Michael and I Tried

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Todd Karr
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Michael and I Tried

Postby Todd Karr » September 22nd, 2015, 4:26 pm

Hi, everyone:

Michael Weber is one of the most knowledgeable and hard-working professionals in our field, and while he and I really tried to have his generously offered annotations be part of the upcoming Martin Gardner book, Impromptu, Michael's busy international schedule prevented us from making it happen.

However, everyone's still going to get an amazing, highly expanded book, full of Martin's notes, annotations, interviews, hundreds of added illustrations, and more surprises. Watch for news in October. If anyone does want a refund, though, just write me at toddkarr@aol.com.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Dustin Stinett » September 22nd, 2015, 5:07 pm

Trust me: You don't want a refund.

Bill Mullins
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Bill Mullins » September 22nd, 2015, 5:13 pm

Well that kinda sucks.

New material from Weber was one of the things that has been keeping me optimistically waiting for the book.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 22nd, 2015, 7:03 pm

There was a tremendous amount of new material collected for this expanded version by Martin Gardner over many years. That in an of itself is an excellent reason to buy it.
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Ted M
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Ted M » September 22nd, 2015, 7:23 pm

$40,000+ worth of the original book was pre-sold as:

Featuring Commentaries by Michael Weber
[...]
Commentaries throughout by Michael Weber
[...]
we've added new period illustrations as well as Michael Weber's commentaries throughout the book.

Without the Weber commentary throughout, this is a drastically different book than the one Todd Karr pre-sold for more than 9 1/2 years. This is not the book that people paid for.

This is a 9+ year, $40,000+ Bait and Switch with a different, inferior, partial substitute -- and that's if it even actually reaches print.

On top of that...

How will all the still-living pre-order customers be located to deliver this substitute book? Many people have changed address (both physical and email, potentially many times over), and postal forwarding orders expire.

Are refunds issued with interest???

What happens to the funds of all the elderly magicians who paid and DIED waiting for the book over the past decade?? Does Todd just pocket their money? And double-dip by selling those books again to others?

Rigonally
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Rigonally » September 23rd, 2015, 8:28 am

This is pretty ridiculous! Ignoring the fact that Todd took over 9 years to produce this book, he is now changing what he promised.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby El Mystico » September 23rd, 2015, 9:25 am

I'm disappointed.
But, Todd is immediately offering a refund. That's fair.

However, I'm confused too - I thought Michel handed over his annotations years ago.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Joe Mckay » September 23rd, 2015, 10:35 am

I spoke to Michael about this a few years ago.

He said he had sent in the annotations and was waiting along with everyone else for the book.

Something doesn't add up. I can only assume Weber withdrew his efforts since he was sick of being asked about the book.

I really like Todd Karr's books and will always support his efforts. And I will pick up a copy of this one as well. But it is hard to fool magicians that after 9 years Weber was suddenly too busy to be involved with the book.

After 9 years of delays - I think magicians deserve the courtesy of hearing the real reason for such a sudden change to the book.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby erdnasephile » September 23rd, 2015, 10:58 am

I'm a little disappointed, but decided years ago to hang in there, so we'll see.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby performer » September 23rd, 2015, 11:07 am

Ted M wrote:$40,000+ worth of the original book was pre-sold as:

Featuring Commentaries by Michael Weber
[...]
Commentaries throughout by Michael Weber
[...]
we've added new period illustrations as well as Michael Weber's commentaries throughout the book.

Without the Weber commentary throughout, this is a drastically different book than the one Todd Karr pre-sold for more than 9 1/2 years. This is not the book that people paid for.

This is a 9+ year, $40,000+ Bait and Switch with a different, inferior, partial substitute -- and that's if it even actually reaches print.

On top of that...

How will all the still-living pre-order customers be located to deliver this substitute book? Many people have changed address (both physical and email, potentially many times over), and postal forwarding orders expire.

Are refunds issued with interest???

What happens to the funds of all the elderly magicians who paid and DIED waiting for the book over the past decade?? Does Todd just pocket their money? And double-dip by selling those books again to others?


This post amuses me. You are what we call a "nause" in the grafting business!

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 23rd, 2015, 1:31 pm

Do not assign motives or blame unless you are intimately familiar with the details of a project. In this case we are not. We must accept Todd at his word until, or if, we hear otherwise.
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performer
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby performer » September 23rd, 2015, 3:41 pm

If he is offering a refund I don't see what more he can do. As for the old magicians who have died off I see no evidence that he is not going to send the books anyway. After all, he isn't to know who has died off and who hasn't. If they aren't around to read the book so be it. The books will have been sent and that is the end of the matter.

Come to think of it I think any complainers should concern themselves with their own problems regarding delivery or missing content and not make themselves self appointed guardians of elderly magicians who may or may not be deceased. And it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if our resident "nause" hasn't even ordered the book himself. If he has then all he has to do is either wait for the book or ask for a refund.

As for "interest" on the refunds all I can say is "have you heard the one about the three bears?"

Mark Collier
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Mark Collier » September 24th, 2015, 1:25 am

I think it is another sign of poor customer service that Todd Karr makes a post on a public forum but does not send emails directly to those of us that have trusted and waited for almost a decade for him to deliver on the promise he made when he took our money.

For him to cast the blame w/o apology on Michael Weber is an enormous pile of BS. Unless Michael and Todd have a private agreement, I expect to see a libel suit against Todd Karr in the near future,

For almost a decade, Todd has been saying some version of "within the year".

Micheal Weber has been telling people for years that he has already given Todd all of his notes and annotations.

Who do you believe?

At this point. I trust Micheal Weber more than I trust Todd Karr.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 24th, 2015, 1:53 am

I don't see where libel would enter into this. Are you an attorney?
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mr_goat
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby mr_goat » September 24th, 2015, 3:52 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I don't see where libel would enter into this. Are you an attorney?


Well, if it is a lie that Weber couldn't finish the annotations (when many thought he had finished them years ago), then that could be libel. I don't think you need to be a lawyer to understand the very simple definition of the word.
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Bibliophage
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Bibliophage » September 24th, 2015, 5:47 am

I did the unthinkable and contacted Weber.

He explained that he did finish and deliver annotations long ago.

Then time passed.

And he was contacted by Todd who explained that the project never died, but that he (Todd) was doing an all-new layout and design and asked if Weber would provide new annotations fitting the new layout and division of material. Weber agreed, but no formal schedule was discussed.

Todd apparently sent Weber samples of the new chapters which were (I'm told) very different from the first time around, requiring a fresh start.

The mix of timing, schedules and the inclusion of other additional material meant that completing a full rewrite by Weber would guarantee 1) an even longer wait and 2) the need to print multiple volumes. The decision was to go to print now rather that wait and have a project that would have spanned two enormous volumes.

I asked if he had any intention of publishing just the annotations himself, and his reply was "not at the moment."

I, for one, am not happy with the decisions, but I'll wait to see the final product to decide if it was worth the wait.

performer
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby performer » September 24th, 2015, 8:09 am

This is why I dislike the concept of pre-ordering. I would never pre-order anything and if I ever produce material I will never offer pre-ordering. I did it once and it made me very nervous and I couldn't wait until the orders were sent out and I felt a great sigh of relief when it happened.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby erdnasephile » September 24th, 2015, 11:08 am

I wonder how many folks would purchase a separate book containing Mr. Weber's annotations?

There is precedence for something like this. Conley, Meyer, and Turner published a book of annotations for the Jinx that was actually quite well done. I believe another gentleman published his spiritual applications for the Tarbell Course a while back.

This case, of course, is different since said material was originally supposed to be included in the original book.

I'm still hoping one day, someone will publish annotations for both The Cervon Notebooks and the Bob Read cups and balls book.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Mark Collier » September 24th, 2015, 11:45 am

I reread Todd's post and I think Richard is right, it doesn't amount to libel but I would be pissed if I was Michael Weber. For Todd to imply that Michael is unavailable to complete his end of the agreement is an assault on his character.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 24th, 2015, 12:09 pm

I'll probably have to end up taking care of the Bob Read book myself because I haven't seen any movement from the original publisher.
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Q. Kumber
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Q. Kumber » September 24th, 2015, 12:56 pm

Phil Willmarth was working on the Irv Weiner book.

That is one book I would love to see.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Ian Kendall » September 24th, 2015, 1:58 pm

I'll probably have to end up taking care of the Bob Read book


Forgive my ignorance, but there's a Bob Read book coming?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 24th, 2015, 2:11 pm

Bob Read's books on Cups and Balls prints, which was published without the 30,000 word commentary he wrote ... the best part of the book.
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mr_goat
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby mr_goat » September 24th, 2015, 2:34 pm

[quote="Mark Collier"]I reread Todd's post and I think Richard is right, it doesn't amount to libel but I would be pissed if I was Michael Weber. For Todd to imply that Michael is unavailable to complete his end of the agreement is an assault on his character.[/quote]

Which, literally, is the definition of libel.

"anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents."
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Mark Collier
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Mark Collier » September 24th, 2015, 3:15 pm

I think the reason it's not libel is that the assault on Michael's character is implied rather than explicit.

Roger M.
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Roger M. » September 25th, 2015, 12:07 am

Plenty of "defamation by implication" libel cases have been won in the United States, as they have also been won elsewhere in the world.

I'd not want to be slinging implications about that weren't based in fact.
The defamation does not have to be overt to start the legal ball rolling against you.

Best to always speak the stone cold truth, which tends to protect one from such legal nightmares.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Brad Henderson » September 25th, 2015, 12:13 am

as one who has danced this dance, I will tell you that anyone can sue anyone for any reason. But as the players involved would be considers public figures in our field, and given the restrictions on what actually constitutes libel and the conditions required for it, one would have to go further than this.

Ted M
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Ted M » September 25th, 2015, 12:51 am

I can't think of another group that wastes more time talking about libel than magicians.

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Brad Henderson » September 25th, 2015, 12:52 am

lawyers?

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Pete McCabe » September 25th, 2015, 1:01 am

At least the lawyers are getting paid.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 25th, 2015, 1:13 am

In order to prove libel, you must prove that the statement or statements were made with malicious intent. That's not the case here.
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Mark Collier
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Mark Collier » September 25th, 2015, 2:23 pm

I am sorry I used the word libel.

I do feel that Todd isn't taking any responsibility when he says. "Michael's busy international schedule prevented us from making it happen."

I believe Michael Weber when he says he gave Todd the annotations years ago.

mr_goat
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby mr_goat » September 25th, 2015, 2:48 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:In order to prove libel, you must prove that the statement or statements were made with malicious intent. That's not the case here.


Are you a lawyer?

;)
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erdnasephile
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby erdnasephile » September 25th, 2015, 2:59 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I'll probably have to end up taking care of the Bob Read book myself because I haven't seen any movement from the original publisher.


Yes, please! I'd snap one up immediately. (Now if there were only some secret video of Mr. Read performing his routine...)

Brad Henderson
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Brad Henderson » September 25th, 2015, 3:27 pm

goat, also the rules establishing libel are MUCH harder to meet in the US than in the UK. this statement may qualify there, but not here.

Not a lawyer, but worked extensively with one when sued for libel over a magic product review.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 25th, 2015, 4:56 pm

No, Damian, but I know about libel.
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Syd
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Syd » September 25th, 2015, 4:58 pm

It's not libel.

Personally I am amazed that more people have not been outraged at the length of time he has taken preorders, promised the book, and not delivered. I wrote Todd over two years ago and he responded by promising the book by the end of the year and never delivered. It's disappointing, it's bad business, it's irresponsible.
Syd

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 25th, 2015, 4:59 pm

Mark Collier wrote:I do feel that Todd isn't taking any responsibility when he says. "Michael's busy international schedule prevented us from making it happen."

I believe Michael Weber when he says he gave Todd the annotations years ago.


What we have are two people saying two different things. No one, other than those two people, knows exactly what happened. In fact, you could probably speak with both of them, get two entirely different stories, and still find that things are no clearer than before.

Syd: you could have asked, and still can, for a refund at any time.
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Syd
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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby Syd » September 25th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Yes Richard, but that isn't the point is it?
Syd

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Re: Michael and I Tried

Postby performer » September 25th, 2015, 5:39 pm

What an awful discussion! What interaction between Todd and Michael have been going on is nobody's business except their own.

A refund offer had been made and that should be that. If you want the book then get it and just bite your tongue. If you don't want the book then accept the refund and still bite your tongue.

These things happen. Live with it.


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