The Undergound?

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 27th, 2010, 9:44 pm

Talk about selective reading. Tone is accompanied by attitude.

I leave it to you to look up the definition.

Jim, now that the essay has been removed, I cannot post the full paragraphs that would put into full context my truncated sentence you are quoting. Im very disappointed that you of all people would stoop to such a misleading tactic. Congratulations.

Dustin

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 27th, 2010, 9:53 pm

If anyone wants to pull out a quote from the Ortiz essay then just type 'DOUBLE DEAL ORTIZ' into google. Then click on the cache for the second result given.

I don't understand how google caches work. Whatever they are I assume it is something which will disappear over the next couple of days...

Joe

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby AMCabral » October 27th, 2010, 10:14 pm

Dustin wrote: "Talk about selective reading. Tone is accompanied by attitude.

I leave it to you to look up the definition."

All I was trying to point out was that initially, the problem with the Ortiz essay seemed to be the perceived message of "Don't buy any new books!" followed by the ad absurdum argument that following that advice would've killed the evolution of literature back at the Code of Hammurabi. Then when it was pointed out that Eugene Burger made the same statement, the problem became the tone. Burger's warm, inviting and avuncular, and Ortiz is a smug jackass. I'm just trying to keep up. And failing, from the looks of it.

And while I appreciate that you feel that Eugene does a better job of indicating that there is merely a segment of magicians who need to hear the message while the rest of us are as smart as we think we are, if he didn't think a large enough segment of the magic population needed to hear it, he wouldn't have put it in his book.

-T

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 27th, 2010, 10:29 pm

I'll do this in bullet points:

Burger makes it clear that there are different groups and his message is aimed at one specific group--and he's not even too terribly hard on those folks.

Darwin Ortiz--in this piece--does not. He lumps us all into one group: "average magicians." And, just for good measure, he belittles them several times.

Attitude.

Tone.

Sentiment.

Clear enough?

If not, I quit. You win.

The piece is brilliant.

Finis.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Pete McCabe » October 27th, 2010, 10:30 pm

I read the essay, and my impression was that the thing he was arguing against was magicians who buy the next book (/trick/dvd/etc.) without taking the time to study the last one. The impression I got was that he would recommend that magicians read, absorb, think about, experiment with, etc. the last book you bought, and try to find the real value within it, which takes work. And then read the next book, but carefully, thoughtfully, deeply, etc.

But many people buy a book hoping to find the real value in a single cursory reading, and when they don't see it, they move on to the next book. The problem isn't the books, it's that they are trying to find something genuinely valuable by looking on the surface, when the real value lies underneath.

At least, this was my impression of what he meant. Regardless, I think there is much to recommend about this approach.

I noticed a similar thing happening to me several years ago regarding learning sleights. You see someone do a move, and it looks great, so you practice it a little. Only it doesn't look great, so you move on to the next move.

But what makes the move great isn't the move, it's how well the person did it. And if you never practice enough to get to that stage, you will never have a move that looks great.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby AMCabral » October 27th, 2010, 10:42 pm

Dustin: Okay.

-T

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jeff Eline » October 27th, 2010, 10:56 pm

I agree with Pete.

Ortiz write:
...if you want to escape the emotional roller coaster of the next-great-book syndrome. Dont buy a new magic book until you have finished reading the last one you bought.

Now I don't think it's too controversial to assert that those in our community that get all frothy for the next new/shiny/big release (book/dvd/trick), and we know this happens, should probably relax because the new 'something' won't scratch that itch. Maybe they should study what they already own. Stop searching for the next big thing and as Nike said, "Just Do It!"

And if you don't suffer from the "emotional roller coaster" as many don't (like it seems Dustin) than the essay's not for you.

I just don't see what the hubbub's all about. It's a perfectly reasonable assertion. People get so worked up over the smallest things.

(I also just read Berger's piece and they seem very similar.)

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Ryan Matney » October 28th, 2010, 2:53 am

Richard Kaufman said: "There is a lot of unpublished Vernon material and, at this point, it is likely to remain unpublished.

There is a LOT of unpublished Charlie Miller material and it, too, will likely remain unpublished.

Most of Dingle's material has been published. Certainly the best stuff.

There is a load of Jennings material not published yet, but I'll take care of that with the next two books of at least 500 pages each. Some material has been lost.

There is a load of unpublished Bruce Cervon material, all on video cassettes because that's how Bruce switched to keeping notes. I don't know of anyone who has the will to sift through it all, write it, and photograph or illustrate it when the book market is so poor."



Since nobody asked...Is the reason the Vernon and Miller material will never be published due to someone hoarding it or due to the marketplace for books?

Also, you say some Jennings material has been lost--do you mean an odd trick or two that Larry never really remembereed or took proper notes on or do you mean some of his famous cassettes have been lost?

Someone really should transcribe Cervon's magic before it is lost. Videotapes degrade. It would be a monumental task. Maybe it would make a nice column for a year in Genii--12 unpublished Cervon tricks. Assuming you had access to those tapes, of course.

Personally, I'd love to see Skinner's notebooks published in some form for two reasons: I personally think his routining and touches were just about the height of close-up magic and it's a selfish reason that I want to read all that I can.

But I also think he deserves a proper printed legacy of some sort. The Genii issue devoted to him was as close as he really got.
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 28th, 2010, 6:55 am

This thread is covering alot of different areas...

I just want to ask a couple of things about 'unpublished material'...

1) Sorry to repeat a question from before - but does anyone know if David Ben will be putting out more Dai Vernon effects in the future? Just seemed a possibility now that he has access to the Vernon Estate - what with all the unpublished documents and so forth...

2) As for the Bruce Cervon tapes. It would be good to get them transferred to DVD before they start to degrade. If documenting the videos is a big job - then surely a good compromise would be to split up the task among a number of people? I am sure you can find 50 trustworthy and knowledgable people in magic who would love to spend some time helping out. Once you have 50 or so people chipping in - a big job becomes alot more manageable.

Also - it might not be neccesary to go straight into accuratley documenting all the effects on the tapes. A detailed index/overview of all that is there would be a helpful first step...

On a sidenote - I find it amazing - that an organisation such as The Magic Castle wouldn't be spearheading this. I mean Bruce was a stalwart there for many decades. And on top of that - isn't the 'furthering the art of magic' or some other guff the whole point of places like The Magic Castle? An issue like this is more important than 99% of the other issues that orgainisations like The Castle, or IBM, or Magic Circle, or SAM spend their time worrying other...

Joe

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 28th, 2010, 7:44 am

Joe, David Ben is the one to ask about his intentions - and that's usually best done directly rather than in public/online.

As to the Ortiz online item, here's a link so folks can have access to that topic of discourse.

If it might help us get the Ortiz text interpretation issue moved toward more productive grounds - there is an addiction model in sales/marketing/economy which fosters dependency rather than competence and looking outside for some sort of mana to fall from the heavens to find what others call earned self respect.

Okay now back to wondering if some villain is trying to move the Magic Castle organization into the Harry Potter Hogwarts castle at some amusement park.

Those who care about this performing art and who have a lifetime of work in their art will give what they feel useful to those they trust and in that way the art will progress. Whether or not that satisfies the market of trick fans and the rabbits on their backs...
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 28th, 2010, 9:37 am

This quote from a previous thread on this forum about the new Ascanio books fits in nicely with Darwin Ortiz's essay. I really like the poem as well...

----------------------------------

The world of the amateur magus
Is marred by the thought of new pages
That will, in a dream,
Make his magic supreme;
So he'll wait for the next book for ages ... and ages ... and ages ...


Why don't I work on stuff from Ascanio volume 2 ... or Tamariz ... or my thousands of books that I've read once or twice, but need to return to, to bring some of the items I liked to performance standard?
Hmmmmmm
I better check the Libros de Magia website just one more time ..... just in case they've published Volume 3 in the last ten minutes ....
THEN I can get down to practice...


----------------------------------

Thanks to Alexander Crawford for his pre-emptive contribution to this thread!

Joe

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Ryan Matney » October 28th, 2010, 10:00 am

I don't think Bruce Cervon's tapes are exactly waiting for some group to save and preserve them. They are probably resting privatly with Bruce's widow or whomever she gave or sold them to.

I'm doubting it's a situation of free access for anyone that wants to publish them.
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby David Ben » October 28th, 2010, 10:21 am

Where do we begin?

With respect to Vernon material, the Vernon family has no unpublished manuscripts of Vernon's tricks or techniques. By and large, I help them deal with unauthorized use of Vernon material, image and products.

As for unpublished techniques and tricks, there are some. Most of these are found in the private notebooks and correspondence of others, people
who corresponded with Vernon, recorded personal notes on tricks and techniques that they saw him perform at a convention, lecture or mpromptu encounter, or gossiped about him in letters to mutual friends.

With the exception of perhaps one small unpublished manuscript written by Vernon about simple effects anyone can do, I can't recall off the top
of my head any other piece written by Vernon intended for publication.

The same applies to Charlie Miller. He really did put most of his best magic stuff in print. He did, however, have a fountain of knowledge and, like Vernon, acquired or developed hundreds of tips and touches that could provide a solution to a particular problem or elevate a technique,
trick or routine. We're really talking about finesse.

So, is there a lot of material unpublished? In my opinion, if you are talking about polished routines? No. If you are talking about finesse? Yes.

The problem with finesse, however, is that your work has to be of a certain level before you can actually understand it and apply it. It is great, of course, to read, and add to the collection, but that's not what it was really designed for.

Finesse is also so site or task specific that it takes an inordinate amount of time to write up and explain, and there are few in my opinion who have the time and knowledge base to do this. It is also a very small market that is interested in this work. My examination of Dad Stevens serves as an example. It will come out but, realistically, it will probably appeal to maybe fifty people. In my experience, the old Zen philosophical remark that the "master appears when the student is ready" holds true. I'm not talking about dedicated apprenticeship but the simple act of seeing someone who struggles with a piece and offering them a tip or demonstration to help them because you sense that they are ready for the information. I see this a lot, and not just from my perspective. I have seen the biggest names in magic take someone aside
and help them because they thought they were at a point where they could use the information. They did not hoard the information.

I'll talk about the Cervon material in a moment. Let me address, however, Darwin's piece. I haven't read it since it was first published but I recall agreeing with his sentiment. It is the same sentiment as expressed by Eugene and others. I, too, echo that sentiment but with different words. Although I love magic books and have far too many - yet as a collector, not nearly enough - my take or twist related to Darwin's advice is, "The day you stop looking for the ultimate magic trick is the
day you start becoming a performer."

The people that I admire as performers, both today and from the past, are those who can mystify and delight regardless of whatever trick is at hand. The model for me, purely in my mind, is Blackstone Sr. losing all of his props and entertaining a theatre audience with a series of handkerchief tricks. Great performers can take flawed material and make it sing. The first step in being able to do that is coming to the realization that any secret, technique or trick, published or unpublished, offers the same opportunity. I recall, for example, Michael Weber doing a thirty minute lecture at 31 Faces North on Crazy Cube, performing a half a dozen variations on the trick with the apparatus, and fooling some of the most well-posted magicians in the world repeatedly - and in an entertaining manner.

Which leads us to the "underground".

In the late 1970s I was fortunate enough to become friends with P. Howard Lyons, publisher of famed Ibidem. If any guy was the hub of the wheel for interesting and unpublished material from the 'underground', it was Howard. He corresponded with everyone and published what could be then considered some of the most creative and interesting close-up magic, mostly with cards, that had seen print.

I asked Howard outright about the existence of the "underground". He said that, if there was one, he wasn't part of it. People shared secrets because they enjoyed both the social network of like-minded individuals interested in a such a niche subject, and because they were proud of their latest discovery and wanted to share it with friends and a wider audience who could actually understand and appreciate the nuance or development. Magicians are the worst people at keeping secrets. They really want to tell their confrere's about the development or evolution of the item. In fact, I'd recommend that, if you really wanted to learn the work on something someone has shown you but not tipped, feign disinterest. Eventually they will open up because they want you to appreciate the significance of their idea or technique. Add to that
Vernon's famous advice - "Learn to use a knife and fork," meaning social grace, and you will learn so many "secrets" that you will soon develop genuine disinterest.

Of course, magicians can't help themselves. I, too, am guilty of spending lots of cash on books or manuscripts with the hope that their contents are commensurate with the cash. Very few are. We want to
believe that there is something out there, something that transcends our known grasp of the craft. The Hooker Rising Cards is a perfect example.
In reality, however, although I was pleased to see it, it wasn't very magical. I imagine it was/is mechanically ingenious and I say that because I have no idea of how it works. It wasn't very magical, however, because it was mechanical and there were enough 'tells' in the way that
it operated to inform any audience that it was mechanical, and not magic. My suspension of disbelief was punctured repeatedly. As a
performer, who wants to create magic, I'd take Robert-Houdin's rising over the Hooker Rising Cards any day of the week. (Please do not take
this as a criticism about the recreation, staging or performance of the Hooker Rising Cards by those involved. I applaud and support all of their efforts. I really do and am most appreciative of having experienced it.) The same holds true of "51 Faces North". Contrary to what some conspiracy theorists promulgate, Stewart's solution WAS
published in Penumbra. Nobody broke into Allan Slaight's home and stole the true secret or typed a faux-solution on Stewart's typewriter, or digitally cut and paste samples of Stewart's handwriting. It was/is as published, a convoluted solution. Perhaps that's why Stewart never wanted it published in the first place!

As for the Cervon material, I understand that Jim Patton has been authorized to screen the tapes and start the process of translating the material into prose. I know, however, having spent three years on Herb Zarrow's book, and with Herb's at hand assistance, it is a very difficult task.

Patience is required. It really is a labor of love.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jim Maloney » October 28th, 2010, 10:22 am

Not that I wish to prolong this discussion, but I do want to address one point:

Dustin said:
"Jim, now that the essay has been removed, I cannot post the full paragraphs that would put into full context my truncated sentence you are quoting. Im very disappointed that you of all people would stoop to such a misleading tactic. Congratulations."

I don't feel I was misleading at all. From the metaphor Darwin started the essay with (overweight people looking for the latest fad diet/drug/weight loss program) to the line I quoted, Darwin was quite clear in who he was addressing. I don't think that he needs to specifically outline other possible, equally valid options. By defining who he was talking to at the beginning, he automatically defined two groups: those who are looking at the next book to make them a better magician, and those who are not. Is it necessary to also outline that you might want the book as a collectible, or because you simply enjoy the author's other works, or whatever other reason you might have? No. If you're not looking to become a better magician, the essay is not for you.
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 28th, 2010, 10:28 am

? As if folks buy books to become worse magicians or to forget what they know and wish they didn't?

Addiction (that rabbit on the back jonesing for new tricks ) is its own problem -- as is a market which panders to such.

As far as I go in wondering about what Darwin wrote is that he used the word "book" as opposed to "item coming to market".
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 28th, 2010, 10:42 am

There have being some great contributions to this thread. So thanks for that - and thanks too for David Ben's piece. It really helped address alot of issues I have being curious about.

Thanks!

Joe

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jim Patton » October 28th, 2010, 6:56 pm

To reply to Joe McKay's concern: ALL the VHS video tapes that comprise Bruce's UNPUBLISHED notebooks have been converted to DVD.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Joe Mckay » October 28th, 2010, 7:00 pm

That is great to hear. I am really pleased that this task is being taken care of. And I can't imagine anyone better qualified...

Good luck!

Joe

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 29th, 2010, 1:48 am

Jim,

Youre right.

Darwin wrote, early in the piece, I suspect that many magicians during his analogynot metaphorof dieters to magicians. So, its not all magicians, just many (well, at least not yet).

While Ill happily admit that these five words exist in the piece (though he derails them later, as I will get to), I still take issue with his all-knowing attitude, which starts prior to those five words. For example, this passage (in speaking about dieters):

One can picture them opening the first product and discovering that, instead of offering a magic solution, it required diet and exercise. So they immediately tossed it aside and ordered the next product that they hoped would provide a miracle with no effort on their part. No doubt, they would then sit by the mailbox in breathless anticipation of how the new miracle product would transform their bodies.

He pictures and has no doubt that he knows exactly what all these people are thinking and doing. His use of words here is so derogatory toward heavy people that it borders on the contemptible. And even though I never did anything like order such products, as someone who has fought a weight issue most of my life I take a personal offense to his comments. Frankly, who is he to make heavy people some kind of example in the first place?

And hes just getting started.

Ironically, the better the book, the more work it will probably demand of the reader. Therefore, the less likely it is to be appreciated by the average magician.

Thats quite an accusation to make without any supporting argument whatsoever, dont you think? And apparently hes saying that average magicians are only likely to appreciate bad magic books.

The next line:

Even if you do put in the work, the book will only help you become a better magician. It wont transform your life. Its only a book.

Now note that his admonitions have turned from many magicians to the average magician andmore importantlyyou. He has now targeted this essay at the reader, not another group we are reading about. In short, he just made it personal. Now, as a man who has done a lot of writing, I cannot imagine this was a mistake on his part, but its possible. So it was either a mistake or it was intentional, theres not another possibility that I can think of. So I take it as intentional since he apparently has no qualms about publicly insulting people he doesnt know. After all, we readers are clearly not smart enough to know that magic books are just magic books and not life transforming miracles in the form of paper.

He continues:

When the average magician realizes this, disappointment inevitably sets in. This disappointment is usually expressed as, I really thought the book would be better than this. The feeling being expressed, however, is, Gee, my life is no different than it was the day before the book arrived.

Again, he presumes to know what the average magician thinks and even feels. I have never in my life met a magicianand I have met manywho thinks that a magic book would be life changing, but apparently he has. And he hasas I argued earlier (and in my previous posts)placed the class of magician (not to mention the reader) who thinks these sorts of things in the category of average magician.

Average magicians do a lot of different things, good and bad, but in this essay he has just killed the five words used earlier and lumps everyone togetherincluding the reader. And in case you didnt notice, that includes you, Jim. Try as you might to separate yourself from his attack, these are his words, not mine. Words mean things and you means you.

More from Mr. Ortiz:

Not long ago, magicians were awaiting the publication of Juan Tamarizs Mnemonica with the same desperation that tsunami survivors await the arrival of emergency aid.

Really?

His analogies are not clever in the least. In fact, I believe they should make a thoughtful person wince. Who else could have been a target of his cunning? How about someone waiting for a heart transplant? How about a quadriplegic waiting for stem cell research to find a cure?

What a guy!

After taking himself off the hook regarding hype with,

Nevertheless, I dont believe that most of the blame for the periodic outbreaks of next-book hysteria among magicians falls on the shoulders of authors, publishers, or dealers.

He takes aim at us again, this timeif you noticebroadening the audience further still:

At the merest whisper of some new book in the works magicians will take to the Internet to whip each other into a frenzy. Its the magicians themselves who produce ridiculously unrealistic expectations in their own minds for each new book on the horizon. [Emphasis as in original.]

You mean like when a Darwin Ortiz book is rumored to be in the works? Apparently this is only a bad thing when its someone elses book. He very easily could have used the Internet hype over his last two books as examples of this, but he chose to use Juan Tamarizs instead. Why is that? (Thats a rhetorical question.)

More insults from Mr. Ortiz:

I dont think that hype is at all the right word for what is going on here. A producer promoting his product with exaggerated claims is hype. A group of people stroking each other into an orgiastic frenzy isnt hype; its a circle j*rk.

Okay, I admit to using such imagery myself. But, in my defense, its usually a joke. This is no joke.

I could go on, but lets recap what we have so far:

Fat people are pathetic creatures who are breathlessly waiting for a miracle.

Many magicians are just like these pathetic creatures.

Many magicians include average magicians and you, the reader.

You think magic books will change your life.

You probably dont appreciate really good books (so by logical extension of that thought, you only appreciate the ones that suck).

Magicians are just like the victims of tragic events.

This is all a circle j*rk.

Well, on that we can agree.

Dustin

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 29th, 2010, 7:33 am

Jim Pattonw wrote: To reply to Joe McKay's concern: ALL the VHS video tapes that comprise Bruce's UNPUBLISHED notebooks have been converted to DVD.

Great news. To most intents and purposes the Cervon material is in the hands of a delegate and so that part of our history is taken care of. As to any release of the material etc... up to the delegate.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Chris Aguilar » October 29th, 2010, 4:28 pm

David Ben Wrote:

Let me address, however, Darwin's piece. I haven't read it since it was first published but I recall agreeing with his sentiment. It is the same sentiment as expressed by Eugene and others. I, too, echo that sentiment but with different words. Although I love magic books and have far too many - yet as a collector, not nearly enough - my take or twist related to Darwin's advice is, "The day you stop looking for the ultimate magic trick is the day you start becoming a performer."

---------

Thank you for such a thoughtful take on the subject David.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 29th, 2010, 8:26 pm

Yes: thoughtfully, respectfully, and even lovingly said.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Kent Gunn » October 30th, 2010, 2:21 am

Dustin,

When I read Darwin Ortiz' piece I imagined him writing this with a huge grin on his face.

I read irony, whimsy, hyperbole and a handful of other writer's devices. Above all he used exaggeration for comedic effect.

I don't know you except through this board here. I like reading the reviews you write in Genii. You do a darned fine job.

I sense some undercurrent of discord between the Genii faction and Darwin Ortiz. Forgive me if I'm unaware of decades of bad blood or something. I'm so far from the underground of magic I didn't even realize magicians had their own subway.

I suspect Mr. Ortiz was simply poking fun at HIMSELF. Reading his piece I sensed he himself had gotten book after book, regretting it as rather foolish. I don't know the man, perhaps he is some sort of autocratic pedant and hater of puppies and children.

Any expository notes for me, Dustin?

Did I completely misread your post?

Isn't it possible not everything should be analyzed to death?


KG

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 30th, 2010, 2:59 am

I have no "bad blood" whatsoever with Mr. Ortiz. I simply found this piece objectionable (and certainly not funny) and used his words--in context--to make my case.

Dustin

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 30th, 2010, 10:34 am

Kent, you don't know the person you're talking about. None of the generous attributes you suggest fit the subject.
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Kent Gunn » October 30th, 2010, 2:18 pm

Richard, Dustin,

Please, allow me to ramble a bit,

Never met Ortiz. I have bought each of his books in eager anticipation of the next big trick or set of tricks that would make me a great magician. If he publishes another one, I will buy it.

These days I'm an inveterate collector of magic books. Years ago I read every magic book I bought, cover-to-cover. I was raising a huge family (many children, the spouse wasn't huge!) on an enlisted sailor's paycheck. The one or two books I could afford in a good year were gems to me. When I found an author that I liked I would peruse the shelves of whatever magic shop I found for those authors.

Lorayne and Kaufman were the names I'd hunt for intially. Harry Allen recommended the first Ortiz book to me. He knew I primarily liked card magic. I ended up using several of the Ortiz routines for years. Still do a couple of 'em.

In my odd little cesspool of a brain I tended to canonize those three authors, along with Vernon and Harris. My wife got to go to a Harris lecture once. I was at sea. Still have his signed book though. Ran into RK a couple times as a kid, that was too long ago to count. Richard, you don't remember me. It was all to brief. I remember because when Coin Magic hit the shelves I went . . . Hey that's the skinny curly haired kid from Tannen's I met!



Flash forward thirty-five years, The huge family is grown and gone. Misplaced the wife as well. I'm a huge fat man (been to 300 but comin' back). I can buy all the goddamn magic books I want to. I have a room with wall-to-wall magic books. I haven't read any of them recently except for Vortex. (Read that book! It will change the way you think about and perform magic!!!) (Or I really liked Tom Stone's stuff and enjoy the read)

Okay I got a room full of magic books and I'm no world-class magician. Hell, I had better chops when I practiced three hours a day on the submarine. (I learned all of the riffle-stacking stuff in "At the Table" then. You can see a smidgen of it in the poker deal I do.)


I tend to deify that select group of magic writers; Lorayne, Kaufman and Ortiz. (If Karger and Starke were still around I'd deify them too!) These disembodied names on the spines of my magic books were not quite mortals, to me. They created these incredible magic tricks and taught them to me. I imagined them all ten feet tall and bullet-proof. I've gotten into several scraps on-line like this one, simply because I'm not tied into the magic underground.


I got to meet Richard at a WMS recently. He was charming and gladly took my money for a Genii subscription. I awkwardly tried to tell him how important his books were to me. I probably came off like an ass!

I've had many an internet-based discussion with the inestimable Harry Lorayne. I remain a huge fan. Close-up Card Magic is the [censored]!

Still haven't had the opportunity to run across Mr. Ortiz. I've seen him only via video tapes and DVDs. He doesn't come across as whimsical on the tapes, I will grant you that. Some of his magic plots are most certainly full of the stuff.

I reflexively think the best of authors whose work I truly love. Ortiz' contributions, FOR ME, are immense. If he tossed off some ill-tempered words at some point that doesn't mean much to me.

Dustin,

Although we've never met in person I expect you'll make it up to the GGG soon. The awesome little card you sent with some coins remains on the fridge. I consider you a friend I haven't gotten to shake hands with, just quite yet.

I've re-read the Ortiz piece. It's pretty damn dry. I agree with the THEME of what he's saying still.

I never thought the next magic book would transform my life or the way I did magic. That would be STUPID. There are no great secrets. There never will be. I think every one of us realizes it. This is why I read Ortiz' words as satire. The words he wrote, without that filter are really condescending. I know Ortiz is not stupid. He writes too well. I'm sticking with my perspective that he's poking fun at magicians in general. His closing paragraph is enough proof for me.

Picking on fat people in the initial paragraph raised a hackle for me as well.

I get the sense of the paper you have.

KG

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 30th, 2010, 2:22 pm

The Berglas book has the potential to transform your life. :)
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 30th, 2010, 2:41 pm

So Kent, the important question is, will you and I fit in the same room? :)

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Chris Aguilar » October 30th, 2010, 2:52 pm

Speaking of Ortiz essays, his Showing or Hiding Skill from Scams and Fantasies (which I suspect has sold through it's first print run) makes for a fun, interesting read.

Definitely (as most of his essays are in my view) food for thought whether you agree with his conclusions or not.

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 30th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Richard Kaufman: The Berglas book has the potential to transform your life. :)

He's tipped his diet and exercise plan? :D

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 30th, 2010, 3:00 pm

He has no diet and exercise plan, of course, just a way of performing magic that will elevate you above anyone else your audiences have ever seen. If you learn how to do it, it will change your life.
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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Kent Gunn » October 30th, 2010, 4:32 pm

Dustin,

Yeah, we'll fit. Just gotta pick a big room!

Richard,

I'll be buying the Berglas book. The deluxe editions . . . not for me. As soon as I see the working-man's edition, I'm in there like swimwear.

KG

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Re: The Undergound?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 30th, 2010, 7:10 pm

Thanks, Kent. I enjoyed meeting you. Look for ads in January or February.
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