The Genii Forum

Definitions aside, why not answer the question?

Seems like the adult thing to do...

/Combs hair

Still learning wrote:Definitions aside, why not answer the question?

Seems like the adult thing to do...

/Combs hair

Sorry, I just can't begin to answer a question asking how a straight man playing a camp gay man is more offensive than a straight man playing a straight man. It's like asking how chris rock is less offensive than al johnson.

But we both know you're just trolling, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

mrgoat wrote:
It's like asking how chris rock is less offensive than al johnson.

Yeah!

http://earlyaviators.com/ealjohns.htm

Dear Mr Kaufman, I can assure you that there is nothing fishy about me or my posts....I was directed here by an amateur magician friend of mine and as a very amateur magician myself, with a lifelong interest in magic I thought that this forum would be interesting. (Indeed it has been) I joined 2 days ago and registered under my own name and with a recognised UK based ISP...I am not hiding behind an anonymous Hotmail or Yahoo account...I stand to gain nothing by "Trolling". The mistake I made being a new boy, was to get involved in a "YAH BOO SUCKS" type back and forth with a person who after a bit of research I find is a prolific poster with very strong opinions....Nowt wrong with that, I have my own strong opinions...Had I read a few more of the gentleman in question's posts I would have realised that I was fighting a losing battle and given up whilst I was younger and less wrinkled. I would say that expressing or having opinions that are contrary to others does not a "Troll" make, and I would like to stay here. Therefore I can assure you that I will think twice if not thrice before locking horns with Monsieur Capricorn or anyone else here come to that. To paraphrase Wallace Shawn in the fabulous "Princess Bride" " -"Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.... Never get involved in a land war in Asia and Never get into a online debate with Mr Goat on his day off"

GlennWest wrote:

mrgoat wrote:
It's like asking how chris rock is less offensive than al johnson.

Yeah!

http://earlyaviators.com/ealjohns.htm

Thanks - now wondering how Al Jolson would have approached the Ruby Rhod character in Fifth Element or how Chris Rock would have done in The Jazz Singer.

Oh somedays the joys I find when I leave the machine and look up to see what yall is doing! Well... The new indexes are done and look hot iffin I do say so...

Tah kids!

Doomo wrote:Oh somedays the joys I find when I leave the machine and look up to see what yall is doing! Well... The new indexes are done and look hot iffin I do say so...

Tah kids!

Everything you do looks hot. Especially Rosie.

[quote="mrgoat"

Sorry, I just can't begin to answer a question asking how a straight man playing a camp gay man is more offensive than a straight man playing a straight man. It's like asking how chris rock is less offensive than al johnson.

But we both know you're just trolling, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

[/quote]

Convenient to hide behind the trolling nonsense to a question you cannot answer.

How is the Tony Sagittarius character not offensive to women? Or,is it only gays and blacks and Asians that in your mind are the objects of what you perceive as offensive humor?

And, you are the master troll on the *other* site.

Could someone please describe what Jeff Hobson does in his act that makes it insulting to gay men? Does he explicitly present himself as being both gay and a buffoon? Does he demean homosexuality? Or does he just play a campy character?

Because if he's just swishy, a lot of straight guys are like that. And a lot of gay guys aren't. There's no sexuality inherent in someone's demeanor. Yes, stereotypes are offensive. But does Hobson explicitly hinge a clear portrayal of homosexuality on stereotypes? Or is he just playing with the audience's assumptions?

And I think the comparisons between straight men portraying gay men, and people performing in blackface are ill-founded. Sexuality is an internal and fluid quality. Heterosexuals can become homosexuals. White people can't become black people. (Although, I guess, in magic anything is possible...)

Oooh are you ever in trouble

Here's a good example of his work...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MnjQnblVTE

One of the things you do not see here is the material he uses to blur the lines (in the minds of the audience) of whether or not he is gay.

One of his lines is:

"I'm not, I'm not ... I was, I was ... and I could be again for you!"

I do not find any of this "offensive." I just think it is tired. But I have seen him many times over the last 20 years. I can see both sides of the argument.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote: I joined 2 days ago and registered under my own name

You're a man and your real name is The Lovely Debbie?

Would you ask The Lovely Nani Darnell the same question (if you didn't already know)?

Marty, I'm straight, so my view is from the outside on this one, But I find Hobson's act terribly offensive. It embodies every negative cliche of a swishing queen solely for the purpose of creating laughs about Hobson's verbal and physical behavior. It is exactly the same, in my opinion, as blacking up or doing a fake "Chink" act that provokes laughter at badly pronounced words and misunderstanding of the English language.

Mr Frame, just to say that No my real name is not Debbie, that is my "username" on this forum. as an American you may not be aware that "The Lovely Debbie" (McGee) was the wife and assistant to a famous British magician ie Paul Daniels; who was a very big name in Magic (certainly in the UK) in the 70's and 80's. My comment regarding my registering under my real name (not my username) was because I had been accused of "Trolling" and I was trying to establish my Bona Fides. I started this thread asking the identity of the magician who I am now aware is Jeff Hobson. I understand that several members here find his act unpleasant, I don't personally, but I respect their viewpoint. perhaps my username and the topic involved led people to believe I was a "Gay -Bashing provocateur which I assure everybody here is most definitely not the case.

Not on display in Hobson's "Illusionists" act is his Asian (Oriental) buffoonery, reminiscent of Buddy Hackett's Chinese waiter act from 50 years ago. It might have been OKto lampoon Asians in the 1960s -- perhaps -- but it sure isn't now (IMHO).

One Asian woman who is my friend (she's an origami artiste) was deeply hurt when she viewed this.

In my opinion, Hobson goes for the low, easy humor which (again my opinion) is why he has never risen above the "B" list performers.

He has done some good work (such as his instructional DVD with Martin Nash), but the racist stuff makes him, for me, unwatchable and symptomatic of what prevents magic from rising to its potential. I have walked out on his act twice.

Compare him with Tommy Wonder. Hobson is a clown.

As for Roy "Chubby" Brown and other end-of-pier wonders, puh-leeze. He and his ilk are dinosaurs, a dying breed struggling for audiences and playing second fiddle to strippers.

Matt Field

Mr Field, Please note that I was mentioning Roy Brown merely to underline a point that there were still acts like his that were doing the rounds....also many "comedians" and acts going on in working mens clubs up and down the UK that certainly contain strong elements of racism and homophobia beyond anything that you may find in Hobson's act,....they may not be in the mainstream but they do exist, I was certainly not commending his act (or theirs come to that). Jimmy Carr, Frankie Boyle, and Jerry Sadowitz (a magician I much admire) are in the mainstream and do appeal to wide audiences. I have been present at all three performers live shows and will say that one could construe elements of racism, homophobia and sexism in all instances depending on your sensibilities.... I am not recommending them either merely making a point.

Speaking as a gay man, I have never found Jeff Hobson's act to be the least bit offensive. Nor have any of my gay magician friends ever commented negatively about him in my presence.

Jeff has and continues to perform in venues that most magicians would cut off their fingers to play and in my opinion he knows more about showmanship and stagecraft than Zarrow knew about the Zarrow shuffle.

Q. Kumber wrote: he knows more about showmanship and stagecraft than Zarrow knew about the Zarrow shuffle.

Easy there, Quentin.

I agree that Hobson knows a lot about stagecraft. The fact that some people are not offended by what he does is just swell. I, however, am offended.

I think he's taking the low road to magic, and I'm sure he couldn't care less about my opinion. In his opuinion (expressed right here on the Genii Forum) he's doing what he feels he needs to in order to make a buck. As I wrote back then, he might just as well take off his trousers, if audiences find that funny. I know some do.

Matt Field

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Mr Field, Please note that I was mentioning Roy Brown merely to underline a point that there were still acts like his that were doing the rounds....

You could find ONE act, whilst claiming there were many. And look at the venues Brown is playing. They are tiny. Shows that people just don't like that sort of thing anymore.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:also many "comedians" and acts going on in working mens clubs up and down the UK that certainly contain strong elements of racism and homophobia

Links? Or just more nonsense. Thought so. Not sure there even are any working men's clubs anymore. Hang on a sec, you are aware it is 2014, right?

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Jimmy Carr, Frankie Boyle, and Jerry Sadowitz (a magician I much admire) are in the mainstream and do appeal to wide audiences. I have been present at all three performers live shows and will say that one could construe elements of racism, homophobia and sexism in all instances depending on your sensibilities....

None of them are racist, sexist or homophobic no matter how often you say they are. I repeat, Boyle just won a large libel settlement after being called racist, so tread carefully.

You promised many posts ago that you would not post in this thread again, please stick to that rather that repeat things I've already pointed out are nonsense. THXBYE.

Still learning wrote:Convenient to hide behind the trolling nonsense to a question you cannot answer.

Well I'm just pointing out you are asking really stupid questions. Then you rephrase the same stupid question when I explain words you don't understand. It's like you are a 2 year old that wants a candy bar and keeps asking for it in different ways when you know you aren't allowed one because you are diabetic.

Still learning wrote:How is the Tony Sagittarius character not offensive to women?

What aspect of it do you think might possibly offend women? You have seen the video, seen all the women I select and seen them all crying with laughter, right?

Or are you just a no name troll nipping at the ankles of their betters?

Still learning wrote:And, you are the master troll on the *other* site.

No idea what you are on about. But reading back through your posts here, I don't think you have an idea either.

Thanks for playing, pick up your goody bag on your way out.

Mr Goat, you are correct I did say I was withdrawing from this thread, that was because the two of us pushing each other in the playground was getting tedious to myself and no doubt the casual reader….I responded to Mr Kaufman who considered my posts “fishy” as I wanted to explain myself and my reasons for being on this forum. I responded to Mr Frame as to why I had given myself the soubriquet “The Lovely Debbie” and then I responded to Mr Field who, I thought may have been under the misapprehension that I was somehow a fan of Roy Chubby Brown which is not the case……I feel that I must take you to task one last time as you have once more thrown down the gauntlet in my direction and I promise that this will be the last time I comment on your particular posts in this thread because in the face of obstinacy the Gods themselves battle in vain.

You say that.

You could find ONE act, whilst claiming there were many. And look at the venues Brown is playing. They are tiny. Shows that people just don't like that sort of thing anymore.

When I mention Roy Brown, Jerry Sadowitz, Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr you imply that Roy Brown is washed up and that no one buys tickets for him anymore….I would agree that he is not as popular as in his Heyday but I have just looked on his website and between October and the new year he will be doing 26 dates, several of these are large venues so he does indeed still have a substantial following despite your protestations to the contrary, mainly in the North of England I would agree (he has always been more of a Northern Comic) or doesn’t that count?….as for a link to working mens clubs….REALLY?.....And if I were to give you one link or a dozen, would you know the acts?.....

Links? Or just more nonsense. Thought so. Not sure there even are any working men's clubs anymore. Hang on a sec, you are aware it is 2014, right?

Mr G. you should try to get out more….life doesn’t stop at hove, there’s a big wide, wild world out there……yes working mens clubs still exist

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Jimmy Carr, Frankie Boyle, and Jerry Sadowitz (a magician I much admire) are in the mainstream and do appeal to wide audiences. I have been present at all three performers live shows and will say that one could construe elements of racism, homophobia and sexism in all instances depending on your sensibilities....


None of them are racist, sexist or homophobic no matter how often you say they are. I repeat, Boyle just won a large libel settlement after being called racist, so tread carefully

Please feel free to further this post to Boyle's lawyers….I find Boyle funny, even though it’s not fashionable among the “intelligentsia” but like it or not he tells racist and sexist jokes as do Carr and Sadowitz who I notice that you stubbornly refuse to refer to…..Just because they don’t make jokes a la Jim Davidson about Black people, doesn’t make them any less racist….

You promised many posts ago that you would not post in this thread again, please stick to that rather that repeat things I've already pointed out are nonsense. THXBYE.

Please see above

This whole back and forth came about because I said that I found Jeff Hobson funny and you said that you “and everybody else” found him offensive…..As for things you find offensive, in a post a few days ago regarding psychic Sally Morgan you said and I quote:

“The thing is, the public are, generally, VERY STUPID. They eat at McDonalds. They like X Factor. They believe in ridiculous things because it helps them get through the day, from Jebers to Sally.”

I’m not a McDonalds eater or a trash TV watcher myself, but how many people would find that remark offensive? Perhaps the next time you are performing at one of your sell-out shows you ask for a show of hands as to who eats at the Golden arches or watches X- factor and when they raise their hands may I suggest that you refund their money and remove them from your show, as no doubt they would be too dumb to appreciate your show or your crystalline wit.

PS I have edited this several times as I know you will come back with some ridiculous riposte. The Daily Mirror lost the case for calling Boyle "a racist comedian" I do not believe (neither did the jury) that Boyle is racist, but he himself says that he tells jokes using racist language to "highlight" the problems of racism. This is a "cake and eat it" situation, but by his own admission Boyle tells racist jokes. For the record I think that Jimmy Carr is also not a racist albeit his defence of the jokes he tells would be the same as Mr Boyle's. His tax affairs are of course another matter

Richard -- I believe you have said you are a fan of "Are You Being Served" and John Inman's Mr. Humphries.

To me, Hobson's camp character and Mr. Humphries come across similarly.

Do you perceive them differently? Is the fact that Inman was actually gay of relevance?

And as far as the portrayals of gay/camp characters goes, some may find this post on Nathan Lane in "The Nance" of interest (it includes a link to the play, from Live From Lincoln Center).

Nathan Lane as Albert in "The Birdcage" is a role played with such brilliance, that many consider it his very finest performance.

If ever there was a overly "effected" role, the role of Albert would be the torch bearer.

So, do those of you saying these types of performances are troublesome actually have any idea what you're talking about? ... or do you presume to be such experts on these matters that Nathan Lanes performance of Albert (ultimately a mincing queen) is worthy of your expert negative critique.

Let's be real, you really know absolutely nothing about performance and stagecraft, but feel obliged to comment anyway?
When talentless, straight men decide to be "outraged" at portrayals such as Lanes, all one can do is laugh out loud and accept that some people are simply not that intelligent.

Yes, Nathan Lane is gay ... and if you think that makes any difference in a role like Lane played in The Birdcage, you've zero credibility and your comments are truly irrelevant.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Mr Goat, you are correct I did say I was withdrawing from this thread

I wish you had kept to your word.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:When I mention Roy Brown, Jerry Sadowitz, Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr you imply that Roy Brown is washed up and that no one buys tickets for him anymore….

Obviously some old racist idiots (UKIP voters etc) buy tickets, but the size of venues he is playing on this tour show you how few and far between those disgusting people are nowadays, thankfully.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:I would agree that he is not as popular as in his Heyday but I have just looked on his website and between October and the new year he will be doing 26 dates,

I've just looked at the venues for tonight and the next couple of weeks. Less than half sold, and the venues are tiny.
Seems the fashion for disgusting homophobic racists isn't as large as you make out.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:as for a link to working mens clubs….REALLY?.....And if I were to give you one link or a dozen, would you know the acts?.....

Yes really. You claim many racist and homophobic acts are currently touring the country. You can't link me to a single one. And if I didn't know the acts, I would look them up on youtube.

Look, it's OK. You talked nonsense, I called you out, you cannot back up your bullcrap. That happens a lot. Just accept you were wrong, this is just making you look silly.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Mr G. you should try to get out more….life doesn’t stop at hove, there’s a big wide, wild world out there……yes working mens clubs still exist

Well it should be simple enough for you to post links to the "many" that have racist homophobes working there, shouldn't it? But you can't.

Because you are wrong.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:I find Boyle funny, even though it’s not fashionable among the “intelligentsia” but like it or not he tells racist and sexist jokes as do Carr and Sadowitz who I notice that you stubbornly refuse to refer to…..Just because they don’t make jokes a la Jim Davidson about Black people, doesn’t make them any less racist….

I don't think you know what racist and sexist means. I've seen all of those artists many times and not heard and of them be racist or sexist. Are you aware of a webernet site called youtube? can you link to any of them performing racist or sexist material?

No? didn't think so.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:I’m not a McDonalds eater or a trash TV watcher myself, but how many people would find that remark offensive?

I don't care. People are stupid. More people buy the sun than a decent paper.

TheLovelyDebbie wrote:Perhaps the next time you are performing at one of your sell-out shows you ask for a show of hands as to who eats at the Golden arches or watches X- factor and when they raise their hands may I suggest that you refund their money and remove them from your show, as no doubt they would be too dumb to appreciate your show or your crystalline wit.

At least I have sell out shows.

What do you do?

Oh yes, post nonsense on message boards and then get pwned.

Pick up your slippers at the door, gramps .

The horse isn't breathing anymore......

Your point is taken Mr Gilbert....It's also way past my bedtime anyhoo

Dustin, thank you for the video clip of Jeff Hobson. As a gay man I didn't find anything personally offensive in it. (I also watched his Egg Bag performance from the same show.) Nor did I find anything that insulted my boyfriend or denigrated my "tribe." In fact, it was refreshing to see a "nance" emerge as an unapologetic, unmitigated hero.

Richard, I do understand your objection to the broad cultural stereotypes that Hobson employs. However, I see that happen a lot in short-form theatre--whether it's Neil Patrick Harris camping it up to satirize the stereotype of gay men as theatre lovers, or David Ben drawing a curly moustache on a volunteer and having them exclaim "Ole!" to evoke L'homme Masque's nationality. Leaving aside the varying intents and degrees of quality in those examples, I see it as much the same thing.

I very much appreciate Matthew Field's comparison between Hobson and the artistry of Tommy Wonder. The contrast does make for some good contemplation. But I'll add that when I saw Hobson bring down an opera-house audience with nothing more than an egg, a bag and a deck of cards, I also believe I was witnessing conjuring of a high order.

Dustin, you mention having seen Hobson's act for several decades. I can imagine that a few decades ago, he received not a few laughs at the expense of his character. A decade ago he probably shocked and offended more people. Now--and speaking as someone who hasn't seen anything of his act until now--I see a very current, bold character. He giddily slips and slides all over the sexuality spectrum, and unabashedly flaunts an anything-goes demeanor, appropriating the cultural signifiers that allow him to juggle his audience's assumptions and expectations. (Whew...) In short--the Miley Cyrus of magic. Sans twerk.

We'll see how audiences respond when "The Illusionists" comes to Broadway this winter. To Jeff Hobson I say: You go girl.

A couple of observations; I have spent a short amount of time with Jeff, and found him to be excellent company. I've seen him many times on TV or video, and I'm not convinced that my autistic side would pick up that something was supposed to be insulting. Having said that, I remember watching a video with a gay friend around 92 or 93, and about five minutes in he said '_now_ I'm offended'.

As for Frankie, he and I started stand up at the same time (around 94) and there were only one or two clubs in Edinburgh at any one time (I can't remember if he played the club I ran for a bit). I can say that in those days he was _much_ funnier than he is now; there are some lines from those days that I still quote today. In person he is a very different character.

Marty, the only place we disagree is this: it would be cool if Hobson were gay, but he's not. (You cite Neil Patrick Harris, who is gay.)

Only African Americans can use the word "[censored]."

Only Jews can tell "Jew" jokes.

Only gay men can swish, camp it up, behave like a queen, and have it be funny. Otherwise it's no different to me than racism.

The real issue is that Hobson is very funny, and he seems to be getting a pass from people because of that.

Suppose I blacked up and did an incredibly funny magic act as a minstrel--would that be acceptable? No. No matter how funny or how skillful my magic was, or how well I controlled the audience to the peak of hilarity, it would not be acceptable. It would be reprehensible. And so Hobson's pretense of the most cliched parts of gayness just so he can get laughs must also be judged as reprehensible

Richard, so I take it you are offended by Neil Patrick Harris playing a Barney on "How I Met Your Mother?," a gay guy playing a caricature of a straight guy?

Don't be silly.

Hmmm ... but an interesting point. Isn't "Barney" a rather overdone caricature of a womanizing heterosexual?

But the stereotypically effeminate behaviors attributed to gay men have been intended to demean, ridicule and isolate. Hobson's performance is part of that legacy, whether or not it is intended.

In contrast, the Barneys of the world are an exaggerated ideal, the confident ladies man that every adolescent heterosexual aspires to become. This diminishes as straight men mature and become their own version of Barney, sometimes laughably so.

When considering fairness, I find it helpful to look at the balance of power, whether it's a matter of race, class, gender, sexuality or whatever. Who has the dominant/institutional power on their side?

A member of a privileged group who mocks a member of an oppressed group is abusing his/her power and being mean.

A member of an oppressed group who mocks a member of a more powerful group pretty much just bounces off without doing harm.

This is why various ethnic slurs voiced by white people are often hurtful, but there's no equivalent reciprocal slur to hurt them back. "N*gger!" is hurtful, but "Honkey!" bounces off.

Similarly, men denigrate women with the term "b*tch," but there's no equivalent reciprocal slur that carries the same weight against men. The words just bounce off, because men hold the dominant power.

Rich mock the poor -- that's cruel and unfair. Poor mock the rich -- the rich shrug it off. Got it?

Straight guy mocks a gay man -- that's mean, picking on the oppressed. Gay man mocks a straight man -- the armor of privilege protects the straight dude from harm; he doesn't care.

I hope this is helpful to think about: where does the power sit?

Ted M raises an important point. Another is that plays like "La Cage" and "The Nance" which include social commentary. This contrasts with Hobson's portrayal which is simply on the level of minstral-type humor, or dialect humor and which I consider buffoonery. It's low humor and "easy".

Hobson is a clever man and taking this route is, I believe, insulting to his audiences. To say nothing of the butt of his jokes.

I've had enough.

Matt Field

mrgoat wrote:

billmccloskey wrote:"A List Actors?....I would really hate to see your DVD Collection"

It is hard to get any more A list than Ian McKellan, our greatest living actor. I consider myself very fortunate to have seen Sir Ian in his prime on the London stage. In the 70's I saw him perform Romeo in Romeo and Juliet.

But you are right. He is not A list. He is A++++ list.

I saw him in Bent in London (twice) and when he played Iago opposite Willard White's Othello at The Other Place in stratford. I was a teenage goth with crimped hair and eyeliner. I waited to get his autograph afterwards and was so so so moved by his performance when he came out I just cried. He gave me a huge hug. I still, to this day, think me standing there in a Cure tshirt and buckle boots and eyeliner crying over shakespeare must have been an unusual but very satisfying moment for him. The hug was lovely.

He is astounding. His film work is great, but it is NOTHING compared to his presence on stage.

But I still think TheLovelyDebbie is just trolling.

I saw his Iago too. I have never forgotten it. And Willard White, with a voice that would melt chocolate.

Now if it's Shakespeare you're talking about I'd just like point out that my Bottom has been much admired in the provinces.

So, I guess no more Warner Oland or Sidney Toler.

No more Charley Chan, no more Amos and Andy, thank you.

No more racist stereotypes.

Matt Field