Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

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Brad Henderson
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Brad Henderson » March 23rd, 2021, 10:29 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:I just checked and The Prestige received an Academy Award nomination for best Art Direction (art director and set director). Plus best art direction nominations at various other awards venues. I think that illustrates the relative unimportance of any quibbles about the accuracy of certain period design choices. The film did a great job of establishing a visual atmosphere and sense of mystery within a fictionalized steampunk victorian era setting and was recognized for it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/awards



And you were Incapable or seeing the inaccuracies.

And rather than admit it, you keep flogging the horse.

You’re supposed to collect the evidence and then draw the conclusion. Not make your conclusion and then seek the evidence. .

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2021, 12:05 am

Brad Henderson wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:I just checked and The Prestige received an Academy Award nomination for best Art Direction (art director and set director). Plus best art direction nominations at various other awards venues. I think that illustrates the relative unimportance of any quibbles about the accuracy of certain period design choices. The film did a great job of establishing a visual atmosphere and sense of mystery within a fictionalized steampunk victorian era setting and was recognized for it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/awards


And you were Incapable or seeing the inaccuracies.

And rather than admit it, you keep flogging the horse.

You’re supposed to collect the evidence and then draw the conclusion. Not make your conclusion and then seek the evidence. .

Rather than address the points in the arguments you're just making proclamations. Too much bluster and not enough substance.

It has been widely acknowledged (Academy Award nomination, etc) that the film had a great sense of atmosphere and set design. The fact that the old style theater in the film didn't exist in London at the time has not been a problem for the great majority of viewers. It was congruent enough with the film's overall atmosphere to either not be noticed or not matter. For Tom Moore that "error" apparently made the film unpalatable. That's fine, since everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But his subsequent argument of equating that relatively minor discrepancy to putting Swiss mountains and milkmaids on skis in a classic western was just silly. Just because an artwork has discrepancies and inaccuracies (they all do) doesn't mean they're all at the same level. It's actually a lot like a magic trick in that way. As Vernon (I think) said, every trick has a discrepancy. But the trick can succeed as long as the audience doesn't notice or focus on it.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Tom Moore » March 24th, 2021, 4:15 am

Bob Coyne wrote:I just checked and The Prestige received an Academy Award nomination for best Art Direction (art director and set director). Plus best art direction nominations at various other awards venues. I think that illustrates the relative unimportance of any quibbles about the accuracy of certain period design choices. The film did a great job of establishing a visual atmosphere and sense of mystery within a fictionalized steampunk victorian era setting and was recognized for it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/awards


Ah yes, a 20th century American award, judged and voted for by people who almost exclusively have experience of mid-20th century American theatres is undoubtedly the unquestionable arbiter of accuracy and authenticity.

Bob, since you’re so keen to validate your opinion based on “the masses” rather than engage in reason or logic let’s play the game by your own rules. The prestige grossed just $5m in the uk & Italy, barely $1.5m in France, Germany and Spain - combined these countries are a bigger market than continental US. By any metric the film was a flop in Europe (other Nolan films earn that much in the first week normally) - so the market where people do know what theatres and performers and “world” illustrated in the film should look and feel like clearly didn’t connect with or find the film believable enough to recommend that their friends see it.
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Bob Coyne » March 24th, 2021, 10:31 am

Tom Moore wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:I just checked and The Prestige received an Academy Award nomination for best Art Direction (art director and set director). Plus best art direction nominations at various other awards venues. I think that illustrates the relative unimportance of any quibbles about the accuracy of certain period design choices. The film did a great job of establishing a visual atmosphere and sense of mystery within a fictionalized steampunk victorian era setting and was recognized for it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/awards


Ah yes, a 20th century American award, judged and voted for by people who almost exclusively have experience of mid-20th century American theatres is undoubtedly the unquestionable arbiter of accuracy and authenticity.

Bob, since you’re so keen to validate your opinion based on “the masses” rather than engage in reason or logic let’s play the game by your own rules. The prestige grossed just $5m in the uk & Italy, barely $1.5m in France, Germany and Spain - combined these countries are a bigger market than continental US. By any metric the film was a flop in Europe (other Nolan films earn that much in the first week normally) - so the market where people do know what theatres and performers and “world” illustrated in the film should look and feel like clearly didn’t connect with or find the film believable enough to recommend that their friends see it.

I have no argument with the assertion that the film takes certain liberties with accuracy. The London theater mismatch is not the only one. There's also the pledge/turn/prestige conceit, inaccuracies with how Tesla was portrayed, various plot holes, etc. I'm simply saying that the theater mismatch doesn't matter since the film was very successful (including critical acclaim) at conveying the atmosphere it wanted. Audiences either don't notice or don't care about the inconsistencies as long as it fits in the film's steampunk-flavored old world atmosphere. Your over-the-top example where you equate it to putting Swiss milkmaids on skis into a classic western shows that perhaps you're an outlier in that regard.

Whether the film did well or not in Europe could be due to any number of factors such as marketing, name recognition, etc. Nolan's huge grossing films are his more recent ones after he made it big and/or for highly promoted mass-appeal subjects like in the Dark Knight. His earlier quirkier films are in-line with the Prestige. For example, Memento (2000) earned $25 in the US and $40M globally. Insomnia (2002) earned $67M in the US and $114 globally. The Prestige (2006) earned $53 in the US and $110M globally. The idea that a mismatch for one old style theater for another was a big problem for audiences in Europe is an unfounded supposition.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby AJM » March 24th, 2021, 11:21 am

I’m a movie fan and have thoroughly enjoyed all the films and TV shows directed, written and produced by both Nolan brothers.

I think the only Christopher Nolan film I’ve not seen as yet is Dunkirk.

I enjoyed The Prestige just as much as the others and, as a ‘European viewer’, I didn’t find it at all jarring that the theatres depicted bore no resemblance to European houses of the time. And I’ve certainly visited a number of them.

It possibly depends on how one ‘comes’ to the film - as a movie fan or as a magician picking over the inaccuracies. I expect the movie was ‘greenlit’ on the basis of its appeal to the targeted audience - and it would certainly not have been produced if it was aimed at magicians only.

Having said that my enjoyment of the film would have been enhanced no end if they had put Scarlet Johansson in a milkmaid’s costume in a few scenes. :D

I’m not a big fan of Christian Bale as he usually appears in films wearing some ludicrous and obviously fake beards, moustaches and wigs. And The Prestige is just one example of many.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Zig Zagger » March 24th, 2021, 11:59 am

A mildly interesting, sidetracked thread...

Anything else on The Great Vandy, by any chance? :D
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Joe Lyons » March 24th, 2021, 12:01 pm

I remember enjoying The Prestige, though the d*ckiness of the characters (and lack of milkmaid’s costume) did turn me off. It was still a good study on obsession.

I usually find something to enjoy about any magic movies whether it's the magic, drama or something else.

I do remember enjoying The Illusionist more, which came out the same year.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Tom Moore » March 24th, 2021, 12:03 pm

I assume you will be quitting your magic career and selling your services to the hollywood studios since you suggest you have completely cracked the code of what does and does not make a film a success?

Do you have any proof at all (other than your own thoughts and awards from people equally lacking any experience in the matter) that your claim that non-US audiences were not put off at all by the huge errors in portrayal of the performance venues?

Just to keep this thread vaguely educational - the venues where magicians performed in the time period of this film looked like https://d3s3zh7icgjwgd.cloudfront.net/A ... 1_Main.gif

Whereas this is what The Prestige thinks is an accurate representation http://www.losangelestheatre.com/img/lo ... um-004.jpg

The places where jobbing stage magicians (and all variety performers performed) were the music hall circuit - bars & public houses with a large hall bolted on the back, they were rowdy places with straw on the floor and the audience at stalls level (Orchestra level in American terminology) were sat on stools around tables; as much interested in the alcohol they were drinking and the prostitutes plying their trade around the sides of the hall as they were the entertainment on stage - from memory there's one scene in the film that hits of such a performing venue but portrays it as an exception and failure for a performer when in actual fact that WAS the main performance circuit. For the time period this film in set in they were also on the decline as the "variety circuit" took over using what was essentially a more "posh" version of the music halls; but still the stalls were stalls where the lowest class sat and drank, the audience were on benches & bawdy, the venues were physically small with 4 balconies being the common configuration with an audience virtually on top of the stage. One doesn't need to be a theatre or variety historian to know this because these venues exist today and are usually the "main" theatre in any European city; even modern built venues tend to follow this layout template and any European shown a picture of an American theatre and a European theatre could easily spot the difference because the size, layout, configurations are all so wildly different. It is EXACTLY as jarring and inauthentic (note my deliberate use of that word) as filming a western in the Swiss alps and arguing with any American viewer bought up on traditional westerns that they are completely wrong because sticking hats and ranch signs on everything makes it look close enough and is entirely believable in the world of the film.

For anyone interested in the British "music hall" world I heartily recommend Michael Grade's "the story of the music hall" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU2rRyc0X8Q and his follow up "The story of Variety" they are both exceptionally well researched documentaries with access to some remarkable venues and historians.
Whereas in the UK the music hall style directly evolved into the variety circuit in most of Europe the two industries actually ran in parallel; early European music hall venues survived the invention of variety circuit and evolved into the cabaret venues that still exist today - From the famous ones like Les Follies Bergere & Moulin Rouges, to the less well known but equally opulent cabaret showrooms that exist in towns and cities across Europe to this day.

...can you tell I've spent most of lockdown researching for a music hall show?
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Tom Moore » March 24th, 2021, 12:05 pm

I’m not a big fan of Christian Bale as he usually appears in films wearing some ludicrous and obviously fake beards, moustaches and wigs. And The Prestige is just one example of many.

I believe there's a deleted scene where Christian Bale wore the milkmaid costume but it was cut along with the rest of the Yodelling subplot :-p
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby AJM » March 24th, 2021, 12:12 pm

Tom

I greatly appreciate your contributions to this Forum and I always look forward to your insights on all things magic related.

My post outlined my opinion on the topic at hand and it was just that - an opinion. I had no expectation, nor do I care, that anyone would agree or disagree with it.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Leo Garet » March 24th, 2021, 12:28 pm

I bow low to the knowledge on display on this thread, though I can't get past the William Godman comment; something to the effect that in Hollywood nobody knows anything. It varies slightly depending on the source, and I don't have the relevant book anymore.

If memory serves, and these days it usually doesn't, the Chief Genii knows something about Mister Goldman. The one-handed shuffle at least.

I watched the film on TV and didn't switch off, but I didn't think it was up to much. Still don't. And much like AJM, when stating my opinion, I'm not bothered whether people agree with me, or not.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Bill Mullins » March 24th, 2021, 12:41 pm

Any time a movie comes close to real life, it's an accident. Compare a photo of Julia Roberts to one of Erin Brockovich.

If you want to start picking at inaccuracies in The Prestige, start with dentition. They've all got good teeth. Do you think that's an accurate portrayal of 19th century England?

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Leo Garet » March 24th, 2021, 12:50 pm

Unless it's relevant to the character, very few people in films have bad, or even discoloured, teeth. Who knows what Michael Caine's teeth are like these days, but his off-white fillings were on view in a couple of scenes in "Zulu".

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby AJM » March 24th, 2021, 12:57 pm

Bill

You’re being ‘dentition-ist’ - I take offence at this on behalf of all people with poor dentistry.

You are hereby ‘cancelled’.

Andrew

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Leo Garet » March 24th, 2021, 1:23 pm

See "Marathon Man" for an expert Dentist at work.

Or "Seinfeld" if you want to see a rabid dentite in action. The Kramer-nearly-gets-married episode with Robert Wagner.

Hey ho. ;)

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Joe Lyons » March 24th, 2021, 1:33 pm

Leo Garet wrote:See "Marathon Man" for an expert Dentist at work.

Written by Goldman, who knew everything.

What was this thread about?

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 24th, 2021, 2:04 pm

Yikes! Please return to your corners.
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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Leo Garet » March 24th, 2021, 2:28 pm

Joe Lyons wrote:
Leo Garet wrote:See "Marathon Man" for an expert Dentist at work.

Written by Goldman, who knew everything.

What was this thread about?


Written by Goldman. Yup, I think I knew that. Meanwhile:

I've just paid a surprise visit back to chapter one. Paul Vandy gets a mention, but as soon as "The Prestige" rolled in, and it didn't take long.....Oops. Or to quote the Chief Genii: Yikes"

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Travis » April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm

There were certainly massive rivalries in the Golden Era. Kellar and Herrmann, for instance. And they also would steal one another’s stagehands/illusion builders - in this case, the magician William Robinson, aka Chung Ling Soo.

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Re: Turn of the 20th century stage magician historians?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 21st, 2021, 9:53 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:I prefer Christopher Priest as Science-fiction writer, in particular his The Inverted World (I don't know if it's the real title in english. I have translated the French Title: Le Monde Inverti)
The Inverted World it is. Tempting to ask you about his Jules Verne story. haha. :) The Prestige was more about storytelling and writing. Half truths told to the reader, half-stories, half lives... A writer's witticism at the expense of his characters.

Back to our OP - sorry we seem to invent our history as needed. The Great Vandy likely left a trail of showbiz materials, theater cards, and perhaps some reviews. @Bill Mullins ?? Best of luck with your project.
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