'll concede that some magicians are bad actors, and if they use a script, it might cause problems. However, in my experience, a magician who is a lousy actor is also a lousy magician in a more general sense; there are usually more fundamental issues with the way they perform.

Marty


"particularly when you try to "act" and cannot. (Only a few of us can. I'm not one of them)"---Roberto Giobbi

In light of Roberto Giobbi admitting he is not a good actor I would not dream of bringing up Marty's quote above in a bid to create mischief. Everyone knows that sort of thing is not in my character.....................

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 1221
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Brad Jeffers » December 24th, 2022, 6:44 pm

Giobbi wrote:"Many professionals will advise you to write a script for every important trick, and indeed you will have success in doing so."
Exactly!
Good advice.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 24th, 2022, 10:46 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Giobbi wrote:"Many professionals will advise you to write a script for every important trick, and indeed you will have success in doing so."
Exactly!
Good advice.


Yes, but he didn't say good success. In fact no adjective at all. Perhaps he meant mediocre success...........

Anyway he also said this:

"Formal elements such as roles, actors, SCRIPTS etc; run the risk of falsifying who you are, because communications will take place by means of an artificial character, and not directly by virtue because of the person you really are"

Yes I capitalized the word SCRIPTS. I didn't want you to miss it.

User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1851
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Tom Whitestone

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Q. Kumber » December 26th, 2022, 5:12 pm

That the words you say is the only script in a performance of magic is a misconception. There are many scripts. The most basic script is composed of the actions you do to make the trick work, generally referred to as 'the instructions". For the sake of discussion, let's assume we are dealing with a competent magician.

First you have to learn the physical actions, even if it is a 'self-working' trick.

Once these are learnt, the secret actions have to be made invisible. So now we are on to a layer of misdirection and blocking. Some of the misdirection will be physical, some mental and some verbal. (The misdirection script)

The basic trick is the skeleton of the routine, the second phase is the flesh.

Now we come to the dressing, which covers the words and the hook. (The verbal script).

Each of these phases is a script on its own and these three phases have to seamlessly meld to achieve a successful outcome. Look on it as a photoshop image that has various layers added before they are locked together.

Now to try the routine on an audience. More often than not some or all of the three layers will have to be adapted and jiggled around and possibly dropped completely. It can take months or years before you are fully happy.

There are other layers that can be part of a performance piece but these three are the most basic.

Your finished performance piece is really a script of many layers of differing scripts that really can't be pulled asunder.

It's worthwhile watching the director's commentary on good movies. You can learn a lot on how to get an idea across.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 26th, 2022, 6:26 pm

I must be very lucky. I don't need to agonise or drive myself nuts over what to say when I perform. I know some magicians can manage the technical part but either they have no idea what to say, or if they do know what to say it is dull and boring anyway. The first thing I do when I have to learn a new trick is to master the technical aspects. I can learn this very quickly or it might take me ages depending on the actual trick. However, I can work out the patter very quickly indeed, say somewhere between five minutes or 20 minutes at the very most. And what I end up saying is usually amusing or attention getting in some way. And I very rarely need to add anything or change it unless the change comes on the spur of the moment when performing and I decided to leave it in because it got a laugh.

Once I have worked out the patter I do NOT learn it off by heart in the way various daft magicians do. I practice the trick out loud maybe 3 or 4 times with the props in hand saying what I have to say and of course it comes out the same more or less each time and then I am ready to perform the damn thing to live people. I have been doing it this way for decades and it saves a whole lot of time.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 1221
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Brad Jeffers » December 26th, 2022, 7:57 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:That the words you say is the only script in a performance of magic is a misconception.

Exactly.

Some of the most beautifully scripted acts in magic don't contain a single word ..
Cardini, Norm Nielsen, Shimada, etc.

Who would criticize these performers for "adhering slavishly" to their scripts?

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 26th, 2022, 9:05 pm

If they are not saying a word how the bloody hell are they using a script? I know Cardini used to mumble away quietly when he worked but the audience couldn't hear him anyway so he could adhere or not adhere slavishly and nobody would give a toss anyway..............

Besides the correct word is PATTER! I would love to see how the correct word "patter" can be done in three layers, two of which you don't say a word.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 27th, 2022, 11:23 am

Mark, it's a mental script. One's head should not be empty when performing.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 27th, 2022, 1:17 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Mark, it's a mental script. One's head should not be empty when performing.


I think many magicians heads are empty whether they are performing or not!

In any event this thread is supposed to be about scriptwriting of the tongue rather than in the head. Even Marty who started the discussion didn't say a word about all this other irrelevant tosh. I think this is another example of why the word PATTER should be used instead of that pretentious word "scripting". If Marty had said "Patter writing for magicians" we would not have gone off on this tangent.

Anyway, I gravely disapprove of this awful "silent scripting" nonsense and always have ever since I read about it in that dreadful Henning Nelms book written by a man who had never done a magic show in his life. I know he had a theatrical background but that is always a bad sign. These theatrical types always go all intellectual and perform as if they are playing Hamlet instead of doing the sponge ball trick.

The human mind can only think of one thing at a time. Magic is PEOPLE! You have to concentrate on the PEOPLE! You have to figure out how to manipulate them, how to make them react, how to deceive them, how to misdirect them. You have to concentrate on THEM. You cannot do this if you are babbling to yourself in your mind like a mental patient.

Now there may be a case for it if you are doing a silent act but even here you have to spend a bit of time communicating with your audience either by smiling at them or at least looking at them trying to express something or other. I do concede Cardini didn't do this because he was too busy acting drunk. However, we aren't talking about silent acts anyway. We are supposed to be talking about PATTER and the best way to learn and deliver it.

I bet Joe Ades wasn't doing silent scripts when he was selling those peelers. He was too busy thinking "How do I get money out of these bastards?" or "I hope the cops don't move me on or stop me working"

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 27th, 2022, 2:59 pm

Tarotist wrote:...These theatrical types always go all intellectual and perform as if they are playing Hamlet instead of doing the sponge ball trick. The human mind can only think of one thing at a time. Magic is PEOPLE! You have to concentrate on the PEOPLE! You have to figure out how to manipulate them, how to make them react, how to deceive them, how to misdirect them. You have to concentrate on THEM. You cannot do this if you are babbling to yourself in your mind like a mental patient...


Magician apparently places one sponge ball in his hand and closes it, and apparently places one sponge ball in the spectator's hand. Holding up his closed hand, magician says, "Is this ball to be or not to be, that is the question?"

In all seriousness, though, I wholeheartedly agree with Mark. Magic is people. They are the most important thing, even more so than the tricks. Time and time again, I have seen magicians miss out on marvelous opportunities for great entertainment by, as it has been aptly described here, slavishly adhering to a script. Despite the best laid plans of mice and magicians, people will make comments and they will ask questions while we are performing. Oftentimes they are funny things, or the things they say present golden opportunities for interacting with them in an engaging way, to involve and include them, to break character and to improvise. They want to be included, not just sit there and watch how clever we are. These interactions can heighten the entertainment immeasurably. Many magicians consider comments and questions an intrusion and get tripped up by them, seeking to return to their memorized script or patter ASAP. it has been observed many times that the two things that interest people most are first, themselves, and second, other people. A performer can exploit this to great advantage

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 27th, 2022, 3:19 pm

Indeed. And not only is it difficult to go off script with a spoken script it is twice as hard to go off a silent script. You can't be babbling in your head to a set script when outside your head someone is saying, "I can see that card sticking out where you are trying to hide it in your hand"

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 28th, 2022, 2:01 am

Screaming silent script: The performer now directs his attention to a coin picked up from the table, and proceeds to direct his every energy into his fingers which cramp into white knuckled position enhanced by a quaint fourth finger displacement parody of how salt from a salt dish was handled two centuries ago. This last ( flying pinkie pose ) done without apparent awareness of context. Silent in that the performer does not speak words yet the audience knows to follow the tension.

Brad Jeffers wrote:Some of the most beautifully scripted acts in magic don't contain a single word ..
Cardini, Norm Nielsen, Shimada, etc.

Who would criticize these performers for "adhering slavishly" to their scripts?

I don’t recall hearing or reading that any of those three have set down the actual choreography, music cues, physical preparation, setup, fallback options, and overt actions ( and hidden trickery ) for the routines we have enjoyed watching. Look at the detailed worksheets used in plays. There are tapemarks on the floor, lighting and music cues, stage directions, and line cues. Some of these are commonly discussed in magic books. “pretend to” and “secretly acquire/retain/dispose…” are script elements. As is “tell them…”, which seems to invite a strange form of comedy where what should be self evident to the audience is announced for those listening at home on the radio, somehow missing the “why are you doing this” and sometimes even “who are you doing this for”.

For example, David Roth mentioned practicing his routines in sets in a manner similar to gym exercises.

On the downside of teaching tyros to imitate out of context is the risk of coming across as giving a recital rather than engaging the audience into the performance.

TL;DR get a director and listen to their feedback about what works for your audience in performance.

Note for serious students: Aristotle’s Poetics and Rhetoric offer sage advice on persuading and presenting. Available in English for free. Simulation (mimesis), Audience Rapport ( establishing ethos and pathos, before asking to be believed ), and other valuable tools/notions await the reader.

* How about we contrive an Ancient Greek magician and make some guesses about the tricks they would find useful/practical? Create the sort of book they might produce in context. David Devant sort of attempted this in Our Magic with similar format to Aristotle's On Rhetoric.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Dave Le Fevre
Posts: 365
Joined: December 24th, 2015, 10:29 am
Favorite Magician: Paul Megram

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Dave Le Fevre » December 28th, 2022, 4:36 am

When someone mentions silent script, I always think of it as inner monologue. It's what I think I'm doing, it's what I'm conveying to the audience.

I have a coin in my right hand, and I'm looking at it. I put it in my left hand (spoiler - it's a false transfer), my gaze is transferred to my left hand, my left hand goes upwards, my left hand goes forwards. Everything says "this is where the coin is". That's my inner monologue, or whatever terminology one chooses.

And it is useful. Decades ago I was teaching someone a simple false transfer, and it didn't look right. Eventually I realised that instead of moving their gaze to the other hand as it "took" the coin, they were consciously moving their gaze, but were doing so a tiny fraction later. I said that they should "think" that the coin is actually moving from the right hand to the left hand, and then their gaze will automatically be correct. They did so, and their false transfer improved hugely. A result for inner monologue - because I say to myself that I'm putting the coin into that hand, all my body language confirms it.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » December 28th, 2022, 10:48 am

Yes, I do that too but it is only for a fraction of a second and it is for a technical matter rather than a presentational one. However, if you are doing it all the time you might end up going nuts! Still, at least you didn't mention Aristotle like Jonathon did. I am still trying to figure out what he had to do with the matter. It is all Greek to me..............

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 7259
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Dustin Stinett » December 28th, 2022, 3:51 pm

A fascinating thread thus far. I need a written script (or my "patter"--whatever you want to call it). When I was a youth, before I knew I had to write down a presentation, I was a nervous wreck because, even though I had the "trick" memorized--ingrained (whatever)--my brain was still trying to do two different things at once; remembering the technique and trying to figure out what to say. It was an internal conflict. Scripting stops that--for me, anyway. As Barry Allen noted early on in this thread, that's a dead give-away of the beginner.

As I aged and started getting picky about what new effects I would go through the trouble of learning, if the germ of an idea for a presentation didn't pop into my head, I would usually skip it. Coming up with a premise is the hardest thing there is for me in this craft.

The other side of the coin with scripting, and jealously sticking to it, is--and I see this with pros who've been around for a long time--magicians who perform AT their audience. I find that painful to watch. It was John Carney who, many years ago, pointed out to me that my style was "conversational," and I should stick to that versus trying to come up with a character (a thought I had been toying with at the time). Sticking to "me" would prevent me from committing the sin of ignoring my audience.

That's where improv classes come in. I don't know who actually said it, but the script is just the tree trunk that you scurry back to when the branch you went out on starts to bend too much. Knowing that the nice, sturdy, trunk is there is comforting. You can always go back to it. But you have to be able stray away from it when the moment arises--when someone says something that should not be ignored, but is way off script. One needs to listen to their audience and interact with them.

I believe it doesn't matter if your scripts are (or, for Mark, "patter is") stories or--as Hannibal calls it--the "adventures of the props" (or a mix of them, which is best). It doesn't matter if it's internal or vocal (and yes, Cardini clearly had a script); I believe there should be one for everything you do.

Something else I find fascinating about this thread are the parallels that exist between this one and the large one on acting that started back in March: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=53971

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 28th, 2022, 5:25 pm

Nice post, Dustin. And underscoring that in magic, as in life at large, what's good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.

User avatar
Marty Jacobs
Posts: 156
Joined: March 24th, 2009, 12:15 pm
Favorite Magician: Alex Elmsley
Location: Essex, United Kingdom

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » December 31st, 2022, 7:54 pm

Thanks, Dustin. I feel very similar to you. If I don't have a written script, I have to make one up on the fly, as I also attempt to manage the technical elements of the trick in my head. So while I memorise the script, I don't recite it verbatim. Most people who have contributed to this thread seem to agree that this often leads to stiff and lifeless delivery.

When I've performed a trick for while, I find it very difficult to separate the technical elements from the verbal script. So I do think that there could be benefits to writing out a full theatrical script, including things like stage directions as well as the other elements Jonathan Townsend mentioned. However, if you're performing close-up and you have a more "conversational" style, then such details may well be superfluous.

Tarotist wrote:I can often tell how good a performer is by their writing style. No kidding! If a writer writes in a light humorous style you will usually find his performing style is quite similar. Conversely, if they write in an overly serious style they are probably like that when performing. And if they write in a complex hard to follow dull style they are probably a mentalist! I therefore took a look at Mr McRory's writing sample and think he must be a scientist of some sort. His theories are far too scientific for my aged brain.

Ha, I certainly agree with your comment about mentalists!

This is why the Rivers and Lakes model appeals to me. Using this approach, you're building opportunities for interaction into your routine rather than hoping they'll happen organically. To be fair to Mr McRory, his book is aimed at academic staff who teach at UK universities, not magicians.

Marty

User avatar
Marty Jacobs
Posts: 156
Joined: March 24th, 2009, 12:15 pm
Favorite Magician: Alex Elmsley
Location: Essex, United Kingdom

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Marty Jacobs » January 4th, 2023, 8:56 am

Here are a couple of quotations that are relevant to this discussion. I stumbled across them when reading a reach paper on magic and expertise.

"A successful performance involves moment-to-moment improvisation combined with well-scripted elements."

“Performances must be partially scripted and controlled in conjunction with situational improvisation to allow the magician to lead the audience in a desired direction. It is essential, in real-time, to be able to heed the audience’s behavior and react to it continuously.”


Marty

If you're interested in reading the full paper, here's the direct link: Expertise among professional magicians: an interview study

User avatar
katterfelt0
Posts: 274
Joined: February 2nd, 2021, 2:11 pm
Favorite Magician: Depends on the day. Today, Rick Maue.

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby katterfelt0 » January 4th, 2023, 9:17 am

Marty Jacobs wrote:If you're interested in reading the full paper, here's the direct link: Expertise among professional magicians: an interview study

Thank you for posting that, Marty. I skimmed it and found it really interesting so I downloaded it for a more thorough study.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 4th, 2023, 10:25 am

Since Marty brought up "lead" - may as well get the entire notion out there: "rapport". That in turn brings up the question/significance of "pacing".

If the audience is not comfortable with the performer talking to and then at appropriate moments listening to - they will tune out or worse. Which kind of explains how so many wind up doing "recital" type performances and discussing things which don't help when performing for audiences.

Michael Rubinstein
Posts: 97
Joined: June 28th, 2019, 2:41 pm
Favorite Magician: Michael Rubinstein

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Michael Rubinstein » January 4th, 2023, 1:15 pm

For years I worked with Roth, who could recite patter and stories verbatim, including the exact same inflections. From him I learned to create and memorize my script to the point that I could recite it in my sleep. In order to accomplish that, I would repeat my script over and over while doing mundane things like walking my dog or taking a shower, editing to remove, change, or add words as needed, until it sounded good and became really tight. That way I would just need to concentrate on the performance. I film my practice sessions and watch to make sure movements coordinate with patter (as well as watch for unnatural movements, flashes, etc.) If you know your script well enough, distractions and interactions won't cause you to "lose your place" or skip something. Anyway, that's what I do. From the comments here I would guess most everyone is different in their approaches.

User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1851
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Tom Whitestone

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Q. Kumber » January 4th, 2023, 2:04 pm

Michael Rubinstein wrote:For years I worked with Roth, who could recite patter and stories verbatim, including the exact same inflections. From him I learned to create and memorize my script to the point that I could recite it in my sleep. In order to accomplish that, I would repeat my script over and over while doing mundane things like walking my dog or taking a shower, editing to remove, change, or add words as needed, until it sounded good and became really tight. That way I would just need to concentrate on the performance. I film my practice sessions and watch to make sure movements coordinate with patter (as well as watch for unnatural movements, flashes, etc.) If you know your script well enough, distractions and interactions won't cause you to "lose your place" or skip something. Anyway, that's what I do. From the comments here I would guess most everyone is different in their approaches.


So you rehearse and edit till you know what you are saying and doing?
What a novel idea.

Tarotist
Posts: 1366
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Tarotist » January 4th, 2023, 2:27 pm

I have nothing against knowing what to say and knowing it thoroughly. What I am against is the method of memorising. You do have to remember what to say but the method of remembering is what I take issue with. In other words learning it off by heart like a bloody robot. I say more or less the same thing every time I perform but it isn't learned by rote. That is a very tedious and laborious method and would bore the crap out of me. I don't think it is an accident that people who use this inefficient method tend to be uninspiring performers.

Michael Rubinstein
Posts: 97
Joined: June 28th, 2019, 2:41 pm
Favorite Magician: Michael Rubinstein

Re: Scriptwriting for Magicians

Postby Michael Rubinstein » January 4th, 2023, 3:10 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:So you rehearse and edit till you know what you are saying and doing?
What a novel idea.


Yes. Yes I do. Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread, and thanks the sarcasm, right back atcha.

Tarotist wrote:I have nothing against knowing what to say and knowing it thoroughly. What I am against is the method of memorising. You do have to remember what to say but the method of remembering is what I take issue with. In other words learning it off by heart like a bloody robot. I say more or less the same thing every time I perform but it isn't learned by rote. That is a very tedious and laborious method and would bore the crap out of me. I don't think it is an accident that people who use this inefficient method tend to be uninspiring performers.


Well, guess I am uninspiring. I find the method to work for me, especially for my more complex showpieces. But to each his own.


Return to “General”