Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Paco Nagata
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Paco Nagata » July 25th, 2019, 6:58 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Charlie was indeed a secretive person, but very open if he knew you.


Indeed he must have been a really good friend of Fred Braue. I guess Vernon forgave him for telling Braue tons of his magic stuff without knowing him because Hugard and Braue did a very good job. So, Charlie Miller chose the ideal person to show those secrets. Braue was the man.
It's quite ok if you show secrets to the proper people.
I personally show my own ideas ONLY to people that are real amateur card magic lovers.
In other words:
When you expose magic secrets to the inappropiate guys you are REVEALING, but if you do it to the proper guys you are HELPING.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 25th, 2019, 10:30 am

That just pushes the dispute over to " who decides" and "what criteria". If you say price, then welcome to the time and attention market...and time costs money so the argument about dollar transactions doesn't work anymore. You could argue for value/competency product. That loses the 'secret' and adds much work to ensure transmission of competency. Armando Lucero does workshops teaching his material that way.

/t/ channel for tricks, pranks, and prop gags?
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Paco Nagata
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Paco Nagata » July 25th, 2019, 10:11 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:That just pushes the dispute over to " who decides" and "what criteria".

I couldn't agree more.
Jonathan Townsend wrote: You could argue for value/competency product. That loses the 'secret' and adds much work to ensure transmission of competency.

Certainly, Art and Bussines are two different things and usually don't get along.
Jonathan Townsend wrote: Armando Lucero does workshops teaching his material that way

It's very interesting notice that he transmits his magic like Hofzinser used to do; no books, no publishing, but just some lecture for some serious magicians.
BTW, his "Empanada" is one of the best card routine ever, and I would never dare to try it unless, and only unless, I have the chance to be tought it by himself.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Longtimelurker » July 26th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Are you not think crappy playing card tie, Omni deck clone magician’s do much harm than some man of China?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 26th, 2019, 7:00 pm

The hack magician with the playing card tie is detrimental and speaks to issues of taste in regard to how it appeals to magicians.

Exposure undermines the essence of the art

We don’t dismiss a piece of art because some pieces of art are tacky and unoriginal. We don’t stop listening to the Beatles because someone butchered yellow submarine at a karaoke bar.

But people will dismiss a piece of magic because they know how it’s done.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 26th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:people will dismiss a piece of magic because they know how it’s done.


Just to be clear, does your "rule," apply to knowing the secret before the trick, after it, or both?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 26th, 2019, 10:20 pm

It’s not a rule

It’s an observed truth.

And yes, when people think they know how a trick is done before it’s performed they dismiss it out of hand, closing their minds to the possibiiity of experiencing magic even if the method actually used might be different.

And yes, once learning the secret, they will lose the magic moment they once experienced. They often end up feeling cheated and disappointed.

We keep secrets not for the magicians protection, but for that of our audiences

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 26th, 2019, 10:42 pm

So when audiences watch Penn & Teller perform the second half of their cups and balls routine, they "lose the magic moment they experienced" moments before, and they feel "cheated and disappointed?"

An "observed truth" does not mean it's the only truth.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 26th, 2019, 10:54 pm

Peter Ross wrote:So when audiences watch Penn & Teller perform the second half of their cups and balls routine, they "lose the magic moment they experienced" moments before, and they feel "cheated and disappointed?"
There's a moment where you look on the table and see the three large balls under the cups that seems to blank out the words and the sense of understanding. To me it feels like "anyway" and I want to laugh. What do you feel at that moment during the second phase of the routine?
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jackpot » July 26th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Peter Ross wrote:So when audiences watch Penn & Teller perform the second half of their cups and balls routine, they "lose the magic moment they experienced" moments before, and they feel "cheated and disappointed?"

An "observed truth" does not mean it's the only truth.


Mr. Ross, do you consider what XX does to be the same as what Penn & Teller did?
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 26th, 2019, 11:16 pm

The difference Peter is that P and T are using infornation in a careful manner that is intended to enhance the magical response - much as Vernon did in setting up the final loads via an explanation of a bad false transfer. It is not a coincidence that in both cases the information is used to set up an immediate magical response.

The downside of PTs approach is you DO encounter people who will much later see a cups and balls routine and dismiss it because ‘they know how it’s done’.

Of course, one can argue that the cups and balls is usually presented as a display of skill, and one can still appreciate skill - perhaps more so - knowing how it’s done.

But skill is juggling and juggling is not magic.


And if there are other truths, please present them

So far you have only referenced imaginary audiences whose magic experiences are enhanced by exposure.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 27th, 2019, 12:10 am

As you can see, Jackpot, even though Brad points out a difference in exposure style between P&T and XX, he does not entirely exonerate P&T, maintaining that there are artistic casualties stemming from their choice of material. Others who agree with him are the fellows in charge at the Magic Circle. So I guess it's not so clear cut.

For more about the possibilities of presenting magic alongside "exposure", I would refer you to Helge Thun's "Secrets" column in this month's Genii. Although he dismisses "cheap explanations" (presumably like XX's videos and the like), at least he's thinking about secrets in a non-dogmatic way.

Of course there are other truths about how people can experience magic. For example, on BoingBoing there are comments from people who enjoy watching magic and knowing about some of its secrets. A commenter on XX's own site says they enjoy the "second surprise."
Are these poor examples? Perhaps if we took some time to try and understand the audience of XX we'd learn different truths (instead of categorically dismissing them as "peep show" purveyors). Perhaps if more magicians opened their minds (along the lines of Mr. Thun), we'd have more examples of audiences who enjoy experiencing magic alongside reveals.

To say that we keep secrets for the audiences' protection is to demean and insult our audiences, as well as limit our own possibilities of exploring the presentation of magic.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2019, 12:32 am

It's different if you either already know or can see the methods. It's closer to how film students see editing, how shots are lit, hear the sounds added and notice which lenses are used. Getting back to xx, most films don't sell "behind the scenes" videos and props for other people's movies.

Okay, if Helge wants to sell his used bedsheets... up to him.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2019, 1:22 am

@Peter Ross's argument about method reveals. That's been explored in tricks and presentations which commonly devolve into "backstage" and "stung/stung again". Audiences seem to enjoy "Hogwarts" when it's onscreen but it's a tough sell in realtime.

Perhaps if xx, Helge and others put in the effort to make their own performances both deceptive and entertaining for paying audiences they'd be less pleased to find others selling their work.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jackpot » July 27th, 2019, 1:59 am

Mr. Ross,

Thank you for pointing out what Mr. Henderson wrote after my post, but it does not answer my question. Can you please tell me what you think? Do you consider what XX does to be the same as what Penn & Teller did? I am simply trying to better understand your position.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Matthew Field » July 27th, 2019, 6:07 am

Peter Ross wrote: "I'm sure no kid has the money to buy a Losander Floating Table, but with XX's video maybe she could build one, and maybe she adds something to make it better." If the kid gets permission from Losander to build the table, OK. Otherwise, it's stealing.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Sawyer » July 27th, 2019, 6:56 am

If David Devant were alive today, and knew what was going on in magic today, I wonder what opinions he would post on this thread. Something tells me that a lot that has been posted here would not be congruent with his views. Some of the guys posting here have been grappling meaningfully with these issues for a long time. Others, I don't know. But to outsiders a lot of it may sound a little like this: Baseball is the best sport. No, football is the best sport. No, basketball is the best sport. And yeah, you can come up with reasons supporting each of those sports as being best, but I'm not sure any consensus can be reached.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 27th, 2019, 8:39 am

Peter,

Centuries of experience indicates that people who have magic methods exposed to them experience either a loss of the magical experience OR feel insulted and demeaned. (Remember the masked magicians repeated “can you believe ssomething so simple fooled you?’)

So how can it be demeaning to suggest keeping secrets protects them from these experiences?

Experiencing a ‘second surprise’ is not experiencing magic.

Magic and surprise are two different things entirely.

If the second surprise kills the initial magic experience, then how can one argue it is ‘good’ or ‘helpful’ for the magic experience?

And logic dictates that once the method is known the magic moment is killed. Though if you care to make an argument as to how that isn’t true, I would be happy to hear it.

But you keep making claims with nothing to back them up.

Now, I suspect the reason people at boing appreciate magic secrets is because these people are - often - builders and makers and not magicians.

People here may not know that we have met. I’ve seen your ‘act’. (The scare quotes are not intended to be insulting, but to suggest that what you do is very different from what most people think of when they think of magic.)

Peter, I would argue, is not a magician as much as he is a maker. He has designed a lovely portable theater, not unlike a flea circus, in which he demonstrates various magic illusions in miniature form

From our conversation it is clear that you are interested in methods as a means to build small props to demonstrate in your created space.

And that’s great.

And if a maker/builder were to watch your act I’m sure they would be fascinated by knowing what went into making those props, which necessarily includes the method.

But that isn’t what the magic experience is.

The magic experience results from a first hand encounter with the logically impossible. When you remove the element of the impossible, you no longer have the magic experience.

So we have to ask ourselves whenever we divulge information - does it end the magic experience, or foster and sustain it

So there will always be grey areas. PT’s cups and balls, the Vernon false transfer, the opening gambit of the sucker torn and restored paper.

One can make the case that these lead to a greater magic experience.

Merely showing someone how something is done does not

Likewise with teaching. If one merely tells how something is done, nothing has been taught. No skill has been transferred. No empowerment has occurred.

For the person who learns the secret, the magic dies.

BUT, if we truly teach the person, empowering them to share the magic with others - we keep the magic going.

To do that though, one must understand the capabilities and resources available to the student. If someone doesn’t own a losander table, then to explain it kills the magic. (And as pointed out - telling them to build their own is to encourage theft).

Now if someone brings me a losander table, i’ll Teach them everything I know about it because they have the resources to be able to use that information and keep it alive. I will also insure I teach what needs to be known for them to do that.

The videos you are defending do not do that. They are not intended to empower - and we know that based on how they are marketed and the superficial level of ‘instruction’. (Or more accurately exposure ).

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, your defenses remain weak. Millions and millions of people have seen the masked magician shows. Can you point to a single case of magic improvement which resulted from a viewer seeing that show and deciding to offer an advancement to the craft of magic?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 27th, 2019, 8:44 am

Tom, I disagree with your analogy. A more accurate one would be an argument about which sport causes more injuries, baseball or football.

The issues here are not just matters of taste, but of how choices impact results.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 27th, 2019, 10:54 am

Brad, I'm surprised (and a little disappointed) that you bring up my own act as a way of making the point that...I'm not a magician? And therefore I'm not qualified to weigh in on this discussion. While you're correct that on first impression, some (by no means all) people do not know exactly what they are experiencing when they see me perform (a situation that I like), it soon becomes clear (certainly by the time the curtain goes down), that what they have witnessed is a magic trick. I seem to receive the same reactions as would befit a magic performance ("wow!" "How did you do that?" "Where did that little elephant go?" etc, ) from all types of audiences. I do not perform a parody or simulation of magic (like a puppet show or toy theater), but actual magic - as you saw - just in miniature. As a collector of Eddy Taytelbaum, are you saying micro magic is not real magic?

Being a bit stunned by your characterization of my act (especially in context with this topic to suggest I don't understand what magic is), I'm kind of adverse to continue on with the discussion with you, as I think there's a lack of respect on your part (It certainly does not go both ways). If you would like to clarify and discuss this with me further, please contact me privately.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Joe Lyons » July 27th, 2019, 10:59 am

Excerpts from the Jinx on exposure in this month’s M.U.M. article on Annemann mirror exactly the various views in this forum.

And they were written over eighty years ago.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Leo Garet » July 27th, 2019, 11:36 am

Brad Henderson wrote:The issues here are not just matters of taste, but of how choices impact results.

Well, it's reassuring that someone knows what the issues are.
:) ;)

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Peter,

No disrespect intended at all.

But it is clear you have a different outlook on this matter and i contend this is reflected in your approach to Magic which is influenced by your interests as a maker.

Just look at the arguments you have made here and on other threads where the subject has come up. You repeatedly speak to those alleged people who want to make magic - who will use these exposures as an opportunity to make the props needed. You even once waxed on about a father and son seeing a boing boing video and deciding to make a project together, if I recall.

You’re a builder and a maker and it’s through that lens you view and value magic.

Nothing disrespectful about it at all

And it explains a lot. I know lots of makers and they aren’t usually secretive. In fact, I had one once lift one of my routines and he couldn’t understand why I would have been upset. In his world, sharing information is a badge of honor.

He looked at magic through the value system of a builder/maker.

Let’s chose another example - there is an Automata builder in the northeast who loves to learn magic secrets so he can build them into his Automata. His relationship to magic is also different from most magicians. He isn’t worried about secrets. To him magic is a knowledge base from which he can find inspiration.

He makes lovely stuff.

Another Automata maker in California also makes magic inspired pieces. He was asked to contribute to an amazing book on the subject, but refused because they wanted him to explain the secret workings the mechanics produced.

He grew up with an interest in magic which influenced his love of building.

So to suggest that people have different value systems based on their interests is hardly an act of disrespect. I can’t think of an observation more obvious.

Your approach to magic is clearly fueled by your interest in building - no one would have the amazing set up you have if they didn’t.

And I think it’s those values which have influenced the way you look at magic.

You are of course entitled to weigh in here - and those opinions expressed are informed by your values and interests. Knowing those can only help further the discussion as it allows us better to see where you are coming from.

Right?

For those reading, if you get a chance to see Peter’s set up, you should. It’s truly unique.

I think it’s even worthy of a article in a major magic magazine.

But to suggest that you values don’t influence your work and your work informs your values - that’s just silly.

Your skin is thicker than that.

Now let’s get back to the subject - I believe someone asked if you feel that what the exposer is doing is the same as what PT do.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 28th, 2019, 12:07 am

Brad, your first attempt to interpret my viewpoints on exposure by relating it to my artistic output did come off as slightly patronizing, so I appreciate the clarification and the assurance that you meant no disrespect.

You mentioned that there will always be “grey areas” when it comes to exposure. But grey areas imply that there are black and white endpoints. So what are those endpoints, and who decides what they are?

Is the white endpoint a magic trick whose method is only ever known to the creator? And is the black endpoint what XX is doing? From Mahdi G’s proposed petition to Google, to some Chinese magicians’ formation of the League in Opposition to the Revealing of Magic Secrets, it would seem that XX is the black endpoint of the grey area of exposure; he represents the absolute worst of magic in terms of exposure. Or is there something/someone worse, moving XX slightly to the lighter area?

Let’s look at a comparison, the one you (and Jackpot) seek regarding what XX does vs. what P&T does. For specificity sake let’s look at P&T’s cups and balls vs. XX’s video of the two cups and walnuts trick (since both magicians reveal the method using transparent cups/bowls).

It’s obvious that P&T do their version as a magic performance (with Teller on record explaining the genesis of the routine, and how he wanted to show the beauty of the moves while understanding that it wouldn’t really spoil it for the audience). Even in this “grey area,” the trick elicited indignation from magicians (including the Magic Circle), and even you, Brad, claiming that while it is “intended to enhance the magical response,” it nonetheless has a “downside” of spoiling the future viewing of the trick for some.

On the other end, is XX’s video demonstration of the bowls trick (which can be seen from a link in the article provided by Jack S at the beginning of this thread). For this video and all his others, there is almost universal condemnation from the magic community (at least on this forum), albeit with a stern reprimand from Mr. Gilbert that the community’s response to this scoundrel is an unacceptable “TOTAL SILENCE.”

So who is this “exposer,” this “hack,” this “thief,” this “peep show” purveyor who just wants to “cash in on the most prurient of an audience's interests?”

To quote Mahdi G...*crickets*

That is, everyone who hurls insults at XX, hasn’t really tried to understand the person or his audience. At least that’s the impression I get. A guy has videos showing magic methods? He’s a jerk. Case closed.

Well, it turns out that Mr. XX is sincere in his belief that his videos are to help young magicians.
“In China's second and third-tier cities, there are no (magic) classes, while traditional masters only have one or two disciples," says Li, who is from a small town in the southern Chinese province of Jiangsu.”

His motivation is confirmed in the responses he gives in the comments section, and his comments to me after I contacted him (gasp!).

Who is the audience of XX’s videos? It turns out from my perusing of the extensive comments section of the bowls video (one of his most-watched), that yes, these are mostly young aspiring magician-types who do view XX’s videos as a form of...teaching. I know Brad, as a magic teacher, how repulsive that must sound to you, and that you think these kids should simply find the ‘appropriate’ resources and avenues to learn magic.

But what I’ve learned as a teacher (of both educational technology and a little magic), is that so-called exposure can sometimes be the beginning of learning. Not the end-all, but a beginning. And judging from the sampling of comments in XX’s bowls video, his audience of young aspiring magicians knows it too:

“The simpler the technique, the more skill you need.”

The bowls trick, “Can be applied to different sizes of large and small ways to benefit a lot!”

“In addition to the speed of the hand, it is also necessary to guide the audience to pay attention.”

“I use a transparent bowl, I feel... still amazing”

“Very clear, clear decomposition method, thank you, sincerely praise!”

“With decryption, the first step is to fully see when the left hand is changing the right hand.”

“The first time I put a walnut, there is a crisp sound. When I pretend it, there is no sound. So don't use walnuts anymore. Make a sponge.”

XX comment about the bowls trick: “A trick to play for 10 years, hard work”

“what is the problem of deciphering self-study?”

“You have to be very delicate and skilled. I can’t do it without practicing it.”

“Explained the problem that has been bothering me for a long time”

“The uncle who performed this magic is not saying that he wants to lose it? I hope more young magicians can learn.”

“Can ordinary people go to perform, can ordinary people see the performances of others? Still far away.”

----------

And on the issue of revealing the method?


“The magic is mainly practiced, knowing the principle does not affect its charm.”

“The magical place is that the technical threshold is very high.”

“The principle is simple. The key is that you take it too fast.”

“Even if it is revealed, the scene is still very exciting.”

“I know the principle is still very admired.”

“Even if I have a transparent bowl, I still look dazzled... it’s amazing!”

“I use a transparent bowl, I feel... still amazing”

“Thanks for the decryption.
I personally don't think the decryption magic is bad. Because that would make people more aware of the skill level of technology.”

“Just looking at the speed is already amazing, the magic itself is not important, the method is not important, the point is that there is no flaw!”

“Support you, don't care what the sprayers say. At least I understand the magician more after understanding the principle. Even if I tell the principle, I won't change. It shows how many viewers can't see the magical work.”

“To me, revealing magic is more appealing than watching magic”

“How long ago was the United States doing a show that revealed large magic tricks, but did David’s large panoramic magic end?”


Brad, you said, “If one merely tells how something is done, nothing has been taught. No skill has been transferred. No empowerment has occurred.” I would argue, based on these comments, that empowerment is indeed occurring here. The pedagogy may be abhorrent to you, but it’s valid.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 28th, 2019, 9:46 am

The masked magician claimed he was giving away secrets to encourage other magicians to come up with new ones. (A claim I believe also made by XX in one of the articles about the exposure).

Yet his script told audiences that whenever you see any trick like this it’s always done this way.

So, it’s clear, claiming ones motivations are sincere do not always mean they are

I know if I got caught with my hand in the cookie jar i’d Tell someone I was getting the cookie for them.

None of the quotes you provided from alleged ‘learners’ ever claimed that they were more amazed and experienced greater astonishment when seeing the trick after knowing the method. This confirms to me that indeed once the method is known, the magic experiences dies.

What was once experienced as Wonder and awe becomes nothing more than an appreciation of skill.

And while there is nothing wrong with appreciating skill, that appreciation isn’t the magic experience, now is it?

You become indignant at the thought that I or someone might insist that there is one way of experiencing magic, but yet you have no problem with this person performing an act that forces peoples to have a specific experience as well - one relegated to methodological appreciation devoid of Wonder.

As the crux of the magical experience is the experience of the impossible, these acts become almost a case of magical terrorism. Because XX feels that magic should be appreciated only as a skill, because you feel magic should be democratized and open to all who might want to learn it, you are willing to destroy the experience for everyone else to achieve your goals.

This notion that he is doing it for the kids is nonsense. Every kid who can access his videos already has access to tens of thousands of magical resources, many free, produced by those who actually created the ideas being explained.

So the question becomes what then is XX adding to the conversation?

Nothing. Nothing beyond better marketing that gets more eyes - especially eyes who aren’t truly serious about learning magic - into his page where he makes money off the previous work of others

If his goal is truly to educate, why then didn’t he reach out to the magicians whose work he is clearly exposing and ask them for permission or to participate?

That’s seems telling doesn’t it?

Or why isn’t he creating his own magic and sharing it?

It seems he is taking work popularized and performed by others and - in spite of that artists wishes - profiting from them.

How can you defend that?

I mean, clearly the people whose work was good enough to get on national TV know more about the work than he does - if it was so important to him to allow students access to the best information for their growth, why didn’t he partner with the actual expert?

If one is sincere about the task it seems odd that he’s doing it behind everyone else’s backs.

And as a magic teacher I have to ask, is magic better served by what I do or is it harmed.

We KNOW that exposures like this lead many to dismiss magic as trivial and take away the magic experience.

Now tell me - I ask again - after millions and millions of people watched the masked magician shows - how many of them took up magic and created some revolutionary advancement from having done so?

You have yet To provide a single name.

Finally, I reject the notion that a grey area implies endpoints.

The universe isn’t a straight line. Never has been.

Why should this?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 28th, 2019, 12:51 pm

The Masked Magician's genius was that he created a sense of drama out of something that no one (outside of magicians) really even thought or cared about. "Breaking The Magician's Code" and wearing a mask were clever ways of attracting an audience of magic enthusiasts who were presented with a different take on magic. I give him credit for that. However, his cheesy one-note act couldn't be sustained, whether he did reveals or not.

Contrast that to kids like XX, who have their own channel of entertainment (and yes, learning), but don't present their reveals with trumped-up drama, a sense of confrontation or antagonism toward the "Magician's Code." He and his audience are simply interested in magic, and a part of that interest is learning and sharing magic methods (Maybe it's his lack of drama that disgusts and frightens).

XX and his like are a niche of magic, one which ceratin people (mainly young magic enthusiasts) seek out and enjoy. To claim that it is a virus that threatens magic's soul strains credulity.

Access Hollywood is a show based on other people's work and creativity. But the hosts don't contribute anything original besides their personality. Do they take away anything from these creators they talk about? Sure. Sometimes they reveal the celebrity's "secrets." They go behind the scenes to look behind the "magic." You may find this distasteful, but obviously, others do not, and the show is part of entertainment's ecosystem.

On the subject of learning, who's to say XX's audience isn't checking out both his website and other forms of magic resources? Maybe XX's reveals are a catalyst for them to explore deeper (as I have witnessed and experienced myself), or maybe it's just another resource.

On the subject of appreciation and enjoyment, who's to say that one cannot appreciate both the magic fooling and the magic method? I reject the steadfast claim that those two things are mutually exclusive. I do believe that one can be fooled, learn the method, and still remember/enjoy the original fooling, perhaps with a better appreciation for the former. And I don't believe knowing a method (or believing one knows it) necessarily diminishes future magic experiences. These are opinions, however, not "observable truths."

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Mahdi Gilbert » July 28th, 2019, 2:17 pm

“In China's second and third-tier cities, there are no (magic) classes, while traditional masters only have one or two disciples," says XX, who is from a small town in the southern Chinese province of Jiangsu.”

There are no magic classes in most of the world. In China, every single book, VHS and DVD (that has been sold and marketing to the worldwide magic community) is available online for free due to them not respecting our copyright laws. I've been to China several times for magic and I know many Chinese magicians. They do not have a lack of learning material.

That we have to use XX instead of the magician's name (I forget it and it would be edited out by Richard Kaufman either way) is absurd.

The attitude that most people on here is absurd.

It's a tragedy that most of the people in the magic world today do not understand why secrets are secrets and that magic DEPENDS on secrets remaining secrets.

I have always observed that there are people who understand the concept of secrecy and others that do not. If you can't understand secrecy you should do magic and real magicians a favor and just leave.

Imagine if someone involved in an intelligence agency didn't understand the value of protecting secrets. They would be putting people and countries in danger. They would be fired, prosecuted, and most likely imprisoned or executed.

Imagine if someone involved in the tech industry didn't respect the industrial secrets their company was developing. The competition would love learning those secrets but they would be damaging their company and industry. They would be fired and prosecuted and never be able to work in tech again.

I can keep naming countless situations and scenarios where secrecy is NECESSARY.

The idea that most magicians don't understand the necessity of secrecy is insane.

No one outside of magic would believe that magicians are that stupid if you tried to explain this.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 28th, 2019, 10:41 pm

If taken seriously then one might ask "Or what?". Who'd want to be Big Brother or Emanuel Goldstein? Leaving others to do as they choose, you're free to discuss your own secrets and routines as you see fit. As inspiration - perhaps there's a market for an Edward Gorey Gashlycrumb Tinies alphabet poem and images for the magic shop.

So, who's funnier, Polonius or Malvolio?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 29th, 2019, 9:32 am

Peter

The experience of magic is the experience of the impossible.

Once the method is known there is NO experience of the impossible.

Once you know the method the magic experience dies.

You can imagine that someone could know and remember the feeling, but logically that is not possible.

And we know this: when people have a brush with magic they keep it and enhance it in their memories for years to come.

They embellish it and make it bigger.

The magic lives and grows in them.

That will never happen once someone knows the method.

Never.

Because knowledge pours salt on the field and nothing can grow.

And you just undermined your own key point: if these people are turning to other sources in order to get information, then XX’s site is irrelevant to the process and serves only to expose secrets to those unwilling to try at all to find them themselves.

The only claim you can make now - which you have in other threads - is more people interested in learning magic is good for magic.

I can’t see that as necessarily true.

And do you really want to defend this guy’s work by comparing him to a celebrity gossip show? You are making my case for me! It’s nothing but a peep show where you get ‘insights’ into the secret
World of the celebrity.

EXCEPT the people on access Hollywood all have agents and promoters and publicists who are working with the show. Their illusion is that they are finding news, their method is conspiracy with the subjects.

Had your friend here asked the other magicians whose work he is taking first it would be different.

But he didn’t.

Why not?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 29th, 2019, 1:29 pm

@Brad, what do you do when someone asks you if some piece they saw you perform involved "real" magic?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 29th, 2019, 2:10 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:@Brad, what do you do when someone asks you if some piece they saw you perform involved "real" magic?


I agree with them.

Because it’s true.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Mahdi Gilbert » July 29th, 2019, 5:14 pm

I made two videos on these topics.

How Magic Became a Clown Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35lWAQeBdHI

How The Magic Community LOVES Exposing Magic to the Public & It's Consequences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVmgORsYps

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 29th, 2019, 8:40 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
Once you know the method the magic experience dies.
You can imagine that someone could know and remember the feeling, but logically that is not possible.


I fundamentally disagree with those statements. I still remember the experience of watching Blackstone Jr. float a lightbulb on stage when I was a kid. Even though I now know (or think I know) the method, that initial, wonderful experience of being fooled is with me forever.
I don't need to still be fooled to enjoy having been fooled.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 29th, 2019, 9:27 pm

Peter Ross wrote: that initial, wonderful experience of being fooled is with me forever.
I don't need to still be fooled to enjoy having been fooled.
Good for you. And what those who have yet to enjoy that experience?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_John_Malkovich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche,_New_York
...and somewhere in the not too distant future a group of magician reinactors gather to act as audience for a historical documentary about the webcast which introduced What's That ?(TM). Of course their performance is being recorded for motion capture so the depicted audience can be designed later during post production.

I'm done blaming the muppet and scolding the profiteer on this one.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 30th, 2019, 10:00 am

Peter Ross wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
Once you know the method the magic experience dies.
You can imagine that someone could know and remember the feeling, but logically that is not possible.


I fundamentally disagree with those statements. I still remember the experience of watching Blackstone Jr. float a lightbulb on stage when I was a kid. Even though I now know (or think I know) the method, that initial, wonderful experience of being fooled is with me forever.
I don't need to still be fooled to enjoy having been fooled.


It’s not about enjoyment.

It’s about the nature of the conveyed feelingful response.

That response you had originally - which was unique and powerful - is forever gone.

It may be a fond memory, but it’s dead.

To the person for whom the mystery remains it lives on and is active.

Knowing the secret changes the experience and always lessens it

Always.

(Unless the secret is more entertaining and clever than the method - in which case you are likely at
A magic lecture).

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby I.M. Magician » July 30th, 2019, 11:23 am

For many years, I have had a short and simple to the point statement concerning magic secrets which goes like this...

Once you know the secret, it’s not a trick anymore.

That sums it up!

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 30th, 2019, 1:37 pm

Magic is not about enjoyment? Then what is it about? Even if it attains a higher artistic purpose of sublimeness, one feels enjoyment from that. The "wonder" Doug Henning wished for his audiences to experience was of the positive, pleasurable sort, not a fearful, apprehensive wonder. The act of being fooled can result in either possibility.

"Knowing the secret changes the experience and always lessons it."

I don't think you can make this a definitive statement. Knowing the secret may result in a different perspective of the original experience, but it is not predetermined to lower the quality of the original memory At the very least, you have to acknowledge it is a subjective possibility for audiences. Our minds are capable of very complex things, including compartmentalizing.

Does the fact that one now knows about Michael Jackson's "secrets" change the experience(s) they felt when they first listened to his music? For some, yes. For others, no.

For me, I can still vividly recall the astonishment, wonder, and joy of being fooled by Blackstone's Floating Lightbulb (in the third row, no less!). You cannot take that away from me Brad, nor does knowing the secret.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Moore » July 30th, 2019, 2:20 pm

. For me, I can still vividly recall the astonishment, wonder, and joy of being fooled by Blackstone's Floating Lightbulb (in the third row, no less!). You cannot take that away from me Brad, nor does knowing the secret.


No, no one can take that memory from you but never again for the rest of your life will you be able to experience that feeling again in real time when you see the effect performed. The best you will ever have is a fading memory of an emotion you felt decades ago. However if you didn’t know the method of the effect you’d feel elements of wonder and magic every time you’ve seen it performed.

You have lost something.
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 30th, 2019, 2:37 pm

* spoiler alert *
Cyan is not part of the rainbow. Yellow may or may not be - depending.
In our discussion - anchoring is relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necker_cube (1832). Here's a less abstract picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Allan_Gilbert (1892)
About pictures: Let's not spoil the fun with the cow or the dog or the dots that seem to twinkle into existence at intersections.
* end spoilers *

Maybe some folks don't yet understand the difference between a puzzle and a signpost.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 30th, 2019, 3:10 pm

I agree partially with Brad's statement, but disagree in other ways, when he writes "Magic is not about enjoyment."

In most cases, magic is absolutely about enjoyment (which also encompasses "being fooled").

Magic can also be about tension (Houdini and David Blaine) and terror (Bizarre Magick, The Sacred Riana, Penn & Teller's Bullet Catch).

Copperfield's very successful show which runs 15 shows a week at the MGM in Vegas is all about enjoyment and mystery. They are not mutually exclusive.
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