Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 30th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Of course many kinds of shows can be entertaining. :) And many don't claim to be magic acts.
Is a ventriloquist act using entirely pre-recorded dialogue playback ventriloquism?
Would we claim that a performer standing in front of a video screen moving their hands as images of items move is a juggler?
I suggest that without successful deception it's not (our) magic.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 30th, 2019, 4:38 pm

Allow me to clarify: magic is not exclusively about enjoyment.

One can have a magical experience and not enjoy it at all. In fact for many, magical experiences are unpleasant ones

That doesn’t mean they aren’t magic experiences none the less.

In the world of commercial entertainment, commercial entertainment is about enjoyment regardless of the media.

But magic is bigger than just its use in commercial entertainment.

Likewise, art can have a pleasant factor, but not always. Art can (and should) be provocative and being provoked is not usually pleasant or enjoyable.

So - the magic experience can come in many flavors, but none of these flavors are the magic experience.

I can enjoy looking at my belly button lint circle the drain of my bathtub, but that certainly isn’t magic.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 30th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Peter,

Tom summed it up quite nicely. The magic experience you once had is dead. You have now just a memory of it.

Compare that to anyone who doesn’t know the method, the magic experience lives and grows inside of them to this day

You seem to think that appreciation of technique is an equal replacement.

It isn’t.

You also keep dodging the question: if that XX is doing is so artistic and ethical, why didn’t he ask any of the people from whose work he is profiting to participate ? If educating the masses is his goal, then why not solicit the help of the actual expert?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 30th, 2019, 4:44 pm

Tom Moore wrote:No, no one can take that memory from you but never again for the rest of your life will you be able to experience that feeling again in real time when you see the effect performed.


What do mean when I see the effect performed again? I'm never going to see it performed again, whether I know the secret or not. Nor should repeated viewings of an artistic performance (regardless of the performer) be a measure of my recolecton of the original experience. If that were the case then no one should ever see a movie more than once, lest they give up the experience of seeing it in "real-time" again, and dilute the memory of the first viewing. No matter how many times I see Star Wars (episode IV), it's never going to dilute my memories of seeing it the first time when I was ten.
Tom Moore wrote:The best you will ever have is a fading memory of an emotion you felt decades ago.


All anyone who sees magic (or any other performance) has after decades is "a fading memory of an emotion," regardless of whether the method becomes known to them.

Tom Moore wrote:You have lost something.


You are not in a position to make that call. Only I am.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Moore » July 30th, 2019, 5:19 pm

You’re not in a position to make that call, only the audience is....
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jack Shalom » July 30th, 2019, 6:42 pm

Most of the people on this board watch a magic performance of one kind or another almost every day.

So clearly magic performances can be "consumed" in many ways.

No one is forcing anyone to go to XX's site; so that is a free choice about how that audience member wishes to enjoy the previous night's performance.

It may not be what the performer may have had in mind for them, but it's not entirely up to the performer.

Sometimes I want to know; sometimes I don't.

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Re: Magic Community ethos

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 30th, 2019, 7:47 pm

Okay let's play in the imagination. And play safe - no need for specific details. You get to keep your memories and imagination intact.

Find a pleasant time where and when you first saw a magic trick performed. Something where you knew there must be a trick but no clue as to where or exactly what it is. No clues - just the experience of the effect as presented. Do you have one such memory? Holding that in place for comparison - imagine the possibility of someone else seeing that trick performed. Do you believe this other person could have an experience like the one you remember? If so - hold that memory of what you saw performed in place but move that imaginary person around a little and explore how their experience might change.

Do you think it is as likely that they would have a similar experience to yours if they had seen the trick done on TV the day before?
How about if they are watching from a different angle or lighting situation, and see the mechanics during performance?
How about if they have seen someone set the thing up, rehearsed and practiced using test equipment?

* potentially rough playtime alert *
some folks like riding roller coasters. If you're someone who likes to take the roller coaster ...
Imagine sitting in the car before the ride starts.
Do you imagine the experience of sitting in that same car would be the same if you also knew the ride would not start?
Let's say the ride did as usual and you enjoyed it.
Imagine after enjoying the ride you were offered the car and accepted - the car now all cleaned up and in your den or workroom.
Do you imagine sitting in the car at home would feel the same as when you were in the roller coaster during the ride as it rolled along the track?
* okay - done playing for now *

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 31st, 2019, 9:47 am

Jack,

The problem with your position is it ignores the nature of the internet and YouTube specifically.

When you watch a magic video you are suggested other similar videos which automatically load

So the person who like watching the performance of magic will often have an exposure video put right in front of them - it’s not a case of them seeking it out or looking for a specific experience

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 31st, 2019, 9:53 am

Peter,


When you saw Blackstone the first time you had an experience that included an appreciation of the theatrical abilities of the performer AND a magical experience of the impossible.

Now that you know you ONLY have the appreciation of theatrical abilities.

The magic experience is gone.

You HAVE lost something. You have lost the part of the experience which is unique to the magic art.

The person who saw blackstone and doesn’t know does not JUST have a memory of how they feel. Quite the contrary. Every time they think of that moment that experience of magic is active, Alive and it grows.

Every time they tell the story they reencounter the magic experience. The magic is still present. Actively so.

For you - not anymore.

You HAVE lost something. And to claim otherwise is baseless.

Now tell us this - you’re doing your lovely little show (maybe two tricks into it) and someone asks after one of the tricks, “how did you do that?’

What do you do?

Does it matter is there are other people in the audience? What if there is another group that will be coming as soon as the first show raps?

What if that person is a reporter or a known gossip?

What do you do?

Or what if I put up a YouTube video showing how all the props work, how to build them, and use your name in my SEO so whenever anyone googles you they see your act exposed in full?

You think that will help or hinder your audiences experiences at future shows?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 31st, 2019, 2:11 pm

When I saw Blackstone float the lightbulb, I was fooled. The magical experience occurred for me. That can never be reversed. It happened.

What you are really saying is that a present state of being fooled is objectively a better state to be in than that of having been fooled. I don't agree with that. I think it's subjective. While the goal of having someone be fooled forever is a laudable one, it does not represent an objectively and qualitatively better experience than having been fooled. It just doesn't.

The only scenario which can take the fooling (and therefore the magical experience) away is knowing the secret before the trick is performed. And no one is advocating for that. Certainly not XX. He clearly labels his videos as 'reveals' and they always show the performance first. People get fooled (that cannot be taken away from them), then they learn the secret.

And I don't by the argument that deciding to see a secret ruins future magic experiences. That's a subjective judgment.

Your scenario of my performance being interrupted by spectators asking how it is done is just silly. That's just audience management. I'm not advocating for revealing methods - I'm just saying it's an artistically legitimate option for a performer. Just like it's an artistically legitimate decision for a spectator to learn them if they want (per Jack's point).


As far as legalities and ethics, as I mentioned before, I don't condone anyone using unauthorized video footage of a performer (on TV for example). But note, if the performance is in public, like a street performer, then it doesn't apply. Additionally, I feel that once a trick is put on the market, where hundreds or thousands of copies are sold, the purchaser of the trick has a right to make money off of that same trick (in YouTube views for example) in any way they see fit (with certain performance exceptions indicated by the seller - like no TV performance rights, etc.)

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 31st, 2019, 2:57 pm

As of Berne it was agreed that artworks are not to be copied without appropriate permissions. One could read the text in bold below as direction against teaching other people's tricks.

The minimum standards of protection relate to the works and rights to be protected

As to works, protection must include "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1) of the Convention).

Subject to certain allowed reservations, limitations or exceptions, the following are among the rights that must be recognized as exclusive rights of authorization:

the right to translate,
the right to make adaptations and arrangements of the work,
the right to perform in public dramatic, dramatico-musical and musical works,
the right to recite literary works in public,
the right to communicate to the public the performance of such works,
the right to broadcast (with the possibility that a Contracting State may provide for a mere right to equitable remuneration instead of a right of authorization),
the right to make reproductions in any manner or form (with the possibility that a Contracting State may permit, in certain special cases, reproduction without authorization, provided that the reproduction does not conflict with the normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author; and the possibility that a Contracting State may provide, in the case of sound recordings of musical works, for a right to equitable remuneration),
the right to use the work as a basis for an audiovisual work, and the right to reproduce, distribute, perform in public or communicate to the public that audiovisual work.

Copyright exceptions and limitations

The Berne Convention includes a number of specific copyright exceptions, scattered in several provisions due to the historical reason of Berne negotiations. For example, Article 10(2) permits Berne members to provide for a "teaching exception" within their copyright statutes. The exception is limited to a use for illustration of the subject matter taught and it must be related to teaching activities.[10]

In addition to specific exceptions, the Berne Convention establishes the "three-step test" in Article 9(2), which establishes a framework for member nations to develop their own national exceptions. The three-step test establishes three requirements: that the legislation be limited to certain (1) special cases; (2) that the exception does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work, and (c) that the exception does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 31st, 2019, 6:12 pm

Peter - you have lost something.

That is undeniable.

Whether that’s better or worse depends on if you want to engage in the products magicians artform, or if you want to destroy them.

Now I ask again, Someone asks in the middle of your show how a trick is done - do you tell them?

After all, it’s better for them to know, right?

Right?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 31st, 2019, 6:43 pm

The United States does not subscribe to the Berne Convention.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Bill Mullins » July 31st, 2019, 7:27 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The United States does not subscribe to the Berne Convention.


Are you sure about that?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 31st, 2019, 8:09 pm

Oops, but, "By ratifying the Berne Convention, the United States Congress signaled that it was taking a "minimalist approach to compliance" (emphasis original).[5] Indeed, regarding both moral rights and formalities, the Implementation Act was limited; in short, the "major concession was that the United States finally, reluctantly, did away with copyright formalities".[6] Furthermore, some copyright formalities, like requiring that a copy of the work be "deposited" at the Library of Congress, were preserved.[5]"
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 31st, 2019, 9:32 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Peter - you have lost something.
That is undeniable.



I am no longer fooled. That's correct. I was once fooled. That is also correct.


Brad Henderson wrote:
Now I ask again, Someone asks in the middle of your show how a trick is done - do you tell them?
After all, it’s better for them to know, right?
Right?


This is how you want to intellectually corner me?

I think we would all agree that if a spectator asked: "How did you do that?" in the middle of a show, we would either consider that a rhetorical statement or being rude.

I never said it's always better to know, only that it may be better sometimes for some people.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 31st, 2019, 11:38 pm

I'm off on vacation tomorrow so I won't be adding anything more to this thread (Are those sighs of relief I hear?). Looking back on this conversation I think I've made and defended all the points I wanted to make, while I've also been given plenty to think about. I respect the different opinions of others here and feel content knowing that all of us love magic in the end.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » August 1st, 2019, 9:01 am

Peter

You have lost more than no longer being fooled. The feeling of magic for that trick is now dead.

The problem is you are - like most magicians - focusing on the wrong thing.

It’s not about the fooling, it’s about the feeling.

The fooling is a means to that end. And when the fooling no longer occurs, the magic feeling disappears.

That is undeniable.

Now - it’s unfair to try to rewrite my question and then run away. If you can posit an imaginary person who sees an exposure video and becomes a better appreciator of magic, or a contributor who changes the art, I can set up a situation to consider that actually occurs.

A spectator wants to know how the trick he just saw you performed works.

Do you tell him?

In the middle of the show OR after?

Or what if that person comes up to you who has seen the blackstone lightbulb and asks you how it’s done?

They share how amazed that was and how they think of that as the most magical thing they’ve seen

Do you tell them how it’s done?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 17th, 2019, 3:35 pm

No problems with exposure videos on Amazon.com? Maybe it's the full moon. :cry:
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Stone » August 18th, 2019, 7:00 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:The United States does not subscribe to the Berne Convention.

I know this is a longstanding and strong belief of yours, Richard.

But US actually became a part of the Berne treaty in 1988. Not only that, US have since then have come even closer to the copyright system the rest of the world have, by becoming a part of the TRIPS agreement in 1995, and the WIPO Copyright Treaty in 2002.

(Even the Marrakesh VIP Copyright Treaty was, oddly enough, signed by Trump in 2019. Guess he didn't realize VIP stood for "Visually Impaired Persons" )

So the position for creators in America have gradually become stronger since 1988. US isn't a part of the Rome Convention though, so I guess the situation is a bit worse for performers.

https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/
https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Zig Zagger » September 3rd, 2019, 6:34 pm

Let's get back to Mahdi Gilbert and his initial concern and criticism.

I have wrestled with this topic for quite a while, and here's my (admittedly lenghty) take (too lengthy for this post, actually. You may find the full version over at my blog http://www.zzzauber.com.)

Mahdi,

I respect you as a performer and your dedication, and I think I fully understand your concerns. You deeply care for magic, you see our beloved art in extreme danger through exposure and theft and you want (us) to fight back. I subscribe to all of that. However, we seem to differ significantly on the judgement of the degree of urgency and on reasonable paths to solutions. We may also disagree on what the "real" secret of magic worth protecting is. I will go into that in a minute.

But first, let me state that I feel a bit insulted by your undifferentiated claims that magicians would do nothing against stealing and exposure. Like many others, I am also a magician who does care and act (at least a bit, as you can read here). And I don't want to be driven out of magic by you for not fully sharing your beliefs about the importance of secrets. I could respond with the well-known quote that the definition of insanity (or foolishness) is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." But unlike you in your rage, I am willing to accept dissenting views and concepts.

Here's my view on what's probably helpful and what isn't. To me, it's morally right and understandable, but finally useless and pointless

    - to whine and complain about the world of exposure, copycats and thieves we are living in
    - to set up alliances
    - to write letters to media platforms, advertisers, politicians, regulators, trick pirates, and others
    - to involve lawyers and waste money.

Don't get me wrong. It is an important and worthy cause, and we shouldn't let all of this happen without caring and speaking out against it. But I simply believe these noble actions won't change a thing about theft or exposure. Zero. Nada. None of these bastards will stop their actions, change their mindset, or question their business model. They won't even listen or respond. Thus, this path is a waste of time and energy, and a constant downer. I would rather stay positive and work on a new trick or develop my skill set further in that time and pursue other paths. Sadly, the world's not fair. Fame and money rule. Many people are crooks or trolls or idiots, outside and inside of magic. So be it. Yet life is great and full of opportunities. The same goes for magic.

So what might help instead?

My first point is this: Without taking any blame away from the crooks, we as magicians are partly responsible, too, for the mess we're in. So the problem is not only caused by "them," but also by "us." We need to understand that.

Think about it: For each secret to be exposed, shared, copied or even sold there needs to be a published trick, method, or presentation out there. It's that simple to me. The less magic we as magicians unload into the visible world of YouBurp and other platforms and media, the less can be stolen from us. Granted, this will never bring the damage down to zero, but it could reduce the scale in the future.

By publishing and selling tricks, we are not exactly protecting secrets, are we, Mahdi? No, we are willing to sell them to anybody for a profit (which is legitimate). We have every right to complain about the trick pirates stealing our products and our potential income, but we cannot blame them for uncovering the secret which we published. They don't care for the secret anyway; they care for the business model of selling stolen products cheaper than the originator.

So we may consider publishing less and less tricks and, in particular, videos, be it for free or as a download for a few dollars, it doesn't matter. How about learning to shut up and to share our best stuff, like in the past, only among the worthy, in private sessions or in small pamphlets or obscure offline magazines, but not on YouBurp, Fakebook and Instaharm?!

Along these lines, here are some more things we can do proactively, instead of whining and pointing fingers:

- Let's stop performing all the popular standard tricks that everyone else is also doing. It doesn't set you apart from the herd anyway. And you simply are more endangered through exposure the better the tricks are known.
- When you do use a classic trick, at least make it your own in presentation. The more you personalize it, the more you will disguise it and make it harder to identify the original trick and its secret.
- Go the extra mile. For example, don't use the dealers' standard magic coloring book that says "Magic Coloring Book" on the title when you are living and performing in a non-English speaking country, for God's sake. If you do, you simply deserve being chased by the rugrats and other debunkers!
- Even better: Try to come up with and perform your own material. If a trick has no name, no legacy, and no visibility on social media, it does not exist for exposure! (Except among your live audiences, but that challenge has always been there.) I think you can still fool enough people with a DL, just don't call it your "personal rendition of the time-honored Ambitious Card Trick".
- Which leads straight into the next point: Never ever mention the name of a trick or its creator in public. And if you do, make it all up. The fancier, the better!
- Reduce the challenge aspect in your performance. It's an old saying, but I think it still holds true: The better you are as a performer--likeable, entertaining, on the same side with your audience--, the more personal, poetic or edgy your shtick, the more the audience gets involved and wants you to succeed, and the more the secret/solution dilemma will be pushed into the background. (Yes, this will likely work better with your live audience than with online viewers.)
- Along these lines, stop pretending you have super-psychic powers and other crap like that. Most intelligent people won't believe you anyway, instead they'll think you're a jerk, and you will only nurture their effort to debunk you. And how right they are!
- Bring magic back to one on one, performer and spectator, teacher and pupil. Back into real life, the offline world and private sphere.
- Take a light Penn & Teller approach and do the "overall exposure" yourself in a clever way and profit from it (more on this in my blog).
- The most important point: Shun all people who disrespect magic and its creators, who expose, steal, copy and sell other people's intellectual properties and their secrets. Do not click or like or comment on their stuff or link to or forward their wrong doings. Do not encourage them. Do not interact. Do not even mention their sites or their names. And, of course, do not buy from them. If they pretend to be insiders, excommunicate them from your magic community. They are not part of it anyway. They are not worthy. Ignore them and forget them.

Now you may ask: "But most secrets are already out there and available, if you want to find out. Won't this kill magic in the end?"

Now here's a big point I feel we need to understand better. Yes, magic is a secret art. Painting isn't. Music isn't. Drama isn't. Literature isn't. Juggling isn't. Usually, you pretty much get what you see and hear before you. Not in magic. You get something, but to no small part from what you don't know and don't see. Without secrets, no magic performance and no magic experience. Maybe a scientific demonstration or a Show & Tell ("There's a funny toy company called Tenyo, and they produce pretty sneaky magic stuff for kids. I'll do it for you. Look how clever this little box works!"), but no magic. Agreed!

So?

Jim Steinmeyer once wrote the great line, "Magicians are guarding an empty safe." I interpret its meaning like this: We are jealously guarding our oh so precious secrets. Because we feel important and become "insiders", the more secrets we know. We brag about the other guy's secrets and use them as a currency and a signifier of our level of hierarchy in magic. But, in fact, that safe is pretty empty. Because there are hardly any real secrets left. Or because they are not even worth storing. (Fake Fingers? Mirror boxes? Trick decks? Threads? Come on!) Or because the true core of magic is not that mostly shabby, deplorable feke or fake prop.

But if it's not all about the secret--what is it?

Here's my take: Yes, magic is a secret art. But the secret is not the secret gaff or gimmick or move. To me, the core of magic--the real secret--is deception. And deception is multi-layered. It's a concept, not a tool. It's a painting, not a brush. It's an orchestration. A gaff isn't. Deception creates magic and wonder. The gaff is just one part of the deception, quite often a pretty small one, I'd say. Other parts are routining, presentational frame, performer's style and demeanor, script, stage action, music, lighting, audience interaction, and what not. And people will never grasp that fully by googling a trick or reading someone else's commentary on how it's done in the video. That's why knowing the secret gaff does not equal knowing the magic, neither on the magicians' nor on the spectators' side. Yet more magi seem obsessed with hoarding and guarding secrets than laymen would care to uncover them.

But that infinite number of exposure videos, available globally...?

In effect, I think exposure was much worse in Pinetti's time (remember Decremps!) when a street or stage performer's repertoire probably consisted of three to ten tricks in total--and they were all exposed! Yet they survived and marched on (remember Geller?), they reinvented and developed further. Today, the equation seems much more balanced to me. Yes, almost anything is available online, but everything else as well, and our attention spans and time budgets are very limited. Who would spend hours and hours over days and weeks, as a nonmagician, just to hunt down secret after secret? Maybe 1 in 10,000? 1 in a million? That ratio would not worry me.

Plus: People forget. We know that. The tricks, the urge to find out later, the secret. Hey, most of us can be fooled by tricks from books we thought we had studied. Because we forget. Because we don't pay attention. Because we don't recognize the same old trick in a new dress. I've forgotten the name, but once there was a pro who demonstrated with a golden TT that you could well be fooled even if you were "in on it"!

So magic is not in immediate danger of dying?

Not for me. Magic won't die from today's level of exposure. Bad tricks and overexposed tricks may die one day. I think that would actually be a good thing, or at least an adequate price to pay. But I feel even that won't happen. Why? Because there are just too many people out there, too many tricks and performers. Yes, there's a sucker born every minute and probably a coming thief, but at the same time there are also ten or a hundred or a thousand new spectators on the block. Believe me, not all of them will go hunting for the secret of each and every trick they will ever see in their lives. Not even half of them. Which comes to show again that we take that secret/exposure thing much more seriously than probably 95 or 99% of our audience. (But that's okay, because it shows that we think and care!)

Hell, religion hasn't died and won't die just because of advances in science or growing skepticism. Same with superstition. I guess at least 30% of all supposedly educated, enlightened, intelligent people today believe in one sort of crap or the other. Sometimes even 60 or 70%. (Welcome to America!) Lucky numbers, psychic abilities, angels, moon water, witchcraft, flat earth, U.F.O.s, predetermination--you name it. How ridiculous is it that most airlines and most hotels in 2019 won't have a 13th floor or a 13th row of seating? And just the other day, a Catholic school in Nashville, Tennessee has banned the "Harry Potter" series because a reverend at the school claims that the "curses and spells used in the books are actual curses and spells; which when read by a human being risk conjuring evil spirits." Yeah, right!
I find that utterly amazing. And yet, our magic thrives on the same human flaws and inconsistencies, only in an agreeable and hazard-free way!

So my point in a nutshell:

Let's relax, examine our own responsibilities and choose our actions wisely. Let's not waste time and energy on fighting windmills. It's futile and frustrating. Let's take up the challenge, transform it into positive energy and try harder and do better. Our magic deserves it. And she will pay back amply, both to ourselves and our audiences. Thank you, all you thieves and copycats and whistleblowers out there, for pushing us further! (Yet you remain despicable scum.)

Sorry for the long rant, by this felt very important to me, and I wanted to embed my reaction to Mahdi's points into a broader context. As always, feel free to agree or disagree, but be invited to mull over this important matter, too, and decide what YOU will actually DO!
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 4th, 2019, 6:04 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:...
So?

Jim Steinmeyer once wrote the great line, "Magicians are guarding an empty safe." ...

You were saying...?
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Zig Zagger » September 4th, 2019, 6:36 pm

I'm afraid I'm not getting your point...?

Your link refers to an empty lake, not an empty safe. ;)
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 4th, 2019, 8:17 pm

Um... that you're looking at the wrong safe to start?

We've had exponential growth of digital information presence in our culture. We carry more data in our phones than folks used to have in their libraries.

The magic shop is a business. As is the publishing industry. Our market where the product is effective-deception-when-performing has a few built in inefficiencies.

The art and its students are doing just fine. Look how much fine magic is shown on TV in recent years. :)

The idea is not to direct attention toward misbehavior so much as quietly direct efforts and resources toward better behavior.

*

[polemic]
Methods to manage "copyist" behavior and public displays of indecent exposure have already been discussed. Look for the word "bogon" and/or check the story in my signature. When you find something missing in a work - imagine you have found the site of a lost battle. The territory was ceded to "old trick" for this generation and the retreating army may have left a few surprises. You don't need to fail that way. It's not a wasteland so much as a mined field, littered with abandoned dialectic and failed rhetoric.

If we are in a market where the brand is "latest secret" and the ideal customer is someone who readily imagines performing before those even less well informed than themselves - what's the problem? Okay back to latest secrets written by a lawyer and published by a non-magicshop press with annotations by celebrities who recall seeing the tricks performed in deluxe edition with unusual endpapers and ...[/polemic!]
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Zig Zagger » September 5th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Um... that you're looking at the wrong safe to start?

We've had exponential growth of digital information presence in our culture. We carry more data in our phones than folks used to have in their libraries.

The magic shop is a business. As is the publishing industry. Our market where the product is effective-deception-when-performing has a few built in inefficiencies.

The art and its students are doing just fine. Look how much fine magic is shown on TV in recent years. :)

The idea is not to direct attention toward misbehavior so much as quietly direct efforts and resources toward better behavior.

I'm afraid you've lost me, Jonathan.

I'm very much in line with your points, and I feel I have covered a lot of it in my long post above. Unlike Mahdi, perhaps, I neither think that the secret of magic lies only in the tricks' secret nor do I believe that exposing secrets here and there will kill our art.

Maybe it would help to get Mahdi back on board here to continue the discussion.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 5th, 2019, 5:09 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:I'm afraid you've lost me, Jonathan [snip] Maybe it would help to get Mahdi back on board here to continue the discussion.

Agreed with getting more input from Mahdi.

I get the feeling folks are arguing the needs of the market, the art, and scholarship should coincide. The needs of commerce (exclusive distribution channel for resources enforced by civil law and ethos...) are not the same as the needs of art (market for product) which are also different from the needs of scholarship (accurate data and accepted reasoning process). Three distinct perspectives.

We can probably agree that there's little benefit in telling someone who likes toys that they have to make their own toys. Similarly, demanding a publisher write their own texts may not lead to better books. We can likely agree it's not helpful to insist scholars make up their own references and citations, and then be creative about their conclusions when they write.

Mahdi's concern about "secrets" is a miniature of our current questions about property, identity, and privacy.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Mahdi Gilbert » September 7th, 2019, 4:20 pm

Hi, feel free to ask me specific questions and I will do my best to answer. Also, I disagree with almost all of the statements made. One statement which I am considering is:

"Shun all people who disrespect magic and its creators, who expose, steal, copy and sell other people's intellectual properties and their secrets. Do not click or like or comment on their stuff or link to or forward their wrong doings. Do not encourage them. Do not interact. Do not even mention their sites or their names. And, of course, do not buy from them. If they pretend to be insiders, excommunicate them from your magic community. They are not part of it anyway. They are not worthy. Ignore them and forget them."

As it seems like the only thing to do at this point.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby PavelTheGreat » November 16th, 2019, 7:25 am

I think exposure is challenge to creative mind. I am not afraid if someone expose secret of trick on YouTube. The purpose of performing illusion is to cover up secret. Just do this in different way. Is very simple to disguise secret. Change props, change story, change moves. Fear of exposure is for those who perform same old trick.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby I.M. Magician » November 16th, 2019, 1:11 pm

Two things if you please.

First, I have been saying for many years that stealing/exposing magic secrets is the world’s second oldest profession(s) and there is little to nothing you can do about it. Maybe sad but true.

Second, I am wondering how your doggie is doing Mahdi? Hopefully, the fella is doing very well!

Quite frankly, the health and happiness of animals is way more important than magic secrets being stolen and/ or exposed. Just a reality check my friends.

I want to thank everyone for indulging me...

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby performer » November 16th, 2019, 5:06 pm

The last time I met Madhi's dog it was urinating all over the Toronto public transportation system. I am not which is the lesser of the two evils. Internet exposure or urinating canines.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby I.M. Magician » November 16th, 2019, 7:41 pm

performer wrote:The last time I met Madhi's dog it was urinating all over the Toronto public transportation system. I am not which is the lesser of the two evils. Internet exposure or urinating canines.


It’s not that nice dog’s fault if it wasn’t trained properly. What’s unfortunate is that the dog was not nurtured to do the right thing in the correct place.

All canines urinate. Where they urinate is determined by how well they are trained.

You would be doing the same thing if no one taught you urinating skills. I am assuming that you don’t urinate in the Toronto public transportation system.

By the way, evil is a strong word and should be used sparingly and I assume that you are not an animal lover.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 16th, 2019, 9:11 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:I think exposure is challenge to creative mind. I am not afraid if someone expose secret of trick on YouTube.
How does that work for you as you get critiqued as you perform?
Hey, nice getready for the tilt! Did you buy your shell from Todd or Jamie?
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby performer » November 17th, 2019, 1:44 am

I.M. Magician wrote:
performer wrote:The last time I met Madhi's dog it was urinating all over the Toronto public transportation system. I am not which is the lesser of the two evils. Internet exposure or urinating canines.


It’s not that nice dog’s fault if it wasn’t trained properly. What’s unfortunate is that the dog was not nurtured to do the right thing in the correct place.

All canines urinate. Where they urinate is determined by how well they are trained.

You would be doing the same thing if no one taught you urinating skills. I am assuming that you don’t urinate in the Toronto public transportation system.

By the way, evil is a strong word and should be used sparingly and I assume that you are not an animal lover.


The only animals I have no love for are crappy magicians of whom there are several million. I do like animals providing they are not urinating all over my feet on the Toronto Subway. I do agree that the canine in question probably wasn't trained properly. Its owner has been far too busy complaining about the wickedness of you tube exposure which I do agree is very wicked indeed. The urinating dog problem is conducive to a possible solution. Magic exposure is going to be a far tougher nut to crack. I did see a very faint glimpse of light though although I am not quite sure of the details. Something to do with new legislation which restricts posts that are "child friendly" and it seems that magic may possibly come under that category. It is going to affect creators of magic apparently even if their magic is not designed for kids anyway.

I am not entirely sure what it is about. It seems that crafts people are up in arms about it.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby PavelTheGreat » November 17th, 2019, 5:07 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:I think exposure is challenge to creative mind. I am not afraid if someone expose secret of trick on YouTube.
How does that work for you as you get critiqued as you perform?
Hey, nice getready for the tilt! Did you buy your shell from Todd or Jamie?


I do not understand. I never perform trick as it is written in instructions. Always I take basic concept and re-work. With me it is all about the disguise. I wish nobody to recognise routine.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby performer » November 17th, 2019, 5:23 pm

PavelTheGreat wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:
PavelTheGreat wrote:I think exposure is challenge to creative mind. I am not afraid if someone expose secret of trick on YouTube.
How does that work for you as you get critiqued as you perform?
Hey, nice getready for the tilt! Did you buy your shell from Todd or Jamie?


I do not understand.


Oh, nobody understands Jonathon. You are not supposed to. Tradition you know.


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