A Plunger Question

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Michael Close
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A Plunger Question

Postby Michael Close » May 26th, 2018, 3:42 pm

A question for the hive mind: who invented the effect in which you alternatively out-jog five cards and then plunge (push) them back into the deck, thus plunging out four cards. This is repeated, plunging out three, then two, and finally a single card, which is the selection. I can see an illustration in my head but I can't remember the source. Thanks.

Jim Martin
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Jim Martin » May 26th, 2018, 3:44 pm

I believe it was Jack McMillen.
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Michael Close
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Michael Close » May 26th, 2018, 3:49 pm

McMillen used it for the rising cards.

I found it. It's in Greater Magic.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 26th, 2018, 9:08 pm

Everything is in Greater Magic.
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Joe Mckay » May 26th, 2018, 9:43 pm

Eddie Fields has the best version of this trick.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby performer » May 26th, 2018, 10:11 pm

Harry Lorayne has it in the last chapter of Close Up Card Magic. However, the in and out plunger principle may or may not have been invented by Jack McMillen--I really have no idea. However, he certainly invented it for the Rising Cards which isn't quite the same thing. I have been using the plunger rising card for decades. What I like about it apart from the impromptu aspect is that it is completely angleproof. It is in Expert Card Technique and is credited to Jack McMillen there.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Dave Le Fevre » May 27th, 2018, 2:20 am

I bought ECT more than fifty years ago, and that Rising Cards method (but with a lazier set-up) has often come in handy

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby The Burnaby Kid » May 27th, 2018, 4:49 am

Got a reference in Card Manipulations #5 that predates Greater Magic...?

http://themagicwiki.com/magos/www.thele ... 5/024.html

No credit given.

Edit: For the original principle itself, apparently the concept goes back as far as Sachs, although Gibson was the first to harness it?

http://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.ph ... _principle

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby performer » May 27th, 2018, 11:36 am

I never liked the squeezing/buckling idea in Expert Card Technique so I figured out a way to avoid it. It is actually quite unnecessary, not to mention suspicious and difficult.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Dave Le Fevre » May 28th, 2018, 4:46 am

That's in the One-Handed Plunger Method, I think. I've only ever used the Two-Handed Plunger Method.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby performer » May 28th, 2018, 5:44 am

Yes. I have also only used the two hand plunger method. I like the angleproof aspect of it.

Brad Henderson
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Brad Henderson » May 28th, 2018, 10:19 am

Ron Wohl showed to me a great handling of the rising cards using the plunger principle which he credited to Robert Houdin. I have not been able to find it in print though.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Philippe Billot » May 28th, 2018, 10:32 am

Robert-Houdin had a rising card but not with the plunger principle

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 28th, 2018, 11:31 am

I believe the Robinson/Krenzel pinky On the Up and Up Rise makes the plunger principle obsolete. There is nothing to hide beneath the deck and the rise can be performed openly with one hand, or two if desired.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Michael Close » May 28th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Just to clarify.

The effect I was looking for is not the Rising Cards using the plunger principle. It's a completely different effect whose creator was unknown to Hilliard.

Thanks to all for chiming in.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby JustinM » May 28th, 2018, 1:53 pm

Michael,

There is the "Subway Trick" in Hugard's Magic Monthly, V. 6, No. 8, January 1949 by Martin Gardner.

It is the exact effect you described... I'm constantly going through Hugard's Magic Monthly and remembered that it was in there....




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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Brad Henderson » May 28th, 2018, 2:10 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:Robert-Houdin had a rising card but not with the plunger principle


not according to ron wohl. He showed me a handling that was attributed to Robert Houdin, and it was very nicely put together. Perhaps this was one of those things that has just circulated off the printed page.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Michael Close » May 28th, 2018, 2:29 pm

Justin:

I think there's a typo in the Hugard's write-up. The trick isn't called The Subway Trick in Greater Magic. It's called the Fade-away Cards.

But yes, it is basically the same effect. The version in Greater Magic adds a wrinkle by using a one-way deck to determine which card the spectator selected.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Philippe Billot » May 29th, 2018, 1:34 am

Brad Henderson wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:Robert-Houdin had a rising card but not with the plunger principle


not according to ron wohl. He showed me a handling that was attributed to Robert Houdin, and it was very nicely put together. Perhaps this was one of those things that has just circulated off the printed page.


I'll be curious to read this. Have you a reference?

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Edwin Corrie » May 29th, 2018, 3:23 am

Michael Close wrote:Just to clarify.

The effect I was looking for is not the Rising Cards using the plunger principle. It's a completely different effect whose creator was unknown to Hilliard.

Thanks to all for chiming in.


Not as old as Robert-Houdin, but another reference: I remember this from one of my very first magic books, "101 Best Magic Tricks" (1956) by Guy Frederick. It's a children's book with no credits, but it was presumably felt to be "public domain" by then. It's called The Push-Through Mystery - three cards are chosen and placed in the deck with the spectator's favourite one in the middle. Push them through twice and the selection is the only one showing. He also suggests wrapping the deck in a handkerchief, which might have inspired someone to turn it into a rising card effect. I still have my old English paperback edition (1959) and clearly remember both the trick and the unusual style of illustrations even now (the illustrations are different in the US edition).

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Brad Henderson » May 29th, 2018, 1:54 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:Robert-Houdin had a rising card but not with the plunger principle


not according to ron wohl. He showed me a handling that was attributed to Robert Houdin, and it was very nicely put together. Perhaps this was one of those things that has just circulated off the printed page.


I'll be curious to read this. Have you a reference?


No. and it kills me

Ron was a very smart man and knew a lot of material that wasn’t generally known. While it is possible he was mistaken in his crediting, given his track record i am inclined to consider his claim at least reasonable.

Sadly my memory of the handling has faded. though i may have some paper scraps with notes from the conference somewhere

the operative term being - somewhere.

i recall that the handling took advantage of shaved cards as well as the plunger principle. I also recall thinking the handling getting into position was very well designed.

I wonder if escorial did a session on the rising cards and if perhaps that’s where he may have come in contact with or shared the reference?

I’m always keeping my eye out.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Philippe Billot » May 29th, 2018, 2:39 pm

Wait and see!

Thank Brad

Bill Mullins
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Bill Mullins » May 29th, 2018, 2:48 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:I wonder if escorial did a session on the rising cards and if perhaps that’s where he may have come in contact with or shared the reference?


Apparently yes, in 1974. I've only got a couple of Mueller's sets of notes from the convention, and don't recall if I have (or if one exists) for the Rising Cards. But if such exists, that would certainly be a place to look.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Brad Henderson » May 29th, 2018, 4:22 pm

i don’t know that the reference would be there. But it’s a good place to start.

and of course, he could have given me incorrect information. It would be a good thing to track down for sure.

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 29th, 2018, 4:29 pm

The five/three/one item is in Close-Up Card Magic?

The plunger principle... recalling a comment about the Stevens control.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 29th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Michael Close wrote:A question for the hive mind: who invented the effect in which you alternatively out-jog five cards and then plunge (push) them back into the deck, thus plunging out four cards. This is repeated, plunging out three, then two, and finally a single card, which is the selection. I can see an illustration in my head but I can't remember the source. Thanks.



Figure 106, Close-Up Card Magic. "Plunge-Thru"
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

performer
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Re: A Plunger Question

Postby performer » May 30th, 2018, 5:51 am

I mentioned Close Up Card Magic ages ago. I do wish people would pay attention. In the Curry Turnover section. On page 224 rather than page 106.


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