International Women’s Day 2020

[Brad Henderson]

Just booking female magicians is NOT the solution.

And yet, everyone who actually have tried it says otherwise.

Earlier you said:
especially if the women booked are unheard of or fail to deliver a performance worthy of paying the ticket price.
You seem convinced that it would be hugely different than if the guy booked are unheard of or fail to deliver a performance worthy of paying the ticket price - when there's no rational reason for that assumption.

Please take the time to read what I wrote and actually comment on that, please:

Do people usually pay to go to conventions to see people - regardless of their gender - who they have never heard of?

No - people don’t pay to go to conferences to see unknowns or people they have seen too many times before. And both are very relevant when it comes to the economics of booking a financially successful convention.

[Brad Henderson]

but I don’t think much progress has been made regarding the issue of non male participation.

Things are happening there too. So far, mostly among the attendees. There's a few youtube channels being watched, people who might be ready to be gambled on in 2-3 years.

And that speaks to magic in the commercial marketplace and not in our insular world of conferences.

Again - a point I have made here previously.

If you aren’t going to bother reading what I wrote. - then stop wasting my time.

[Brad Henderson]

But let’s stick to the issue: exactly how has your internet posting here Tom Stone made a positive change in the quest for more equitable participation of women in magic conventions?

[Tom Stone]

And that speaks to magic in the commercial marketplace and not in our insular world of conferences.

Yes, I talked about conferences.

Yes, I have commented on what you've written.

No, people do go to conventions to see magicians they've never seen before.

If you want to "stick to the issue", shouldn't you then at least take a glance to the heading of this whole thread? But ok. My efforts, since the autumn 2015, in changing the status quo have not been via internet postings.

[McKitterick]

But let’s stick to the issue: exactly how has your internet posting here Tom Stone made a positive change in the quest for more equitable participation of women in magic conventions?

If we can agree that "Knowing there is a problem is the first step to recovery" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb6i8N1d2xY - then this thread has been more than worthwhile simply by reminding us of the issue. And if there is just one person who has been made aware for the first time that there is a problem ... Well then, Hallelujah!

If that's not enough though, there is certainly some food for thought in the examples of Tom's original post on a few ways in which the issue could be addressed. All of which of course depend on our willingness to address the issue. In particular our willingness to accept his challenge:

During the last decade, there have been a huge increase in the emergence of female magicians. So, evidently, we are doing at least some things right. Would be nice to pinpoint those things and do more of it.

That strikes me as a rather sensible approach.

[performer]

"especially if the women booked are unheard of or fail to deliver a performance worthy of paying the ticket price."

I think the women are far more likely to deliver a "performance worthy of paying the ticket price" than the men are!

[Brad Henderson]

If we can agree that "Knowing there is a problem is the first step to recovery" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb6i8N1d2xY - then this thread has been more than worthwhile simply by reminding us of the issue. And if there is just one person who has been made aware for the first time that there is a problem ... Well then, Hallelujah!

If that's not enough though, there is certainly some food for thought in the examples of Tom's original post on a few ways in which the issue could be addressed. All of which of course depend on our willingness to address the issue. In particular our willingness to accept his challenge:

Except Awareness was raised last week and a threat. And two weeks before that on Facebook. And three weeks before that. And for weeks before that. Nothing will ever get done.

If you want to see booking changed at Blackpool, for example, then you have to reach out to the person in charge of booking blackpool. And that person Has to be convinced that changing or not changing is going to affect their bottom line. Bitching on the Internet isn’t going to do that.

As Richard said in a Facebook post, magicians only want to do three things at a convention, spend money in a dealers room, hang out with friends, and see some magic. This is why magic conventions have been able to survive without acting on these changes, because most magicians don’t care for the most part - as long as they get to do spend some money, hang with friends, and see some magic.

If you want change then you have to Communicate that desire to the people who are making decisions, and those aren’t the ones usually reading your Facebook posts. Likewise you have to convince them that they will suffer negatively by not changing, and benefit benefit positively by changing. That means magicians have to vote with their pocketbooks.

Will we?

I’m not convinced that we would. If a convention published a list of only stellar male magicians tomorrow I don’t think they would have a single road block to getting registrants - or meet any objection from other male magicians if they were asked to be added to the line up.

As I asked, what has the post which led this exchange accomplished exactly?

Are we any more aware of the problem then we were three weeks ago during the blackpool thread about the same issue? Has progress been made since that thread, from that thread? (Though i believe the blackpool thread here had a better chance of having an effect than Facebook posts which are seen largely only by people within the posters personal bubble - and I even congratulated Tom Moore for speaking up about it when others wouldn’t).

I’m all in favor of greater representation of non male magicians in magic - and resent when some insecure people feel the need to represent otherwise - but I also want real progress and real solutions, not just tokenism, favoritism, and back patting.

I don’t believe complex problems have simple solutions - and just booking more women does not resolve issues surrounding attitudes toward female magicians. If you want positive change then finding the right solutions is a critical step. Issues of sex/gender are complex and people all over the world still struggle with them. Do we really believe we have the answer?!?!

Is it outrageous to suggest that attempting to make progress will require more than a few Facebook/internet posts? That there aren’t much deeper issues and complex solutions which transcend merely booking more females?

Here’s one idea: the next time you see a lineup of Magicians advertised that you feel does not have an equitable representation of females, send a letter to the convention booker and Let them know that you will not be attending unless they change their booking policies. Or, if you’re on a lineup of all Male Magicians, refuse to participate unless changes are made.

If you truly cared about the issue, these are very simple tasks that people can take personally, that could possibly make a difference. And while That might get more women booked, but I contend there’s far greater work still to be done before we truly have equality among the sexes and magic.

[Tom Stone]

If you want to see booking changed at Blackpool, for example, then you have to reach out to the person in charge of booking blackpool. And that person Has to be convinced that changing or not changing is going to affect their bottom line. Bitching on the Internet isn’t going to do that.

The formal name of the fallacy that makes Cancelling work is "Affirming a disjunct".
It is the instinctive & flawed assumption that if one possibility is true, then all the others are false.
To speak Boolean; is very easy to think OR is XOR.

Are you sure your post will age well?

[Brad Henderson]

nope

Not what I wrote. Analyze my claim, not what you want it to be, but what I actually said.

Facebook bitching doesn’t work regardless of any other options, statements, claims, or assumptions.

It may make you feel good, but that’s about it.

Real change takes more than woke posts.

And yes. That will remain true forever.

[Tom Stone]

Facebook bitching doesn’t work regardless of any other options, statements, claims, or assumptions.

And if there is a noticeable change when the next year's program is announced, then it is unrelated to people voicing their opinion on social media?

Real change takes more than woke posts.
You seem convinced that "woke posts" make all other forms of contact impossible.

[Bill Mullins]

No - people don’t pay to go to conferences to see unknowns or people they have seen too many times before. And both are very relevant when it comes to the economics of booking a financially successful convention.

There are lots of reasons why I pick a particular convention to go to. As far as line-ups of performers go, the most appealing to me would be a combination of performers whom I have seen before, and enjoyed, and performers whom I haven't see before, but have a good reputation. Whether or not they are male or female makes no difference.

For example, while I met Derek DelGaudio a couple of times, I've never seen him perform. Any convention he would appear at would be one I'd want to go to. Carisa Hendrix has a good reputation; I'd want to see her. I've seen Mac King do his show twice in the last couple of years, and I'd return to it any time possible.

OTOH, consider Tom's Conjuring Workshop of last year. If the faculty of it were the performers at a magic convention, I might give it a pass in lieu of a different convention. Tom is the only participant whose work I am familiar with. I don't know anything about the others, except that Tom works with them (which, I suppose, is an endorsement). The fact that they are Swedish, or men, or women, is irrelevant. It's that I don't know about them.

Most conventions also have other performers mixed in with the "names", and in the case of the well-run ones, the management will have found good unknowns, or magicians on the way up, whose work is good and enjoyable. It's always nice to see a great show by a magician who I never heard of. I wasn't really familiar with Nick Difatte or Mario the Maker before MagiFest in 2018, and they was great.

[Zig Zagger]

Bitching on the Internet isn’t going to do

I don't know, this sounds like a(nother) very apodictic statement to me.

After all, what would be the point then in discussing any matter of performing magic "in theoretical terms only" in forums, magazines, or books?
Why bother, why waste the time?

This shouldn't be about either--or. And not about bitching fishwives. Before any action, there's usually thoughts and words. And, ideally, an enlightened and respectful exchange of thoughts, ideas, and possible solutions. Writing to bookers surely is one. But there must be a dozen more, no?

[Tom Stone]

If the faculty of it were the performers at a magic convention, I might give it a pass in lieu of a different convention. Tom is the only participant whose work I am familiar with.

Johan Danielsson on Propmaking was a last minute panic replacement for Tim Star who just had suffered an injury. While Johan's a good leather worker, he knows nothing about magic, and therefore it is very reasonable that the name is unfamiliar to you.
Tim Star healed up well, and is part of the 2020 workshops.

[Brad Henderson]

Facebook bitching doesn’t work regardless of any other options, statements, claims, or assumptions.

And if there is a noticeable change when the next year's program is announced, then it is unrelated to people voicing their opinion on social media?

Real change takes more than woke posts.
You seem convinced that "woke posts" make all other forms of contact impossible.

Correlation does not equal causation.

If you recall in your Facebook thread I encouraged you to contact the blackpool bookers. I even gave you their email and a sample letter to send.

You seemed very reluctant. I even Suggested a post on the Genii forum about blackpool specifically would more likely be seen by people who have the power to make these changes. Tom moore did that.

Arguing among people who already agree gets nothing done - other than make ourselves feel good.

If we want magic conventions to book a more equitable number of female magicians, then we need to contact those people who book conventions and convince them it will be worth their time to do so. Though that is only one step on the path toward true equality among the sexes in magic.

You may be content hoping someone will see bitch session and care enough to do something.

I’m not convinced it is the most effective path.

[Tom Stone]

If you recall in your Facebook thread I encouraged you to contact the blackpool bookers. I even gave you their email and a sample letter to send.

... and I still wonder why you didn't send it yourself, since you went through the trouble of writing it, and since you were so convinced that it would have the desired effect.
So far, I have not seen you yourself follow any of the advice that you demand that others must follow.

[performer]

I am trying to imagine my reaction if I was in charge of booking entertainers at a convention if I got a letter like that. I would probably be so annoyed that I would unwisely send a letter back telling the sender to go and play in the traffic and enclose the original letter torn into pieces.
Of course if I calmed down I would probably not reply. If I REALLY calmed down and tried the sweetness and light approach I would send a letter back thanking the sender for the suggestion and would take it under consideration and of course do nothing at all. I might even ask the sender if he had any suggestions as to who I would book and either take him up on the matter if the suggestion was a good one or if the suggestion mentioned someone who would be better off in the kitchen instead of prancing about on a public stage just ignore it.

I really do think an act should be booked on their talent rather than their gender. I really don't like the idea of booking someone just because they happen to be female. The only criteria I would go on is whether the act is good or not. And there are good female magicians. Come to think of it I have had many people sell svengali decks for me. Oddly enough the two best people happened to be female. Different styles. One was downright aggressive and the other was sweetness and light. However, they both took in good money.

That to me is the bottom line. Results. If they are good then hire them. If they aren't then don't. That should be the only criteria not whether they are male, female or a combination of both.

[Tom Stone]

I really do think an act should be booked on their talent rather than their gender.

The talent is the only thing that matters?

My 5 closest friends all are talented, so you think it is a wise booking strategy that I always book the same 5 people, year after year, event after event? For me to book anyone else, outside those 5 talented friends, I would need to bring other considerations than talent into the picture.

I really don't like the idea of booking someone just because they happen to be female.
Not sure why that would be worse than booking someone just because they happen to be male.

[performer]

Law of averages. Obviously if there are male magicians than female those are more likely to get booked. I wouldn't really care one way or the other whether they were male or female. It wouldn't even cross my mind. All that I would be concerned with is whether they are any good or not.

Anyway this might interest you:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ns/274099/

[Brad Henderson]

If you recall in your Facebook thread I encouraged you to contact the blackpool bookers. I even gave you their email and a sample letter to send.

... and I still wonder why you didn't send it yourself, since you went through the trouble of writing it, and since you were so convinced that it would have the desired effect.
So far, I have not seen you yourself follow any of the advice that you demand that others must follow.

Well - because I wasn’t the one who was bitching about it. I’m not a world famous magician whose clout would get my email noticed.

You’re the one who was so incensed about it that you were inspired to go to Facebook and rant. Not I.

But I have been working on something. Something that may actively help many people make real steps forward in the issue. Had a phone call about it last night. If it happens, you’ll know about it.

Sadly, it will take people more powerful than I to make it so. But they are interested and we are moving forward.

I’ll be sure to comment about it next time you are complaining about the same thing.

[Jack Shalom]

Arguing among people who already agree...

Evidently not.

[Brad Henderson]

Arguing among people who already agree...

Evidently not.

Was referring specifically to the use of Facebook which is designed to present to us information we already agree with.

[Brad Jeffers]

It would be interesting if someone would organize a magic convention that had only women performers and lecturers.

[performer]

Didn't Frances Marshall do that once or am I imagining it? I swear I read it somewhere.

[Bill Mullins]

The Magigals (weren't they an offshoot of PCAM?) had several female get-togethers.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Found this fascinating (well, fascinating to me, anyway) article in my online travels. Those travels have been significantly incentivized by this thread. Obviously there are differences between men and women other than anatomical. But "different" from men does not mean "not equal" to men -- any more than men being different from women means men are not equal to women. And just think what a boring world this would be if women were just like men in terms of their thinking, their perspectives, expression of emotion, etc. This, of course, is not to suggest that there are not commonalities shared by the sexes. When I read this article, it not only gave me more insight than I believe I had before, but struck me as being very useful for anyone (man or woman) who is involved in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and not just romantic, but friendship or professional, as well.
https://www.scienceofpeople.com/gender-differences/

[Richard Kaufman]

It would be interesting if someone would organize a magic convention that had only women performers and lecturers.

It was done in the recent past (within the past 10 years).