Hypnotism - Some questions...

[Joe Mckay]

Hey everyone,

I hace been practicing magic for the past 15 years...

However - I want to ask some questions about hypnotism. This is an area that I know nothing about (as such I would appreciate any recommendations for learning more). But - I have some simple questions. Firstly - is Hypnotism real? By that I mean are people actually hypnotised in the way that we think they are? I always imagined Hypnotism to be a kind of 'Usual Suspects'/Keyser Soze type trick. ie. The greatest trick that hypnotists ever played was to convince others that hypnotism exists... As such - I always thought of stage hypnotism as a mixture of those who are playing along - those playing along (and too embarrassed to admit they are not really hypnotised) - and those who have being tricked into thinking that they have actually being hypnotised...

Like I say - I have no experience in this area. But - I would be fascinated to hear from those who have...

Are my intuitions correct or wrong?

All the best,

Joe

[Mark.Lewis]

I know all about this, as indeed I know about everything and when I have the energy I shall try to answer your question.

And yes. You have it right. Hypnotism is a load of baloney.

There. That should start an argument.

[Mark.Lewis]

Here is an extract from a book on stage hypnosis I am working on. The book will be published around 2049. The legendary hypnotist referred to was the fantastic and wondrous Paul Goldin who passed away recently.
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Before I leave this topic Id like to tell you a story. When I first started my performing career I asked a legendary stage hypnotist for advice. This fellow had retired from the stage and had become a hypnotherapist.

I looked him straight in the eye and asked him straight out Are the people on stage really hypnotised? Are they really in some sort of altered state of consciousness or are they just kidding me and themselves? My guru started to look uncomfortable and become evasive in his answers. However, I persisted and he gave in. He looked shiftily at his receptionist outside in the hallway then closed the door so she wouldnt hear the conversation. He then looked at me and proceeded in a few sentences to explain the key to stage hypnotism. And it was probably the most profound lesson I had ever heard or will hear on the subject. This is what he said. Look, I was a pioneer in this field. I was number one for about 30 years. In that 30 years I am quite sure I never hypnotized a single person on stage!

This was quite a shock to me and although I had pushed for the answer I was nevertheless stunned to receive it. One of the most legendary stage hypnotists of all time had just, in so many words, told me he had been faking it for 30 years! After I recovered I asked him Well, in that case, how do you make the people do all those crazy things? He stared at me and then uttered the key revelation which opened up a new career for me. You manipulate them, dont you? You do, of course manipulate them and Ive been
manipulating them ever since.

[Mark.Lewis]

Here is a You Tube video clip that James Munton arranged for me because I am incapable of such technical matters myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KooAZlDT ... 5&index=16

[Richard Kaufman]

I have a canary sitting on my shoulder.

[James Munton]

I always thought of stage hypnotism as a mixture of those who are playing along - those playing along (and too embarrassed to admit they are not really hypnotised) - and those who have being tricked into thinking that they have actually being hypnotised...

I think this is a very good analysis. However, I think if someone believes anything strongly enough then it becomes real. At least for them. Which is why both sides in the real/not real debate about hypnosis can be right. For me, this is one of the most intellectually fascinating things about hypnosis. It forces us to question what "real" means. It all starts getting very Buddhist.

[Mark.Lewis]

Richard. Be careful. Sometimes I say the canary has diahrrea. And I hope I spelled the dreadful word correctly.

[Mark.Lewis]

I always thought of stage hypnotism as a mixture of those who are playing along - those playing along (and too embarrassed to admit they are not really hypnotised) - and those who have being tricked into thinking that they have actually being hypnotised...

I think this is a very good analysis. However, I think if someone believes anything strongly enough then it becomes real. At least for them. Which is why both sides in the real/not real debate about hypnosis can be right. For me, this is one of the most intellectually fascinating things about hypnosis. It forces us to question what "real" means. It all starts getting very Buddhist.

Yes, indeed. I think Joe has it spot on. And thank God Danny Doyle is not on this thread.

[Joe Mckay]

I have discussed this topic with my Dad (who is neither a magician or a hypnotist. He is a Physics teacher.) He makes the point that there are some incredibly suggestible people in the world. Hard to put a figure on it - but maybe 1% of the population. These are the people who will make the best subjects. These people will also show up in other areas of life - such as entering dumb competitions, believing dumb infomercials, seeing 'ghosts', believing in 'psychics' and getting carried away with Religion...

Also - it is important to remember that a Stage Hypnotism show will often start with 20/25 volunteers. Then after the first few tests - the hypnotist will get rid of those who are not 'performing as well' as the others. This will then reduce the number of people on stage to the 5 best subjects. Often you will mis-remember the show as being five volunteers who were hypnotised. Forgetting that another 20 were sent back to their seats.

Another point is this. A circular belief is created by those on stage. They each observe the crazy stuff that the others are doing and assume that the others are far more hypnotised than they are. This encourages them to either 'play along' or believe that the process is genuine and it is only a matter of time before they will 'go back under'. What they don't realise is that the others on stage are thinking the exact same thing...

Belief is an interesting thing. The smartest thing my best friend ever said was that you will never see a ghost unless you believe in them. Eat that Wittgenstein!

Joe

PS I should add that I think Hyonotism should be considered a branch of magic. You don't make anything disappear and you don't saw a lady in half. But what you do do is this. You make the phenomena of 'hypnotism' appear real when in fact it is baloney. A bit like making 'mindreading' appear genuine during a mentalism show.

Derren Brown discusses this in his book for the public (TRICKS OF THE MIND). What I don't understand is how a guy can think he sees an elephant in his bedroom after a show. This is an example that Derren gives in the book and I can't make sense of it...

[Mark.Lewis]

A little more than 1% I think. Probably around 20% I would say make really good subjects although virtually anybody can be "hypnotised" for want of a better word. But around 20% will be really good.

That is why hypnotists like large audiences (apart from the likelihood of a bigger fee). The bigger the audience the easier it is to find the "hot" ones.

[Joe Mckay]

So - I am curious. I reckon I have some idea of what goes on during a hypnotism show. Would that knowledge be enough to make me invulnerable to being hypnotised?

Joe

PS This is a big subject - but I think 'circular beliefs' are a powerful thing and pop up in all corners of life. From the very act of 'falling in love' downwards...

[Mark.Lewis]

Nobody can be hypnotised if they don't want to be. All hypnosis is self hypnosis. I can post a few extracts from my book explaining the matter if you are that interested.
I actually have a course on stage hypnosis for sale if you are REALLY interested. A mere $150. Three DVDs and an audiotape. James Munton learned how to do a hypnosis show from it. One of his shows was televised.

[Joe Mckay]

Something else I want to mention. I think the only people who are 'hypnotised' are those watching the show. They are fooled into thinking people are actually being hypnotised. The show in effect takes place in the minds of those watching - and they each perceive the show in different ways and visualise a process which isn't real. As such - it is they who are the suggestible ones...

Wheels within wheels...

Just my thoughts,

Joe

[Mark.Lewis]

Here is the funny thing. Many, many stage hypnotists actually believe they are hypnotising people. Probably the majority. I have noticed however that the really good ones know it is a load of cobblers.

The three best hypnotists I have ever seen work were Lorde Payne, Paul Goldin and Barry Sinclair. Only Barry is still alive and active.

There are two schools of thought where hypnosis is concerned. The state theorists and the non-state theorists. The former believe the phenomena is real and the latter believe it doesn't. I belong to the latter school of thought.

The best book on the non state theory is "They call it hypnosis" by Robert Baker.

As far as the audience is concerned one third will believe in the trance state, one third will be sceptical and one third will be non-commital. It is the job of the hypnotist to even out all three categories as much as he can.

The most important thing is for the subjects to LOOK hypnotised. I have seen many shows where this is lacking and the sceptics are doubly suspicious.

[James Munton]

I am happy to endorse Mark's DVDs. You can literally go and do a show right after watching them - I did!

[Mark.Lewis]

Here is another extract from my as yet unwritten book on the subject
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Let me explain what I believe happens on stage. I cant speak for what happens in one to one therapy situations since that is not where my level of expertise lies at the present time. I believe that the people who come up on stage all do what they do for different reasons. One person may be an exhibitionist and love showing off, still another may be desirous of experiencing the hypnotic state for reasons of curiosity, another again may be interested because he or she has a weight problem or wishes to give up smoking and is wondering whether an insight into hypnosis will help, still another is simulating a trance state because he wants to please the hypnotist. To go off on a temporary tangent, with regard to this simulation of hypnosis, I treat such volunteers according to their acting ability. If they are good actors and really look as if they are hypnotised I will keep them on stage; if they are bad actors that give the appearance of faking it I will send them back to the audience.

Anyway my point is that people have all sorts of reasons for doing things on stage. Very often, I believe the subjects con themselves into believing that they are hypnotized. Self delusion, basically. They think they are hypnotized and they consequently act in a manner that they think hypnotized people would be expected to act in. This is helped along by the unfamiliar stage situation and environment. They are in a stage of hypnosis because they believe they are! Of course all this may be a matter of semantics and this state of self delusion is in and of itself, hypnosis. I was once criticized for this theory. A state theorist said I was being too simplistic. Perhaps so, but often obvious truths tend to be quite simple. Intellectuals sometimes cant see the wood for the trees.

Anyway, the important thing from an entertainers point of view is that hypnosis works on stage. People will do strange things for whatever reason. It is not really the concern of the entertainer whether the word hypnosis should be in inverted commas or not. I would recommend the student study and read all he can about the subject so he can form his own theories but in the end, for practical purposes it doesnt really matter a whole lot. The key thing is to put on a good show.

[James Munton]

Thank you, James, for endorsing my course.

You are welcome, Mark. It was my pleasure.

[Mark.Lewis]

I shall thank you when you endorse my wonderful dice trick and the choo choo train trick.

I will be endorsing your marketing course if it turns out to be good. I never endorse something just because someone is a friend. I have to really like the product. So far it is too early to tell so I can't say anything yet. I will merely say for now that it if works for me it will work for anyone. I will report progress or lack of such as I go on.

[James Munton]

Mother, if you insist on bringing up your awful Choo Choo Train Wreck I might say things that will get me banned again.

For some reason Richard doesn't like it when I am rude to you, so can we please avoid all mention of that unpleasant topic.

[Mark.Lewis]

Quite right too. YOu shouldn't be rude to me in the first place.
I am supposed to be your student, remember? You must encourage me. I must admit that I was doing well on your course until I was traumatised by the words "Customer Relationship Management"
I had to close the computer down and go to bed in fright when I read those dreaded words. I felt quite ill.

However I did recover and felt quite proud of myself and soldiered on. But now I have come up against a more horrific phrase and it has nearly knocked me out for the count. The very words "Search Engine Optimisation" has left me a quivering wreck.

The only thing that is saving me is the most excellent feature you have on your course which nobody else has. That is the comments section. I can tell you what a mess I am in and then you can say nice things to help me recover from the mess.

As I say, if your course will work with me it will work with anybody. I shall keep trying and report on my success or failure.

I can assure everyone that if it succeeds with me then it will be the most remarkable magic marketing course of all time. Up to now this stuff has been quite beyond me.

[James Munton]

Of course it will work. It worked for me!

For anyone who would like to know what Mark has been talking about, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A74I9PtNLI