Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 13th, 2019, 1:00 am

No One But Us (will make instructional materials...)
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 13th, 2019, 8:34 am

Perhaps the silence comes from no one being aware this person existed - until the free publicity given him.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Ted M » July 13th, 2019, 8:43 am

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Roger M. » July 13th, 2019, 10:52 am

Folks could have spent a lifetime searching "magic" on Google and never even come close to seeing that YouTube channel.
You've increased his number of viewers substantially by providing the web address of an otherwise (it's totally in Chinese) nearly impossible website to randomly locate.
Providing questionable links here in the Genii Forum is in effect advertising them in one of the highest profile, and easily discovered magic sites on the internet.

It's absolutely pointless to link to Asian exposure sites. In doing so you're projecting Western ethics on a culture that doesn't remotely partake of the same line of thinking.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Leo Garet » July 13th, 2019, 10:59 am

Brad Henderson wrote:Perhaps the silence comes from no one being aware this person existed - until the free publicity given him.


Yep. On the button.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Leo Garet » July 13th, 2019, 11:01 am

Can the links on here be removed?
The topic can still be discussed, but even that might send some off on a search.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 13th, 2019, 11:55 am

Gone.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jackpot » July 13th, 2019, 1:32 pm

The link originally posted took me to a YouTube channel with 73,000 subscribers out of the 7.7 billion inhabitants of Earth.

While I understand Mr. Gilbert's concern, his abilities and accomplishments as a magician would indicate that our time is better spent creating, practicing, performing and entertaining than being overly concerned with these types of YouTube videos.

Most people don't care to look up magic secrets. If they did sites like this would have a lot more subscribers. I wonder how many of the 0.00095% of the worlds population that subscribe to this channel consider themselves magicians? (I am pretty sure that I've done the math right and the decimal point is in the right place, but there are a lot of zeros to contend with.)

I have no doubt that all the magicians involved in the dispute are ultimately benefiting from exposure.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Mahdi Gilbert » July 13th, 2019, 2:52 pm

"It's absolutely pointless to link to Asian exposure sites. In doing so you're projecting Western ethics on a culture that doesn't remotely partake of the same line of thinking."

The link I posted was to Youtube which is an American company owned by Google. The text that was in Chinese is automatically translated in the back end of Youtube/Google making the magic exposes available to people in every language (not only Chinese).

RK EDIT: LINK REMOVED

This channel is uploading HD quality magic VHS and DVDs. Again total silence. People have been complaining and reporting it (me included) to Youtube for a long time to no avail even though it clearly violates copyright.

Here is another website illegally selling my magic that I filmed with Penguin Magic: RK EDIT: LINK REMOVED

I love how people are blaming me for giving them free publicity but actually do and say actually nothing about the situation.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Bob Farmer » July 13th, 2019, 3:18 pm

As noted in another post, I hired a Chinese witch doctor to create a special curse for this Chinese sites. This would seem to be the only way to combat these betrayals and thieves.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 13th, 2019, 3:23 pm

With regards to the original complaint (the YouTube channel of XX), I watched several of his videos. In my opinion (admittedly without being able to understand what he is saying), they seem to function primarily as teaching videos. I think it's telling that the CNN article Jack S. posted about the YouTube site contained only one quote from XX, and it was this:

"In China's second and third-tier cities, there are no (magic) classes, while traditional masters only have one or two disciples," says XX, who is from a small town in the southern Chinese province of Jiangsu."

The rest of the article was all about the offended Chinese professional magicians.

XX's menu of videos looked pretty cool, and if I were a kid in a small province of China, with no access to magicians, magic books, or magic shops, this website would be Nirvana to me.

I'm sure no kid has the money to buy a Losander Floating Table, but with XX's video maybe she could build one, and maybe she adds something to make it better.

[XX = RK EDITS]

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 14th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Bull.

Look, the realities of exposure are that we often give it more power than it would if ignored.

But this isn’t some service to the community. This is someone who is choosing to make money by giving away secrets which aren’t his to give away.

One - his channel is monetized so he clearly isn’t doing it out of the goodness of his heart. And two, the masked magician - I’m forcing magicians to come up with something new was a transparent attempt at justification then as it is now. When people see something they have been exposed to, they always believe it’s the same thing. Worse, he is reducing magic to nothing but secrets.

He isn’t a good person helping the lost youth of China - he is a hack thief who instead of coming up with these new ideas he wants to usher in, is merely profiting on the work of others.

There is no evidence that this is good for magic.

Defending him makes one look naive.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Leo Garet » July 14th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Regarding Brad Henderson and "Bull".

Agree.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Moore » July 14th, 2019, 1:56 pm

I'm sure no kid has the money to buy a Losander Floating Table, but with XX's video maybe she could build one, and maybe she adds something to make it better.


It’s barely 1% of magicians with money and ethics who actually bother to truely adjust, scrutinise and improve the props and routines they purchase to suit themselves so I’d be surprised if people with less time, money, resources, ethics and get-up-and go would be innovative and creative at a higher rate.

It’s a justification that’s trotted out all the time for stealing other people’s creations; in 27 years in the business I’ve yet to see a single copy/rip off of my work that was an improvement or refinement; they all always look like a cheaper, less original, early prototype of what I’ve done.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 14th, 2019, 8:52 pm

The person's name who we are talking about is apparently not even allowed to be mentioned on this forum. This person (XX) has not done anything illegal (bootleg DVDs, etc.), but their name is forbidden from being mentioned. Wow. Extra wow (and irony) that this is a person living in China. But there's no logic to censorship I guess. A magician who committed illegal (and reprehensible) acts against children - his name can still be mentioned here. A magician's blog that routinely has graphic sexist commentary - he can still be linked to from here. But a kid in China who makes videos of how tricks are done - he is persona non grata!

It's my opinion that there are tiers of appreciation for magic. I don't believe the spectator's experience must necessarily end at being fooled. Magicians have put that wall up. Why are spectators never allowed over it? No other arts put up that wall. If a person wants to gaze at a painting or see a movie or listen to a song, and then leave it at that, fine. But if they want to understand more - about how said piece of art was made, then they should not be blocked from doing so. And please do not say it is entirely up to the artist whether or not to allow them to peek behind the curtain. What are reviewers then? The only caveat is that the reviewer declares "spoiler alert." And that is what XX does when he says "revealed" in the title. Reviewers are paid, why shouldn't XX get money for his explanations (my preferred term instead of "exposure"), some of which may indeed lead to sparking an interest in learning magic.

And Tom M., you're making a false analogy. XX is not a manufacturer ripping off and selling other's creations. And nor is the young aspiring magician who chooses to try and build the trick (and yes, perhaps improve it) for themselves after watching the video.

But of course, the esteemed Magic Circle still won't even allow Penn and Teller to be members. In the art of magic, it seems, it can only be the magician who determines how much of the art the spectator is allowed appreciate (while still remaining a spectator). And that line is drawn at the knowledge of secrets. Sad.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 14th, 2019, 10:44 pm

Peter.

We don’t mention the name of the exposor because no good comes from that beyond advertising exposure - which is what the person wants and which is potentially damaging to the art form.

Mentioning the name of a an alleged child predator does not damage the art form (at least not anymore than already damaged by the action of one associated with it ) and can serve as protection for those who may not be aware.

There is a fundamental difference between magic and every other art form - and that is the specific feeingful response of a logical impossibility.

Without that you do NOT have the experience of magic.

When one knows the method - it becomes impossible to convey the experience of magic.

Sure, you can convey lots of emotions. You can be super duper entertaining even.

But you are NOT conveying the experience of magic.

So none of the other art forms you mention (which can symbolize the experience of the impossible - but not convey it directly) cannot be rendered impotent - be divested of their most unique and salient dynamic - by exposure to the artists’ methods.

This is untrue for magic.

The problem is less, in my mind, the availability of the ‘secret’ and more the fact that channels like this hack/thief’s do no more than perpetuate the unhelpful notion that magic is about the secrets.

I don’t want to encourage people to believe this is true, because turning magic into mere puzzles is perhaps the worst thing we can do to our art. We are rendering something inherently profound into something trivial. (To paraphrase Max)

Your naivety (or idealism) has you believe that people who are serious about magic have no other resources than free YouTube videos. And that when given this free information they value it, nurture it, and become contributors to the art form.

I have yet to see a case of that.

What I do see is a bunch of people who think magic is a ‘catch me if you can’ game use videos like this to make them think they are smart, and then go out and become terrible audiences.

Why?

Because this exposure approach to magic teaches people it’s about the method.

So that’s all they care about.

It teaches them their job is to ‘catch’ the magician.

It makes it about the fooling, and not the feeling.

It is superficial, misguided, and never serves the art.

It is the path of those who have little creativity but want to cash in on the most purient of an audiences interests

It’s a peep show, but sadly, the people being exposed haven’t consented.

This man is a no better than a pimp.

But a cowardly pimp - because he doesn’t even turn out his own tricks. He just profits on the work of others who he happily abuses and discards.

Because why not.

It’s not illegal. So it must be good.

Right????

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 15th, 2019, 12:17 am

Brad Henderson wrote:When one knows the method - it becomes impossible to convey the experience of magic.


One can experience the magic, and then learn the method without harm to the initial magic experience. I know that the standard line is that once a spectator learns the secret they will be disappointed and dismissive. But I've begun questioning that line of thinking as an absolute. I believe there are possibilities where a spectator can choose to learn the method after the fact, and then appreciate both being fooled and the way they were fooled.

As an example, I've written elsewhere about the experience of how a good magic lecture can function as a public performance. It contains both the tricks and explanations. For some who want to experience and learn a little more about magic, this would be an entertaining evening. Why should that not be an option? Why can't that be explored as another tier in the presentation of magic?

But that's just one example. What XX is doing may seem gratuitous based on long-established "rules" of conduct regarding the magic oath, but I feel it is short-sighted to reflexively fall back on this dogma without hesitation. If his viewers are being entertained by both the initial magic and then the explanation, then what's the problem? Is there any evidence that these viewers will stop liking magic? I would argue that these viewers will actually watch more magic (explanations or not) because of their interest in the methods.

But magicians don't want to explore the motivations and interests of the spectator. They just want to fool them and end it there.

Maybe I am naive (or overly idealistic), but I do not see the audiences of these videos as "catch me if you can" people who want to go ruin the next magic show they attend. What I do see in XX's videos is excitement and energy about magic (all of it - not just the performance). I did not detect any disrespect or mocking of the creators of the tricks he was explaining. And I think there are different types of viewers of these videos (would-be magicians, "super fans"), and that all of them should be welcomed.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jackpot » July 15th, 2019, 1:29 am

To Mr. Ross:

I have also watched a few of the videos and don't speak the language used in the videos. I have seen teaching videos and these are not teaching videos. XX is not going into enough depth to be teaching. He is simply revealing and exposing. Teaching is much harder and time consuming. He is also revealing marketed items which may not be illegal, but is unethical and immoral.

Censorship is not the issue here. We are being allowed to discuss XX and what he is doing. If it is important for XX's name to be revealed than you may shout it from the mountain tops. But is the form obligated to promote an individual who undermines some of its basic principles? I hope not.

I have seen a number of magic lectures and also consider them to be good performances. The presenters of those lectures have performed an effect, and then, not just exposed it, but taught the effect and explained their thinking. XX does not do this. In the videos I watched he showed videos of others performing and then quickly showed the method behind the effect. This was not substantive, it was gratuitous.

You state, "But magicians don't want to explore the motivations and interests of the spectator. They just want to fool them and end it there." I disagree. Good magicians do care about the motivations and interests of the spectators. They don't just want to fool them and end it there. But this is exactly what XX does. XX's format: Here's someone else performing, here's the secret and we're done. His whole focus is on the puzzle. Videos like those he produces are more likely to create the type of magicians who just present puzzles rather than those who entertain and create wonder.

While some of your points are valid, XX is a poor choice to support them. Please continue watching, defending and promoting him if you wish. I won't be. I don't understand the language, but I understand him quite well. He's in it for the money and doesn't provide enough substance to warrant my time.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Tom Moore » July 15th, 2019, 4:10 am

And Tom M., you're making a false analogy. XX is not a manufacturer ripping off and selling other's creations. And nor is the young aspiring magician who chooses to try and build the trick (and yes, perhaps improve it) for themselves after watching the video.


Firstly, even if he isn't a manufacturer it is this sort of exposure video that makes people think tricks are "in the public domain" and discourages them from doing any research in to the history of the effect they then seek to copy which results in the market being flooded with worse versions of the original effect. This also leads to one-man-operation magic builders popping up that manufacture rip-offs to sell.
Secondly, by definition anyone watching these particular exposure videos in order to replicate a trick isn't someone who wants to know the details or has any real research or development experience that they will be bringing to the trick.

Without knowing the history and reasons behind why certain design choices were made in the creation of a trick anyone who copies (and tries to "improve") a trick are destined to stumble blindly forward repeating mistakes. I have significant hands on experience with this, barely a week goes by when i'm not alerted to someone somewhere who has ripped off one of my designs and made a worse version in the process because they have missed an important detail or completely misunderstood how and why key elements work. The very things you say won't happen are happening and the very improvements you say will occur never do occur.

With regards to the general idea of a magician taking someones creation and improving it to make something better - Every designer in every field I've encountered is upset and hurt when their work is just knocked off but also every creative I've ever met is always keen to speak to people about the history and theory behind their creations and more than willing to share thoughts and experience with anyone who is clearly looking to improve on or jump off from the designers original creation.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby erdnasephile » July 15th, 2019, 8:30 am

Agree with Brad Henderson. There isn't much question why XX is doing what he is doing.

From the article posted by Jack Shalom:

In seven months, that clip has racked up 1.6 million views. According to XX, trading secrets for clicks -- and thus profit -- has become an increasingly common practice among young Chinese magicians.

I'm sure "likes" and false ego has something to do with it as well.

It's the same reason why Alex Stone wrote his lame book. IMHO, these acts have nothing to do with advancement of the art, protests to the contrary (on the part of Mr. Stone).

(And RogerM is correct about how Chinese culture regards [or fails to regard] intellectual property.)

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 15th, 2019, 8:38 am

Peter.

You ignore a critical difference - intent.

One can explain/teach methods in a manner which leads to a further appreciation of magic as an art form.

Absolutely. (I have no concern with silly ‘oaths’ or tradition for the sake of tradition).

But that requires an intent to do so and a careful approach to realize that.

These videos indicate neither.

It’s like art - one artist can offer an exploration of the human form that involves nudity in a manner that transcends the purient gaze and mere pornographic arousal. Those people usually aren’t exhibiting their work on the pages of glossy magazines being sold behind the counter at 7-11.

This is nothing but magic porn. (And yes, many magic lectures are nothing more than magic porn as well. They are often little more than magic shows where at the end you peek behind the curtain. I do not think they serve the art well either.)

And yes, is it possible some well cultivated eye could look at a hustler magazine and appreciate the lighting and use of shadows to convey perspective - yeah. Maybe.

But that’s not what the magazine’s intent is.

This guy is trading on the work and traditions of other artists in order to make a buck in the most base manner possible.

That’s it.

That’s all this is.

It smacks of ideological desperation to suggest otherwise.

And really - if you did care so much about these information starved budding magicians - wouldn’t you want for them a better instructor whose goals had their interests in mind?

Supporting the work of this hack/thief isn’t helping those who you claim you want to help. All you manage to do is keep a terrible teacher in the forefront because - well, why not?

Magic deserves better.

The people who truly want to learn magic deserve better.

Let’s not support those who are unwilling to give either the art or its potential artists what they truly need.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby CraigOusterling » July 15th, 2019, 9:53 am

Roger M. wrote:...It's absolutely pointless to link to Asian exposure sites. In doing so you're projecting Western ethics on a culture that doesn't remotely partake of the same line of thinking.


Ethics and cultural differences aside I think this has more to do with communistic beliefs: https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts ... perty.html

Intrinsically, Youtube is supporting communism by allowing the little pr!ck to profit from it?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Bill Mullins » July 15th, 2019, 11:56 am

Are they not also supporting capitalism by allowing the little prick to profit from it?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 15th, 2019, 12:06 pm

But Brad, if we take away the hyped toys, the lure of "secret", and the smug conflation of knowledge with ability ... that whittles the market down so far it's difficult to justify the costs of producing items at all.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 15th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:But Brad, if we take away the hyped toys, the lure of "secret", and the smug conflation of knowledge with ability ... that whittles the market down so far it's difficult to justify the costs of producing items at all.


Never said exposure was the ONLY thing bad for the art of magic.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 15th, 2019, 3:12 pm

If one categorizes XX's videos as magic porn (Playboy, Hustler), then Fool Us must be the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue of magic. They come right up to edge, exposure-wise.

And as far as "educating" the public that secrets aren't what's most important in magic, then P&T must be in the wrong as well - after all, the show is called "Fool Us." It shines a bright light on the one thing you say shouldn't be focused on.

I think whether magicians like it or not, laymen see magic for what it intrinsically is - a challenge to their mind. People react differently to this challenge - some love being fooled and never want to know the secret. Some feel it's a swindle and get angry ("I don't like magic!). And others enjoy being fooled, but feel they want to know the secret in order to complete the experience. Why do we turn our backs on these spectators?

XX's videos may be unseemly "porn" to some magicians, but by labeling them that way, we also put down the viewers who enjoy them.
By denigrating this tier of magic experience, it smacks of "Make Magic Great Again!"

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 15th, 2019, 3:58 pm

You have accurately described the problem with fool us - it does put the focus on the wrong part/most superficial part of the magical experience.

To their credit, they tend to use their segments to discuss other elements if performance, but the basic premise is not helpful for the perception of magic as an art form.

(Though one must do what one must do to convince tv execs to air magic in today’s reality TV world)

There is no racism in the observation that magic is more than secrets and puzzles. And I disagree that magic is intrinsically a challenge to the mind.

It’s not, or at least it doesn’t need to be.

It’s true that many magicians take this approach because they may be afraid of the power required to make it more than that, or the responsibility that follows.

Most magicians are afraid of magic.

That’s why they do tricks.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 15th, 2019, 9:40 pm

Peter Ross wrote:If one categorizes XX's videos as magic porn (Playboy, Hustler), then Fool Us must be the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue of magic. They come right up to edge, exposure-wise. ...

The opening announcements make it clear that P&T enjoy being deceived. The audience gets to see fine performances. Their hostess, Alyson Hannigan, does the "willing volunteer" part to serve as committee for the audience at home. Then the performer gets a some pleasant review comments. The base audience hook is whether P&T will be giving away a "FU" prize. And then the hosts perform a piece of their own. Please, it's not porn so much as an advertisement for our craft. :)
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 15th, 2019, 11:16 pm

Jonathan, your characterization of the show is seen through rose-colored glasses. The "hook" is not whether P&T give away a prize - its whether they are fooled by the acts (Hint: The title of the show gives it away). I wonder, would the show be the same hit if it was just "P&T Presents Magic," or some such, where acts perform and P&T give a prize for the best one?

The majority of the performers don't just get "some pleasant review comments." In the cringy-est moment of the show, they are borderline (in my opinion) humiliated by being forced to admit that they didn't fool P&T, and slink off the stage.

I find it amusing that people (including P&T themselves) downplay the fool-us aspect of the program. I think that's precisely the hook that keeps people watching. And I don't think it would even be the same if P&T simply said, "You didn't fool us." The "soft-porn" of Penn walking on eggs talking about the methods is crucial to the formula.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 16th, 2019, 10:52 am

@Pete, I stand my my support for the P&T magic showcase done as "fool us". The whole "cringy-est moment" of the show format is just another way of reminding folks that the method behind the trick is not the magic. They're a little bit carny in approach but have consistently offered quality entertainment without putting focus on magic methods for over thirty years. Even their cups and balls routine. The patter may sound like a dismissive exposure but the end result of discovering the large balls under the clear cups speaks for itself. They make the case for our craft as distinct from dance, juggling, pitching product, ballyhoo, or presenting vignettes. Look at Teller's performance of the red ball routine (and Penn's supposedly cutting the thread). :D
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Bill Mullins » July 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Peter Ross wrote: I wonder, would the show be the same hit if it was just "P&T Presents Magic," or some such?


For one thing, they wouldn't be able to have a trophy with a big "F U" on it.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 16th, 2019, 3:23 pm

XX's name is not to be mentioned here in order to prevent people from easily searching for his YouTube videos.
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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby erdnasephile » July 16th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:@Pete, I stand my my support for the P&T magic showcase done as "fool us".


Agreed. Fool Us is indeed a showcase of some of the best magic I've seen in years that likely never would have gotten on television otherwise. The one consistent thing that comes through to me is the true love P & T have for magic. Many times, they go out of their way to respect the performers (even those who are less able), and protect the methods as much as possible. In addition, they have shown respect and honor to those legends who sometimes clearly did not fool them.

With that in mind (and with all due respect) oblique comparisons to the blatant thievery perpetrated by XX do not seem particularly apt, IMHO.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Peter Ross » July 16th, 2019, 10:48 pm

XX has posted a 7-minute video discussing the CNN article, "The traditional Chinese magicians calling for greater censorship of their ancient tricks" from a few days ago that Jack S. posted a link to earlier.

If anyone can translate, I'd love to hear what he had to say for himself. In the meantime, I read many of the translated comments to that video. Here are a couple:

"Watching the magic show is a surprise, seeing the magic secret is also a surprise."

"You poured their rice bowl and they hate you. But as an ordinary audience, I like to see the secret."

I think those who are all up in arms over this young man need to take a step back and reflect on the "ordinary audience" of today. These people are not your enemies nor are they the enemy of magic. Those who have accused XX of being a thief - as far as I could tell, every marketed item he explained, he seemed to have bought for himself. In fact, in several of the videos, he unboxes the items he received in the mail (One comment made reference to him spending his own pocket money on the magic). So a lot of these videos are no different than ordinary unboxing videos of toys, appliances, electronics, etc. In fact, XX also has unboxing videos of some kooky toys as well. As for the "ancient" secrets that he explains - many are simple sleight-of-hand tricks.

The invective I've seen addressed to XX in this thread disheartens me. These are kids in China who love magic, and for many of them, the internet is the only way they'll ever see some of these tricks. So they like to see the secret as well. Does that not make them a worthy audience?

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Joe Lyons » July 17th, 2019, 8:33 am

Peter Ross wrote:Those who have accused XX of being a thief - as far as I could tell, every marketed item he explained, he seemed to have bought for himself. In fact, in several of the videos, he unboxes the items he received in the mail (One comment made reference to him spending his own pocket money on the magic).


Purchasing an effect doesn't give him exposure rights any more than purchasing a DVD gives me the right to play the film on YouTube.

Being able to do something on the internet doesn't make it legal, and even if it's legal it doesn't make it right.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Brad Henderson » July 17th, 2019, 8:42 am

Peter.

No. It doesn’t.

Tha art or magic is the creating of illusions. It is not the destruction of them.

These people who praise him don’t want to experience the art of magic, they are puzzlers who want methods to puzzles.

It is reasonable to desire that ones art not be reduced to mere puzzles, especially when that attitude when reinforced only makes it more challenging to create the experience of magic - not because secrets are told, but because it reinforces the wrong Attitude required for the audiences successful participation in the art

We don’t need more magicians. And we especially don’t need more magicians who are approaching the art with an attitude that renders it little
More than trivial puzzles.

And surprise is the most superficial of all responses to the magical moment. A snake can elicits surprise. A fart in church elicits surprise.

Surprise is the pornographic response to magic - it is superficial and lacks transcendence

There are people starving in the world. Would we want the food their are given to only reinforce their hunger or worse make them ill?

Giving them secrets - especially in the manner done - is not the path to make artistic magicians.

You are merely continuing to starve them for what they need to be a real magician. You are literally turning magic into a commodity no different from toys and electronics.

And while this hack may have paid for the props, those are not his secrets and ideas to give away. If he wants to create a show that’s about giving away secrets to illusions he creates - let him create his own illusions and secrets and give those away.

But he seems unable to unwilling to do that work,
Doesn’t he. And he has the audacity to claim that his exposure is good because it will force
Other magicians to do what he won’t /can’t.

He is a thief. And a fence. He profits from
Stolen goods.

Nothing good comes from defending him.

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Re: Magic Community in TOTAL SILENCE as Youtube Magician EXPOSES Hundreds of Magic Tricks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 17th, 2019, 9:07 am

Peter Ross wrote:...
"Watching the magic show is a surprise, seeing the magic secret is also a surprise."

"You poured their rice bowl and they hate you. But as an ordinary audience, I like to see the secret."...
If you can perform something which looks like an exposure but instead leads to a greater mystery - good for you. In case some here have forgotten:
7. How closely flattery resembles friendship! It not only apes friendship, but outdoes it, passing it in the race; with wide-open and indulgent ears it is welcomed and sinks to the depths of the heart, and it is pleasing precisely wherein it does harm. Show me how I may be able to see through this resemblance! An enemy comes to me full of compliments, in the guise of a friend. Vices creep into our hearts under the name of virtues, rashness lurks beneath the appellation of bravery, moderation is called sluggishness, and the coward is regarded as prudent; there is great danger if we go astray in these matters. So stamp them with special labels.
8. Then, too, the man who is asked whether he has horns on his head *1 is not such a fool as to feel for them on his forehead, nor again so silly or dense that you can persuade him by means of argumentation, no matter how subtle, that he does not know the facts. Such quibbles are just as harmlessly deceptive as the juggler's cup and dice, in which it is the very trickery that pleases me. But show me how the trick is done, and I have lost my interest therein. And I hold the same opinion about these tricky word-plays; for by what other name can one call such sophistries? Not to know them does no harm, and mastering them does no good *2.

*1 It is reasonable to expect that if you have not lost a thing you must still have it, yes? If so, have you lost the horns on your head? No? Then you must still have them. Check and see. :D

*2 Better to know such things, as accepting a quibble in place of specific reason or context easily leads to further sophistry. ;)
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