Conflict in Magic?

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Joe Mckay
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Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 1st, 2020, 7:34 pm

What do people mean whey talk about creating conflict in magic for dramatical purposes?

I will give my analysis so that others who know more than me can see if I am on the right track.

Drama requires action.

The action has to be motivated by somebody wanting something.

Wanting something is the source of the conflict.

And that creates the reason for you being on stage in the first place.

-----------------------------

British comedy has always being based around the concept of men who have been defeated by life, yet still feel they are unjustly overlooked.

Tony Hancock.

Steptoe and Son.

Basil Fawlty.

Victor Meldrew.

Alan Partridge.

David Brent.

Peep Show.

So with that in mind - a possible conceit for a magic show would be about an embittered kid's magician who was kicked out of the International Brotherhood of Magicians because his magic was too offensive. So the conceit is that the magician is angry at the world and wants to prove why he should be re-admitted to the International Brotherhood of Magicians.

That is the sort of structure that appeals to my sense of humour. There is nothing funnier than somebody going mad over an inconsequential matter.

Also - the conflict gives you something to bounce off. It gives you something to react against in order to communicate the worldview of the character you are portraying. By showing why you are angry - you provide an insight into the type of person you are.

I have read a lot of books about writing by David Mamet. So maybe I am mixing up his theories with stuff I have read in magic books.

I would be curious if others think I am on the right track? Often I see discussions of conflict in magic in terms of Magician in Trouble type tricks. But to me that does not explore the concept deeply enough.

Joe

PS I have literally forgotten how to use commas. So apologies if my grammar is all messed up.

Jack Shalom
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Jack Shalom » July 1st, 2020, 10:51 pm

I think you're on the right track if you're thinking about the conflict in the larger story of the performer's character, Joe.

There's also the conflict that you want in the performance of any given effect. The dramatic unfolding of the magical moment. It helps to think of obstacles, and what you must do as a magician to overcome the obstacle. Houdini trying to overcome the obstacle of his chains for example, is the conflict within the effect; Houdini trying to overcome his limitations as a man is part of the conflict of his character.

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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 1st, 2020, 10:54 pm

Joe, consider a magician who sincerely tries to perform one magic effect but a better one happens instead. :D

Brad Henderson
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Brad Henderson » July 1st, 2020, 11:23 pm

Man versus nature. Man v supernatural . Man versus himself. Man v others.

There are the conflicts inherent in magic and most magic presentational frames. In varying combinations and degrees

Hannes Freytag
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Hannes Freytag » July 2nd, 2020, 2:21 am

There is a very good essay by Pepe Carroll in his book 52 Lovers Vol 1. That analyses conflicts in magic. One of the best essays in magic.
Hannes

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » July 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am

I will check out the essay.

Cheers!

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 6th, 2020, 3:47 pm

There is so much that could be said or written on this topic. I have found that spectators (both adults and kids) do love the magician-in-trouble plot and the magician's ultimate extrication from his/her plight. It is the drama of having to overcome an obstacle coupled with the surprise (and oftentimes humor) that I believe makes these type of routines so appealing. This has long been a hugely successful, tried-and-true formula in movies, TV shows, plays, novels and short stories. Even when the audience knows that the protagonist will emerge triumphant, the denouement is more satisfying when the elements of doubt, uncertainty, vulnerability, trouble, adversity, and yes, conflict, are woven into the fabric of the story. Fans of Hallmark movies, for example (and there are many), know that the love story will ultimately have a happy ending, but it is the conflict, obstacles, mistakes and doubt that are encountered along the way, that makes the ending that much sweeter. In many action movies, the hero will ultimately prevail, good will triumph over evil, and the audience knows this, but how much appeal would the movie have without the conflict and drama?

Examples of routines in the magician-in-trouble genre with which I have had good success over the years include the Magician's Insurance Policy (I like to have it hidden under my close up pad and not bring it out or talk about it until after I "fail"), George Schindler's old (marketed) trick, "Comic Prediction," and the 3 and 1/2 of Clubs. And, oh yes, Triumph, which inherently contains the conflict element. But when working in venues with other magicians, I have even set things up to where i had a magician come up to me mid-trick and tell me I had an important phone call, and while I went to "get it," they and the spectators had a good laugh over the magician impishly shuffling the deck, apparently face-up/face-down. The magician would then engage them in conversation, stalling until my return. The laughs would be even heartier when I returned after a couple minutes, muttering that "whoever it was must have hung up," and watching my expression when I "realized" what had happened to the deck. In those situations, the triumph was extra-triumphant.

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Paco Nagata
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Paco Nagata » July 7th, 2020, 2:32 am

Me too, I love this kind of shows in which the magician is un trouble, but finally overcomes the situation against all odds.
Actually that was one of the things that made me to keep my interest in the art of magic. I noticed that the magician sometimes could be seen as a HERO; a true hero that overcomes a really impossible and unexpected situation. So that, the magic show is not only a magic show, but also a thrilling, intriguing and funny drama.
A magician in trouble is always something special for the spectators.
I'll never forget a Tamariz show I watched on TV when I was 12, in which he had the help of a spectator to cut a handkerchief with a scissors. When the magician did it he could restore the handkerchief, but when the spectator did the same, the handkerchief appeared with a big hole in the centre. The magician looked terrified at it.
People laughed.
Then he tried to make the spectator to restore it along with a lot of jokes.
"Did you really follow my instructions?" "Well, my next instruction is to pay the handkerchief to the owner" ...
After a couple of unsuccessful tries with different magical gestures and words, the magician says that it is his fault because didn't gives the instruction properly. Finally he ask the spectator to try it for the last time with the help of everybody shouting at the same time the magical words.
The magician, resigned, ask the spectator to return the handkerchief (which is folded inside the spectator's hand) to her owner as the magician take some money from his pocket to pay for it (people laugh). But...
When the owner unfold the handkerchief, she see that it is perfectly restored!!
Tamariz explodes! Tah, tah, tah!!
Air violin!!
I analysed the show second by second and performed it in the Christmas party for my relatives that same year. It was great!
"The Passion of an Amateur Card Magician"
https://bit.ly/2lXdO2O
"La pasion de un cartómago aficionado"
https://bit.ly/2kkjpjn

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » December 11th, 2020, 2:36 am

I am thinking of reading a book called Impro by Keith Johnstone. It is a famous book and I believe he is also considered the "founder" of improv theatre. I saw him give a TED talk once as well - interesting guy.

I was checking out some book reviews, and Keith seems to have some interesting observations about the role of "status" in drama. It seems all drama comes down to people of different statuses interacting with each other. Apparently this analysis is the secret to understanding 'Waiting For Godot' by Samuel Beckett. The play has no plot - instead it is a study in watching people of differents statuses interact. I guess you could add as well that there is nothing more high status than keeping people waiitng (which would account for the character of Godot).

Apparently it was this insight into the work of Samuel Beckett that later became a fundamental part of how Keith Johnstone thought about improv theatre.

I am a big fan of Jerry Sadowitz. He is somebody who has always deliberately tried to cast himself as a "low status" performer. Whereas performers like Penn & Teller or Ricky Jay cast themselves as "high status".

I just wanted to make this post, since it may go some way to answering the question I started this thread with. How do you create conflict in magic? I wonder if the initial answer is to decide if you are going to be a high status character or a low status character? My sense is that Mac King, The Amazing Johnathan and David Williamson are all examples of "low status" characters.

It seems this is the most fundamental decision of all. And it is this conflict between you and the audience (are they looking up to you or down on you?) that subtly shapes the ensuing drama. I guess it is about commuicating the role of the audience in this two-handed drama. Without that being made clear up front - the rest of the drama cannot follow on from it.

With the above in mind - this could be why a lot of performances in comedy and magic feel flat. It is because the performer has not decided (or successfully communicated) whether or not he is a low status or high status performer? If the performer is communicating that he is the same status as the audience, then it feels less like a drama and more like a talk. Information is being transmitted just the same. But it is not clear what point of view the audience should adopt when interpreting it, without first communicating whether or not you are a high status or low status performer.

One other thing. I prefer the idea of improvising my performances in magic. Sure - I will still do a lot of prep work and thinking about what I will say. But in my heart - I prefer the idea of "writing on the stage". I just feel there is something cold about scripts (maybe this is an aspie thing?). I wonder if I focus on clearly communicating whether I am high or low status - then that will create the foundation that will allow for a more successful attempt at improvising my way through a routine?

Has anyone else read this book? Apparently it is one of those cult books that can shape how you think about life itself as well.

My sense is that modern comedy is more complex than simply watching a high or low status character. Instead it is about a low-status character who deludes himself into thinking he is high-status. And it is in watching the character struggle with these delusions that forms the basis of a lot of modern comedy (see Alan Partridge, Peep Show, Job in Arrested Development and David Brent/Michael Scott).

Or it could be a high-status character who deludes himself into thinking he is low-status, since he is tragically unable to achieve peace of mind by recognisiing his talents and good fortune. The comedy character - Jonathan Pie - would be a good example of this.

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » December 11th, 2020, 3:00 am

The successful completion of a magic trick is a "high status" move. So - if you are a "low status" character - there must be some goal you are trying to achieve that is more important to you than simply fooling people. And by failing in that bigger goal - you can bury your "high status" actions inside a larger delusion that makes you feel "low status".

I think in my case it would be a pathetic pseudo-intellectual who is obsessed with being considered philosophical, who is also on the edge of an existential crisis - who is trying to use magic to explore the meaning of life. And with each successful completion of a trick - it slowly dawns on him he is just a hack magician and not the great intellect that he wishes to be perceived as. And that the philosophy he is trying to teach through the use of magic is nothing but insipid nonsense. As such - the conclusion of each trick is a further nail in the coffin of his real goal. The goal of being considered a great intellectual.

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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Jack Shalom » December 11th, 2020, 9:08 am

The observation about low vs high status as being a source of comedy I think is a really good one.

In comedy, there is often one goal being pursued obsessively, being frustrated each time by some obstacle; the performer returns each time to the task with a newer, even more absurd approach.

Here's Dennis Hemphill as Eliot the Hawk, just a great creation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyV7n4WstMY

But much as I love this clip, it's comedy, not magic.

In magic, magician-in-trouble must eventually win. Otherwise the audience feels betrayed. You want them to identify with you as the low status character, and then take them along with you in your journey towards victory. If it's just about you, it's selfish as a performer.

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » December 11th, 2020, 2:01 pm

My goal is to perform real magic. Strong magic. This is not about playing a spoof magician who messes things up.

I am just looking to couch the magic in a "low status" character who still loses even when he wins. By which I mean - because he is obsessed with acheiving a non-magic goal - he does not feel any increase in "status" as a result of the successful magic.

So - that would provide an internal conflict. And the fact that I am a lower status character than the audience would provide the external conflict since they would - metaphorically speaking - be looking down on me, and judging my actions through that lens.

I will go away and see if I can make this work.

My sense with "art" is this. There is ultimately only one answer that truly works for you. You have to discover that answer. And you have no control over what that answer will be. Mac King was always doomed to be Mac King on stage. The same with David Williamson or Ricky Jay.

When you discover something truly authentic inside of you that might work as a character on stage - you, in a sense, have no choice in who that character will be. It is not a creation. It is a discovery. As such - you are sometimes lumbered with a discovery that might have some problems. I am sure The Amazing Johnathan was aware that his "character" on stage would close doors to him, since it was so controversial by traditional magic standards. But it was still better to be true to that voice (no matter how extreme the results might be), than to water it down and try and communicate something that was inauthentic.

So - yeah - people might end up criticising some of the artistic decisions I make. But - I literally have no choice in the matter. I am forced down this path, if this path is the one that feels the most truly authentic.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 11th, 2020, 3:09 pm

Joe Wrote: "My sense with 'art' is this. There is ultimately only one answer that truly works for you. You have to discover that answer. And you have no control over what that answer will be. Mac King was always doomed to be Mac King on stage. The same with David Williamson or Ricky Jay."

I have believed for a long time that magic is a path to self-discovery. I think that where things become problematical for magicians, performance-wise (and I am not pointing the finger, as I have dealt with this myself), is when they try to be someone or something other than who they truly are. This was a recurrent theme throughout Eugene Burger's writings (admonishing against being the "generic magician"). One of my favorite movies of all time is Bagger Vance. It is so much more than a movie about Golf. The essence of it is when Bagger (Will Smith) tells Junuh (Matt Damon), who is struggling mightily with his golf swing and his life: "Yep… Inside each and every one of us is one true authentic swing… Somethin’ we was born with… Somethin’ that’s ours and ours alone…"

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » December 11th, 2020, 9:30 pm

Spike Lee has an interesting critique of the trope used in the movie, The Legend of Bagger Vance.

That said - I have never seen the movie. I came across his critique because I was researching a different movie trope - The Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Pixie_Dream_Girl

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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Max Maven » December 11th, 2020, 11:15 pm

While Keith Johnstone’s work on improv is important, I feel the work of Viola Spolin (whose work predated Johnstone’s by about two decades) is better.

Magic shares similarities with group improv comedy, but the rules are different. Good improv teamwork requires sharing the narrative. A magician interacting with a spectator, even in a greatly improvisational framework, will never lose control of the narrative.

Joe Mckay
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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby Joe Mckay » December 11th, 2020, 11:35 pm

That is brilliant - thanks for the reference!

I will go look up her work.

Any ideas I have are worthless until I get a chance to perform them. So, I appreciate the forbearance of those posters on here with more performing experience than I could ever hope to attain.

Thanks again!

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Re: Conflict in Magic?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 12th, 2020, 8:48 am

Joe Mckay wrote: My sense with "art" is this. There is ultimately only one answer that truly works for you. You have to discover that answer. And you have no control over what that answer will be...So - yeah - people might end up criticising some of the artistic decisions I make. But - I litergenally have no choice in the matter. I am forced down this path, if this path is the one that feels the most truly authentic.


If "art" comes down to there being "only one answer," and one is "forced" down that path, how is it possible to make "artistic decisions"?


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